For Mormons - How Much Do You Really Know About Joseph Smith?

[TOmNossor]

I am in the middle of an expose of Mormonism called “The Godmakers” by Ed Decker and Dave Hunt. I realize that Hunt is as anti-Catholic as they come, so I read his book with a grain of salt, thinking if he treats Mormon doctrine the way he treats Catholicism, this book will be a waste of time rather than edifying. Well, many of the assertions in the book have been confirmed right here in this thread.

Boomerang,
I have noticed the same thing. Hunt and those like him treat Catholicism and Mormonism the same way and this thread has volumes in common with their methodology.
A former Catholic priest long before he left the Catholic faith (Father Jordan Vajda) made a similar observation and I couldn’t agree more with him:

More to the point though, as regards the underlying motive for this thesis, was my eventual perception that one connection between the Catholic Church and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints lay in the fact that those who sought to deny the label “Christian” to the LDS Church were, more often than not, the very same people who would then turn around and attempt to deny this label to the Catholic Church—with the same reasons often being used in both instances to justify the conclusion. And since it was easy enough for me to see through the many half-truths, misunderstandings, and even outright errors alleged against the Catholic Church, I suspected that similar critiques leveled against the LDS Church—as to its “non-Christian” status—were equally flawed.

Now, I am not saying that there are necessarily things that are untrue from Hunt about Catholicism or Mormonism. I would say virtually all of the things said there and here have seeds of truth. But, at best they are custom chosen for their faith destroying effect. It is the way of the anti-Catholic and the anti-Mormon. And it works!!!
I am glad you see the similarities.
Charity, TOm

 

[Stephen168]

I am in the middle of an expose of Mormonism called “The Godmakers” by Ed Decker and Dave Hunt. I realize that Hunt is as anti-Catholic as they come, so I read his book with a grain of salt, thinking if he treats Mormon doctrine the way he treats Catholicism, this book will be a waste of time rather than edifying. Well, many of the assertions in the book have been confirmed right here in this thread. What really hit me was the Mormon adulation of Adam and Eve. You remember the two sinners in the Garden who disobeyed God and brought death and sin into the world? Those two! And they place them above the Blessed Virgin? This is Luciferian to the max. I hope and pray that all Mormons will be enlightened as to the origin and nature of their religion.

Yes, it is odd that Christians see the sin of Adam as something, like all sin, bad; Mormons celebrate it.

The other thing which is confirmed in this thread is that Mormons do not know as much about their history as they claim, and what they do know they can ‘feel’ it to be true and that will change the truth of it. This some practice is use to ‘correct’ many false claims of Joseph Smith

 

[TexanKnight]

The Mormons here know all about the stuff in the OP. They have studied it and have accepted it…like we accept things like the Priest Scandal, or other things in our past.

I believe there are Mormons who are unaware of these things…and they become disillusioned when they discover them.

But to those who have found solace and peace in the LDS Church, they overlook or accept the warts

 

[Chris-WA]

The Mormons here know all about the stuff in the OP. They have studied it and have accepted it…like we accept things like the Priest Scandal, or other things in our past.

I believe there are Mormons who are unaware of these things…and they become disillusioned when they discover them.

But to those who have found solace and peace in the LDS Church, they overlook or accept the warts

I suppose the bottom line question is how big are the warts and how bad are they? When it comes to Mormonism, most LDS either have very little knowledge of the warts or somehow are able to put them on the shelf and pretend they don’t exist. I do think this is slowly changing, however, as more and more LDS become aware of the very serious historical problems. It will be very interesting to see how the Mormon church leadership will deal with this problem as it accelerates. I know they have recently put out some essays on some of these topics on their website in an effort to be more upfront with the membership, but I doubt they will be able to disclose too much for fear of causing a mass exodus.

 

[SJMIII]

I am in the middle of an expose of Mormonism called “The Godmakers” by Ed Decker and Dave Hunt. I realize that Hunt is as anti-Catholic as they come, so I read his book with a grain of salt, thinking if he treats Mormon doctrine the way he treats Catholicism, this book will be a waste of time rather than edifying. Well, many of the assertions in the book have been confirmed right here in this thread. What really hit me was the Mormon adulation of Adam and Eve. You remember the two sinners in the Garden who disobeyed God and brought death and sin into the world? Those two! And they place them above the Blessed Virgin? This is Luciferian to the max. I hope and pray that all Mormons will be enlightened as to the origin and nature of their religion.

