For Mormons on here

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Whatever became of the ancient record that had been buried?
It was taken to heaven by Moroni.
Again, unsupported testimony, and two accomplices backing up each other’s story.

I would certainly not buy a used car on such evidence.
I would hardly call the Holy Spirit ‘unsupported’.
No, sorry this is not what JS said. This is what he said and it is nothing like you claim:
actually what I said is exactly what Joseph Smith’s words there mean. The quote from Isaiah indicates churches teaching some truth (having a form of Godliness), but missing important elements and authority (denying the power thereof).
As to “all wrong”, if I was to state that ‘Catholics practise cannibalism’ (mods keep reading as I am categorically not stating this) I would be wrong; but cast in a particular light it appears to be correct. Likewise attacks claiming that Catholics worship idols, Mary etc. All are wrong, but on the face have an apparent truth to those who have little other knowledge of the practises; because each is based on something which is correct. The statement “all wrong” is to be understood that all of the other churches have elements which are incorrect; not that each church was wrong in its entirety.
Consider a rubik’s cube where someone has managed to get all but two squares completely correct. While the solution is ‘wrong’, the majority is correct, viewed from certain angles it certainly appears to be completely right, and you still have to admire the person’s ability to get it that far.
 
Vast difference between fantasy, imagination, rantings by itself VERSUS historical documents that verify and discuss the fantasy and imagined things - historical documentation makes all the difference. Research it for yourself see post #27 for a reading list. Historical societies, universities, private sources in various states have on paper what you haven’t or refuse to read or what the brethren have squelched. There’s the rub.

40,000 to 50,000 denominations including Chick & his ilk with many ranting at Holy Mother Church tragically & continually since their inception. They need a justifiable reason for their existence as a denomination which is clearly against scripture:

1 Church, 1 flock, 1 Shepherd, 1 Bride (the Church), 1 Bridegroom (Christ Jesus)

Question here is ignorance on part of LDS posters: vincible or invincible. Do you have the ability to overcome the holes in your knowledge? see post #27 booklist if you are up to the challenge.
 
WARNING: All external links are either pro-Mormon, or anti-Mormon, but not necessarily pro-Catholic. Say a prayer to St. Michael the Archangel, put on a St. Benedict’s medal and cross yourself with Holy Water before dipping your feet in these filthy waters. Many have been led away with what started out as good intentions. Virgo potens, ora pro nobis.

I might get this wrong but…

Joseph Smith and Hyrum Smith were visited by Jesus Christ AND Heavenly Father who baptised them. This is called the First Vision

They were later visited by the 3 Apostles who gave them the Priesthood.
Not quite …

You can read the full account of the first vision in the Pearl of Great Price (LDS canon scripture), but basically the first vision happened because Joseph was being courted by multiple Protestant churches in 1820 and did not know which one to join. He read in James that “if any of ye lack wisdom, let him ask of God, who giveth to all men liberally”, so he went to the woods to pray.
15 After I had retired to the place where I had previously designed to go, having looked around me, and finding myself alone, I kneeled down and began to offer up the desires of my heart to God. I had scarcely done so, when immediately I was seized upon by some power which entirely overcame me, and had such an astonishing influence over me as to bind my tongue so that I could not speak. Thick darkness gathered around me, and it seemed to me for a time as if I were doomed to sudden destruction.
16 But, exerting all my powers to call upon God to deliver me out of the power of this enemy which had seized upon me, and at the very moment when I was ready to sink into despair and abandon myself to destruction—not to an imaginary ruin, but to the power of some actual being from the unseen world, who had such marvelous power as I had never before felt in any being—just at this moment of great alarm, I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me.
17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!
18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.
19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”
20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven.
***Parenthetical sidenote: *** The accounts of this vision have changed multiple times since they were finally canonized in the above version. Also, he said that he was motivated to pray due to the religious revivals happening in the area in 1820, but according to multiple historians, there were no religious revivals happening in the area at the time.

[To be continued …]
 
WARNING: All external links are either pro-Mormon, or anti-Mormon, but not necessarily pro-Catholic. Say a prayer to St. Michael the Archangel, put on a St. Benedict’s medal and cross yourself with Holy Water before dipping your feet in these filthy waters. Many have been led away with what started out as good intentions. Virgo potens, ora pro nobis.

