For Mormons - How Much Do You Really Know About Joseph Smith?

[zaffiroborant]

When I attended the local parish here in my small desert town, we had a gal who came in one day a week and cleaned the church and the priest’s house and office. When we heard that she was going to quit, I went to our priest and asked him if he would consider letting me have the job (it paid very well) of cleaning the church and his house. He told me that we wouldn’t be paying anyone to clean, that the members of the parish would be taking that responsibility and volunteering. Same with the outside, they rely on parish members to cut the grass and clean the grounds, plant and water flowers and bushes etc. fix broken things and do all maintenance.
So, it’s not just the LDS who are relying on church members to clean and maintain buildings and grounds, it’s also the Catholic Church.

This is true, but, with the Catholic Church, it varies by parish. Some can afford it, others cannot. With the lds, it was world wide, across the board, every single facility.

Big difference.

I see the parish didn’t fire the woman to save money, they took a much kinder approach.

 

[zaffiroborant]

I think it has nothing to do with whether they can ‘afford it’

Increased service work by members is the very smart route for all churches.
When I was a child, my parents could afford a dishwasher yet they decided it was the job of their children, we rotated in shifts. They felt there were benefits of this serve work that far outweighed time saved and simplicity of just using a dishwasher.

They bought the dishwasher when I went off to college

Cleaning dishes is the same service whether you use a dishwasher or do them by hand. My husband can help more of our neighbors by using a snowblower in the am before work than he ever could with the oh so far more beneficial hand shoveling.

 

[iepuras]

I think it has nothing to do with whether they can ‘afford it’

Increased service work by members is the very smart route for all churches.
When I was a child, my parents could afford a dishwasher yet they decided it was the job of their children, we rotated in shifts. They felt there were benefits of this serve work that far outweighed time saved and simplicity of just using a dishwasher.

They bought the dishwasher when I went off to college

Did you read post #440 at all? Do you not appreciate how volunteer service in the LDS church and other churches are handled differently?

However, given that the LDS church keeps their congregations small, almost everyone already is given a job (calling) by the bishop. Members do not choose whether to serve at all or in what capacity. Granted, members can say no to an assignment, but it is frowned upon and considered to be bad form in LDS culture. Every LDS ward I have been a part of has assigned people to clean the building. It is an assignment, not a volunteer service opportunity. Of course, individuals can shirk the assignment, but it is an assignment nonetheless.

Again, Mormons already donate a lot of their time and talent just to keep the congregation running. I think it is asking a bit much to ask people who already give so much of their time to spend additional time away from their families to clean a church building when these same families are already donating 10% of their income as tithing!

Again, I think the laying off of janitors is a sign of cash flow problems, despite the fact that LDS members already give so much of their time, talent and hard-earned money to the LDS church. The laying off of janitors, along with the essays and recent increase in General Conference talks and Ensign (LDS magazine) articles on dealing with family members who leave the LDS church and tithing, is, to me, indicative of a problem of declining active membership.

 

[Kount_C]

I like the Mormon church. So much that I’m actually about to get a blessing from two missionaries. But I wont convert, I’m waiting to see who heals me. The Catholic church, or the Mormon Church. Then my decisions will be made.

 

[twopekinguys]

Luke 4:12

And Jesus answering, said to him: It is said: Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

Deut 6:16

Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God, as thou temptedst him in the place of temptation.

Some of the other bible translations use the word “test” instead of “tempt”.

Choosing your faith based upon which one “heals” you is not a healthy proposition.

 

[Theo520]

I think both would agree that any healing will come from your prayers and God himself.

I like the Mormon church. So much that I’m actually about to get a blessing from two missionaries. But I wont convert, I’m waiting to see who heals me. The Catholic church, or the Mormon Church. Then my decisions will be made.

 

[Porknpie]

I like the Mormon church. So much that I’m actually about to get a blessing from two missionaries. But I wont convert, I’m waiting to see who heals me. The Catholic church, or the Mormon Church. Then my decisions will be made.