DEAR boomerang,

show me one "church" that has no wrong doing. The Catholic Church has Stastically murdered over 64 million people from the 11 century through the 18th century, because they differed from the "holy church". The Catholic church IS SAID TO HAVE aided Hitlers war criminals, laundered drug money, AND HAS COMMITTED MANY OTHER UN GODLY ACTS. Even Jesus rebuked his mother on 2 occasions in the bible, yet the catholic church makes prayors not only to her but so called saints. This is against Gods first commandment.  I have met many Mormans, and perhaps the "prophet smith" was a fake, he produced a great group of people whose "fruit" is unlike anyone i have yet to discover. They dont pray to J. Smith, but directly to God in Jesus's name. They develop a direct relationship with God, as its written in the Bible. There are no false idols, memorized prayers that carry no individual meaning, making up new people to pray to to keep people faithful. Most importantly, they act the same out of church as they do in church. they don't have to be told to give a sign of peace, they live it. Most of all, they don't Judge other religions....they leave that to Jesus. They want everyone to enter the book of life, and do this in and out of their meeting place.
 All churches have pro's and cons. Its easy and human nature to pick apart the things that people don't agree with. Its hard to stand out against society. the hard part is to accept everyone's differences, appreciating their "fruits" not the faults of one individual.

 

[Stephen168]

DEAR boomerang,

show me one "church" that has no wrong doing. The Catholic Church has Stastically murdered over 64 million people from the 11 century through the 18th century, because they differed from the "holy church". The Catholic church IS SAID TO HAVE aided Hitlers war criminals, laundered drug money, AND HAS COMMITTED MANY OTHER UN GODLY ACTS. Even Jesus rebuked his mother on 2 occasions in the bible, yet the catholic church makes prayors not only to her but so called saints. This is against Gods first commandment.  I have met many Mormans, and perhaps the "prophet smith" was a fake, he produced a great group of people whose "fruit" is unlike anyone i have yet to discover. They dont pray to J. Smith, but directly to God in Jesus's name. They develop a direct relationship with God, as its written in the Bible. There are no false idols, memorized prayers that carry no individual meaning, making up new people to pray to to keep people faithful. Most importantly, they act the same out of church as they do in church. they don't have to be told to give a sign of peace, they live it. Most of all, they don't Judge other religions....they leave that to Jesus. They want everyone to enter the book of life, and do this in and out of their meeting place.
 All churches have pro's and cons. Its easy and human nature to pick apart the things that people don't agree with. Its hard to stand out against society. the hard part is to accept everyone's differences, appreciating their "fruits" not the faults of one individual.

Welcome to Catholic Answers Forum.
I’m glad you came here to learn about the Catholic Church. You might learn more about history and reason as you investigate.

 

[Miriam1947]

DEAR boomerang,

show me one "church" that has no wrong doing. T**he Catholic Church has Stastically murdered over 64 million people from the 11 century through the 18th century, because they differed from the "holy church". The Catholic church IS SAID TO HAVE aided Hitlers war criminals, laundered drug money, AND HAS COMMITTED MANY OTHER UN GODLY ACTS. Even Jesus rebuked his mother on 2 occasions in the bible, yet the catholic church makes prayors not only to her but so called saints. This is against Gods first commandment. **

This is complete fabrication and since you are ignorant of the facts I am sure no one here would hold it against you. READ and learn please.

I have met many Mormans, and perhaps the “prophet smith” was a fake, he produced a great group of people whose “fruit” is unlike anyone i have yet to discover. They dont pray to J. Smith, but directly to God in Jesus’s name. They develop a direct relationship with God, as its written in the Bible. There are no false idols, memorized prayers that carry no individual meaning, making up new people to pray to to keep people faithful. Most importantly, they act the same out of church as they do in church. they don’t have to be told to give a sign of peace, they live it. Most of all, they don’t Judge other religions…they leave that to Jesus. They want everyone to enter the book of life, and do this in and out of their meeting place.

Your anti Catholicisim is so extreme that you do not even seem to know that Mormons believe God was once a man and progressed to his exalted being.

 All churches have pro's and cons. Its easy and human nature to pick apart the things that people don't agree with. Its hard to stand out against society. the hard part is to accept everyone's differences, appreciating their "fruits" not the faults of one individual.

 

[Porknpie]

DEAR boomerang,

show me one "church" that has no wrong doing. The Catholic Church has Stastically murdered over 64 million people from the 11 century through the 18th century, because they differed from the "holy church". The Catholic church IS SAID TO HAVE aided Hitlers war criminals, laundered drug money, AND HAS COMMITTED MANY OTHER UN GODLY ACTS.