Now back to the baptism issue. It was during the translation of the Book of Mormon (which, by they way, consisted of Joseph Smith putting a stone in a hat and dictating the “translation” of the text on the plates) in which the Aaronic priesthood was restored (again from the Pearl of Great Price )
We still continued the work of translation, when, in the ensuing month (May, 1829), we on a certain day went into the woods to pray and inquire of the Lord respecting baptism for the remission of sins, that we found mentioned in the translation of the plates. While we were thus employed, praying and calling upon the Lord, a messenger from heaven descended in a cloud of light, and having laid his dhands upon us, he ordained us, saying: Upon you my fellow servants, in the name of Messiah, I confer the Priesthood of Aaron, which holds the keys of the ministering of angels, and of the gospel of repentance, and of baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; and this shall never be taken again from the earth until the sons of Levi do offer again an offering unto the Lord in righteousness … Accordingly we went and were baptized. I baptized him first, and afterwards he baptized me—after which I laid my hands upon his head and ordained him to the Aaronic Priesthood, and afterwards he laid his hands on me and ordained me to the same Priesthood—for so we were commanded.
***Parenthetical sidenote: ***blacks were not allowed to hold the priesthood in any form until 1978. According to ‘Mormon Doctrine’, written by General Authority Bruce R. McConkie in the 1960’s, “The Blacks are denied the Priesthood; under no circumstances can they hold this delegation of authority from the Almighty. The Negroes are not equal with other races where the receipt of certain blessings are concerned, particularly the priesthood and the temple blessings that flow there from, but this inequality is not of man’s origin, it is the Lord’s doings.” My parents had this book in our home when I was growing up.

The Melchizedek Priesthood was restored later in 1829, when apostles Peter, James, and John conferred it upon Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery. "On the banks of the Susquehanna River, sometime shortly thereafter, Joseph and Oliver were visited by three more heavenly, resurrected beings: Peter, James, and John, who laid their hands upon them to ordain them to the higher, Melchizedek Priesthood and to call them as apostles and “especial witnesses”.



**Parenthetical side note: **Oliver Cowdery, who was also one of the Three Witnesses of the golden plates of the Book of Mormon, was excommunicated in 1838 (along with the other two witnesses) due to disagreements with Joseph Smith , but was rebaptized shortly before his death in 1845. Oliver Cowdery died not in Utah, but at the home of fellow witness David Whitmer, who had also left the Mormon church. Whitmer makes it clear that Cowdery “died believing as I do to-day,” which included a belief that Joseph was a fallen prophet, and that the Doctrine and Covenants contained false revelations.
 
Former Mormon here. Sort of former Catholic too. Not sure what I believe.

I believe some of the cartoon, the true part. The first response to the OP was true. It misrepresents the LDS faith. If you would like a detailed account of what is wrong with the doctrine presented in the clip, you can read more at the link below. The clip comes from the movie The God Makers, based on the book of the same title. It had been thoroughly critiqued by Gilbert Scharffs in his book, The Truth About The God Makers, available online. Here is the link.

fairlds.org/The_God_Makers/

Someone posted on this thread about the lack of zeal for LDS members to share their faith. That isn’t true. Members are quite willing to share their faith as long as it is with someone opening to discussing it. This thread does not come across as that type of situation. Instead, it seems more like you want to attack any response given. Any attempt to dialogue on one topic will be dealt with by questioning three more topics preventing any resolution to any individual topic. This is a very common response not just online here but also when dealing with people face to face who are not open to truly discussing and learning. All members are familiar with this and avoid it at all costs.
 
🤷 more like Mormons want everyone to agree with them, if not, the responses range from not discussing Mormonism at all while remaining friendly, or, accusations of being anti-Mormon or even a religious bigot.

As a Mormon, I asked questions of people I was very close to, and never could get an answer. The response was to ignore and act like I never asked. It took me quite a while, years, to finally get it…there is no answer, and a realization that Mormons don’t think on things for more than a moment that aren’t making sense. Keep the ark steady, ignore anything and everything that disturbs the waters.
 
Rebecca, do I have this right
You are saying all LDS are cowed or theological imbeciles
because your immediate contacts did not answer your questions, when you were LDS.
I find your generalizations insulting.

Instead of insulting the members, why don’t you repeat your questions?
🤷 more like Mormons want everyone to agree with them, if not, the responses range from not discussing Mormonism at all while remaining friendly, or, accusations of being anti-Mormon or even a religious bigot.