Kount,

You are thinking in the flesh, not the Spirit.

While God can heal whomever he chooses, it is not his greatest miracle.

What is his greatest miracle?

• healing the lame? No.
• giving sight to the blind? No.
• feeding 5,000 with a few fish? No.
• walking on water? No.
• raising Lazarus? No.

His greatest miracle Kount is his forgiving our sins and restoring sanctifying grace to our souls. This enables for us to be saved. You need a Priest having the sacrament of Holy Orders to do so.

You can not get this in the Mormon faith. Nor, can your receive the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist (you can receive bread and water).

You can get an empty promise of your own planet with the possibility of multiple wives and billions of spirit children. And you have to accept that there was a great apostasy in the Church, a complete falling away from the true faith, restored by Joseph Smith 1,800 years later. Yes, during this time of a “great apostasy”, the Church that was apostate was able to discern the 27 books of the New Testament out of several hundred writings along with 46 books of the Old Testament.

Kount, it’s best to live in the Spirit and stay with the Church established by Christ and receive all the sacrament instituted by him … but it’s your life, your soul, and your call.

 

[Marie5890]

Nothing wrong with the miracle of physical healing nor the faith excersizes to that end. But it’s not wise to use it as the proof test. Makes for a weak faith in the long run.

It’ takes great faith to stand at the foot of the Cross and remain there.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I like the Mormon church. So much that I’m actually about to get a blessing from two missionaries. But I wont convert, I’m waiting to see who heals me. The Catholic church, or the Mormon Church. Then my decisions will be made.

No matter how your little experiment goes here, God loves you. Seek first God’s Kingdom.

 

[adamhovey1988]

You could get your history all lined up nice and neat, and it wouldn’t matter to me. (Not that I think that is possible.) I left Mormonism for atheism because I didn’t believe in your God, and still do not.

Not really. I assume you are referring the essays the LDS Church has published on their website recently. If so, sure, they’re a step in the right direction but they still omit what suits an agenda. And, Joseph Smith’s polygamy is hidden, still.

Mystery, in theological terms, is not us throwing our hand in the air. The doctrine of the Trinity is explained quite rationally. The mystery is how God is three and God is one. We believe what God has revealed about Himself. God has revealed Himself as one. God has revealed Himself three distinct persons. We hold no idea that God can be comprehended, because we are not God, nor punky gods in the making. God is God, we are not.

This is not similar to a Mormon testimony, which is a replacement for providing a rational explanation for Mormon belief. If you can’t explain something rationally, then why believe it? Or, why not believe just any old thing?

Ok, you’re cracking me up. I think you need to provide some references.

This is just dishonest. There are many former LDS here who were taught and believed just this. Your church has not refuted it, just have decided to gloss that part over because they know Christians view it as non-Christian.

And we’re fine with that. It is the LDS critique of Christianity, and touting itself as better because you believe God is a man, therefore, not so mysterious, that puts the religion outside of Christianity.

Also, mystery is a theological term, and is not the same as Mormon testimony. A mormon testimony is a replacement for rational thought or explanation. When the word mystery is used, there is underlying rational thought. God has revealed Himself as one, God has revealed Himself as three persons. It is rational to accept what God has revealed about Himself. What is a mystery is how God is three and God is one. We cannot grasp God, which is rational. God is God, not a human, and is beyond the grasp of that which He has created, us. The theological term is always used in context of the supernatural. It is not a crutch for skirting around historical claims that don’t align to fact.

Mormon testimony bearing is the goto response when the rational wall has been hit.

Okay, I saw this, and to the person you are responding to. I have Middle Eastern (as well as European and Mongolian) DNA, and American Indian DNA. Do a DNA test on my mother, she has all of those too. (Dad was just European and Amerind). You’ll find that they are NOT the same DNA. American Indians came to the Americas from the East of Asia, and this is consistent with DNA findings.