Is this where you are getting your information? See link here. Please provide your sources for each contention above.

Welcome, but I fear your time will be short on CAF.

Try staying on one subject and provide substantiation for your claims.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Is this where you are getting your information? See link here. Please provide your sources for each contention above.

Welcome, but I fear your time will be short on CAF.

Try staying on one subject and provide substantiation for your claims.

Yep cleaned up and banned now.

 

[PaulDupre1]

Yep cleaned up and banned now.

Shoot! I was hoping we would have the time to teach him a thing or three.

I am reminded of Saul of Tarsus…the bigger they are, the harder they fall.

Paul (who fell pretty hard about 14 years ago)

 

[Porknpie]

Shoot! I was hoping we would have the time to teach him a thing or three.

I am reminded of Saul of Tarsus…the bigger they are, the harder they fall.

Paul (who fell pretty hard about 14 years ago)

Perhaps he will stick around and use the Library on the CAF landing page. It has many great articles that will dispel the false beliefs that he has in his head. I should add that the search tool is terrific.

I do believe that the history channel is at least partly to blame.

That, and he has listened to someone, who listened to someone, who listened to someone, who conveyed the teachings of the Catholic Church in error.

For those who started the false trail, the History Channel is likely not at fault.

 

[dcana]

Mormons believe that the Gospel of Jesus Christ was taught from Adam on down, in cycles of apostasy and restoration. They also believe that the organization of the Church (i.e. apostles, prophets, etc), has been restored.

That’s…an interesting fact I was unaware of. How was the Gospel of Jesus Christ taught before Jesus Christ came and taught His Gospel?

Let’s see what Paul has to say on the matter:

In many and various ways God spoke of old to our fathers by the prophets; but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.

I’ll go with Paul.

 

[RebeccaJ]

That’s…an interesting fact I was unaware of. How was the Gospel of Jesus Christ taught before Jesus Christ came and taught His Gospel?

Let’s see what Paul has to say on the matter:

In many and various ways God spoke of old to our fathers by the prophets; but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.

I’ll go with Paul.

Mormonism has a gnostic streak. There’s lost and hidden things you have no knowledge of, that can only be found in Mormonism. Such as, Adam and Eve were taught the Gospel of Jesus Christ by their Heavenly Father. (The Gospel of Jesus Christ being something different than what Paul taught.)

 

[dcana]

Mormonism has a gnostic streak. There’s lost and hidden things you have no knowledge of, that can only be found in Mormonism. Such as, Adam and Eve were taught the Gospel of Jesus Christ by their Heavenly Father. (The Gospel of Jesus Christ being something different than what Paul taught.)

Thanks, Rebecca, for your response. Does that have something to do with the large Masonic influence? The Masons are all about “secret knowledge”. It would seem logical.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Thanks, Rebecca, for your response. Does that have something to do with the large Masonic influence? The Masons are all about “secret knowledge”. It would seem logical.

For Mormons, hidden truths can be found most everywhere. Early Mormons took on a bit of this, a bit of that, including Freemasonry and Christianity. The true knowledge of what all these disparate things mean, when put together, and how to put them together, is only found in Mormonism. Everyone else just has the pieces. Christians some pieces. Freemasons some pieces. Judaism some pieces. Etc.

 

[Lion_of_Narnia]

I was looking for a book on the history of the mormon religion, something that was scholarly instead of a hatchet job (like I don’t want to read the Bart Ehrman version of an anti-mormon book, but just a legit history book). I was looking around and thinking “One Nation under gods” by Richard Abanes looked good. Would anyone recommend this or another book?

Mr Abanes used to post here–his book is a pretty good overall treatment, abeit from an evangelical protestant perspective. He thinks Catholics ARE Christians, which is to the good.

 

[OctobersOwn]

No one is really stating this (since most study about Mormonism is done by Mormons) but this religion is falling apart.

For them to post articles (albeit quietly) about all the inconsistencies, mistakes and more bizarre beliefs (all while avoiding blame, since that would mean prophets can’t speak for God) indicates that they’re dealing with a sinking ship.

The membership levels are treading water. The ACTIVE memberships are shrinking much more than a 90,000 army of young men around the world can sustain. The internet is the greatest tool against convincing a person that the Church was “restored” to a 19th century con-man and manipulator.

 

[iepuras]

No one is really stating this (since most study about Mormonism is done by Mormons) but this religion is falling apart.

For them to post articles (albeit quietly) about all the inconsistencies, mistakes and more bizarre beliefs (all while avoiding blame, since that would mean prophets can’t speak for God) indicates that they’re dealing with a sinking ship.