As a Mormon, I asked questions of people I was very close to, and never could get an answer. The response was to ignore and act like I never asked. It took me quite a while, years, to finally get it…there is no answer, and a realization that Mormons don’t think on things for more than a moment that aren’t making sense. Keep the ark steady, ignore anything and everything that disturbs the waters.
 
Exactly. Not to mention that answers from LDS posters vary widely from person to person on any questions about doctrine, or any other beliefs taught by the church. It only makes it even more obvious that there is no actual firm doctrine that is universally accepted by all LDS members on any of their beliefs, or there is a general policy to never give a straight answer to any question, even if they’re asked by their own members that are looking for honest answers. Either way, it just confirms the fact that it’s all just based on smoke and mirrors.
 
Rebecca, do I have this right
You are saying all LDS are cowed or theological imbeciles
because your immediate contacts did not answer your questions, when you were LDS.
I find your generalizations insulting.

Instead of insulting the members, why don’t you repeat your questions?
I ask questions all the time Tony, here, and they go unanswered. But why would I ask you anything? You know nothing of Mormonism. Sure have the persecution bit down though.
 
Jjarek, serious questions have always been answered on this forum with sincere replies from LDS. Parker’s posts are some of the best in this area…
.
I’d like to stand up for Parker, too. He seems very sincere, polite, knowledgeable about LDS, and willing to share.
 
2 Timothy 22-26

So turn from youthful desires and pursue righteousness, faith, love, and peace, along with those who call on the Lord with purity of heart. Avoid foolish and ignorant debates, for you know that they breed quarrels. ** A slave of the Lord should not quarrel, but should be gentle with everyone, able to teach, tolerant, correcting opponents with kindness.** It may be that God will grant them repentance that leads to knowledge of the truth, and that they may return to their senses out of the devil’s snare, where they are entrapped by him, for his will.🙂
 
People need to be on the posts and follow their history.

You will find that many questions or challenges go unanswered. Or very solid Scriptural or historical documentation is given vs none…and again, no answer, but deflection…or – the misrepresentation of Catholic teachings by Mormon sophists…that are then corrected…but then again ignored, and fed back to us…or the ongoing stand of Mormonism that all Christian doctrines are corrupt and an implied false Catholic priesthood…again refuted, but no recognition…or the targeting of our young and vulnerable, or our deceased, even popes, priests, and religious…challenged…but then the indifference to our sensitivities…
 
Isn’t one of the basic issues here that LDS doctrine simply changes over time? If you start from a supposition of continuing revelation, doesn’t it follow that doctrine can change over time?

My personal view is that this partly accounts for part of the feeling of “shifting sands” that arises in these conversations. Quoting Brigham Young, Smith, McKonkie, etc. won’t settle a point when the actual teaching has changed.

lds.org/ensign/1996/08/continuing-revelation?lang=eng
 
I ask questions all the time Tony, here, and they go unanswered. But why would I ask you anything? You know nothing of Mormonism. Sure have the persecution bit down though.
So Rebecca,
You stand behind your gross generalization as reflecting proper Christian charity, and reflecting all LDS. I’m glad other posters here can see through your motives.

I never said I would be the one to answer your questions, there are other LDS with more experience and theological knowledge than I.

Jharek,
post a single legitimate question that has not been answered.
Bear in mind that you not liking the answer doesn’t mean it hasn’t been answered
Also, some areas don’t have explicit doctrine on them, just like with Catholics. So there can be valid variation in responses
 
Jjarek,
Stop equivocating and ask your question that doesn’t get answered

If your real beef is that you get different responses to a question, then post such for discussion.

However, this tactic of broadly maligning the character of all LDS because you don’t like the answers is quite petty.
 
Jharek,
Why do you continue to equivocate?

What are these major doctrines that receive contradictory responses!
 
So Rebecca,
You stand behind your gross generalization as reflecting proper Christian charity, and reflecting all LDS. I’m glad other posters here can see through your motives.
Tony I stand by my assertstion that you are feeling persecuted for no other reason than you dont agree with what I say. I have said nothing broad or uncharitable, I have voiced my experience.

If you are going to choose to continue this badgering and misrepresentation of what I say, I will report you to the mods.
I never said I would be the one to answer your questions, there are other LDS with more experience and theological knowledge than I.
Who, ParkerD? I like him well enough, have nothing against him, but his endless circles and usual insults of my faith are not answers.
 
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