The membership levels are treading water. The ACTIVE memberships are shrinking much more than a 90,000 army of young men around the world can sustain. The internet is the greatest tool against convincing a person that the Church was “restored” to a 19th century con-man and manipulator.

Interesting that you bring this up. The LDS church used to hire janitors to clean church buildings. A few years ago, the janitors were laid off and now members clean the buildings, on top of all the other work they do to make the ward work. Members are being asked to do more and more landscaping work and janitorial work at the temples. Many office type jobs are being replaced with senior missionaries. It makes me wonder if there are cash flow problems. It is difficult to know because the LDS church does not release financial information (unless required to by law). Members have no idea how much is collected and how much is spent to run everything even at the local level.

The LDS church recently announced a net of 10 new missions, two being in Utah.

deseretnews.com/article/865619186/Creation-of-11-new-missions-indicates-the-work-continues-apace.html

Are there really that many non-Mormons moving to Utah? Or is there more going on?

Yes, there is a net influx of people moving to Utah. How many of them are not Mormon? Certainly there are some, but I doubt that the vast majority are.

How many of these new missionaries being sent to Utah are going to focus on reactivation efforts and working with teens and young adults to help keep them in the fold? In my last years in the LDS church, the missionaries in my ward focused on inactive Mormons on the ward list rather than teaching investigators of Mormonism. I think the new missions in Latin America could also be to address retention problems.

LDS general authorities have been addressing the problem of people leaving the last couple of years in General Conference. It has also been the topic of articles in LDS church magazines. If it wasn’t a problem, LDS leaders wouldn’t be addressing it in subtle and not so subtle ways.

 

[Jerusha]

Mormonism has a gnostic streak. There’s lost and hidden things you have no knowledge of, that can only be found in Mormonism. Such as, Adam and Eve were taught the Gospel of Jesus Christ by their Heavenly Father. (The Gospel of Jesus Christ being something different than what Paul taught.)

Gnostic STREAK?? OK… Actually, belief in pre-Christian Christianity can be found in Emanuel Swedenborg’s writings (he was a real nutcase), and in Milton’s Paradise Lost.

My senior English teacher refused to teach Paradise Lost, because it presents bad theology. She also regretted that she couldn’t teach Geoffrey of Monmouth’s * History of the Kings of England* because it was originally written in Latin. She was a good Catholic lady, and methinks she might have led me to some of my findings.

I lost my internet connection for a while, and am back to writing. Just started feeling frustrated, so took a shower to add humidity to my cave.

 

[Theo520]

Interesting that you bring this up. The LDS church used to hire janitors to clean church buildings. A few years ago, the janitors were laid off and now members clean the buildings, on top of all the other work they do to make the ward work. Members are being asked to do more and more landscaping work and janitorial work at the temples. Many office type jobs are being replaced with senior missionaries. It makes me wonder if there are cash flow problems. It is difficult to know because the LDS church does not release financial information (unless required to by law). Members have no idea how much is collected and how much is spent to run everything even at the local level.

I find it encouraging to see so much volunteer work, and not a negative. I can’t think of a better way for members to be active in their Church. I recall helping my mother with both funeral dinners and her regular shift on our parish soup kitchen. They both are living their faith.

Where the money goes is separate from volunteering IMHO. Do you know any good scandals on high level mormons living ‘fat off the hog’, like some televangelists do?

The LDS church recently announced a net of 10 new missions, two being in Utah. deseretnews.com/article/865619186/Creation-of-11-new-missions-indicates-the-work-continues-apace.html

Are there really that many non-Mormons moving to Utah? Or is there more going on?

Yes, there is a net influx of people moving to Utah. How many of them are not Mormon? Certainly there are some, but I doubt that the vast majority are.

How many of these new missionaries being sent to Utah are going to focus on reactivation efforts and working with teens and young adults to help keep them in the fold? In my last years in the LDS church, the missionaries in my ward focused on inactive Mormons on the ward list rather than teaching investigators of Mormonism. I think the new missions in Latin America could also be to address retention problems.

LDS general authorities have been addressing the problem of people leaving the last couple of years in General Conference. It has also been the topic of articles in LDS church magazines. If it wasn’t a problem, LDS leaders wouldn’t be addressing it in subtle and not so subtle ways.

I would also expect encouraging reactivation is a high priority for any Utah missionaries. Whether one agrees or not, it’s apparent the primary purpose of going on a mission is to instill (pound) the faith deep in the missionary, so it sticks with them through the normal trials and hardships of life.