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mwok
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Don’t forget Abortion and Contraception, no clear answer there yet either.
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PeterL
Guest
Mormons do not talk much about or for that matter think much about the subject of exaltation and the nature of eternal life. Because there are many people who speak of these things in a mocking and somewhat twisted way, Mormons tend to back away from them rather than cast more perls before swine. It is like mocking people for believing that they sit around doing nothing accept playing harps for eternity.
Mormons believe in eternal progression which means that we continue to grow and learn and become more like God. If eternal progression exists, then what kind of people will we be in a thousand years? How about a trillion years? Mormons do not dwell on such subjects as becoming kings with others subject to them. Mormons are more interested in gaining the kind of life and joy that God has. When others strive to portray us as having prideful motives, it paints a rather bad picture of us.
Mormons believe that the cycle of calling prophets and then the people going into apostacy has happened many times. When Jesus appeared on the seen, Israel was apostate. The people believed in the words of the dead prophets (which they had corrupted) but rejected live ones. Christ condemned them for this and likened them to sephulcres full of dead mens bones.
The Mormon church believes that the ancient Christian church fell into apostacy after the apostles died. With no authorized servants of God who held the keys of the priesthood, the church was left to fend for itself. Becasue of wickedness, the heavens were closed to revelation and guidance from God. Over thousands of years, Christianity changed into what it is today, an empty shell with very little faith and associated miracles. The early Christian church whose members were expected to sacrifice all that they had to God, is nowhere found (see Acts 4:32 thru Acts 5:10).
The Mormon church does have a policy concerning abortion and contraception.
Mormons are against abortion accept for rare cases like rape, incest, the life of the mother is endangered or the fetus is not expected to survive. Husbands and wives must be prayerful about this. Those who practice abortion for selfish reasons are excommunicated from the church. The church considers abortion to be a serious sin accept in exceptional circumstances.
Mormons are ok with contraception. The church teaches that we should not curtail the birth of children when parents are in good health and can sustain their family. However, all things must be done with good judgement. It is not requisite that parents run faster than they have strength. The questions of when and how many children a couple should have is left between them and God.
Mormons believe in eternal progression which means that we continue to grow and learn and become more like God. If eternal progression exists, then what kind of people will we be in a thousand years? How about a trillion years? Mormons do not dwell on such subjects as becoming kings with others subject to them. Mormons are more interested in gaining the kind of life and joy that God has. When others strive to portray us as having prideful motives, it paints a rather bad picture of us.
Mormons believe that the cycle of calling prophets and then the people going into apostacy has happened many times. When Jesus appeared on the seen, Israel was apostate. The people believed in the words of the dead prophets (which they had corrupted) but rejected live ones. Christ condemned them for this and likened them to sephulcres full of dead mens bones.
The Mormon church believes that the ancient Christian church fell into apostacy after the apostles died. With no authorized servants of God who held the keys of the priesthood, the church was left to fend for itself. Becasue of wickedness, the heavens were closed to revelation and guidance from God. Over thousands of years, Christianity changed into what it is today, an empty shell with very little faith and associated miracles. The early Christian church whose members were expected to sacrifice all that they had to God, is nowhere found (see Acts 4:32 thru Acts 5:10).
The Mormon church does have a policy concerning abortion and contraception.
Mormons are against abortion accept for rare cases like rape, incest, the life of the mother is endangered or the fetus is not expected to survive. Husbands and wives must be prayerful about this. Those who practice abortion for selfish reasons are excommunicated from the church. The church considers abortion to be a serious sin accept in exceptional circumstances.
Mormons are ok with contraception. The church teaches that we should not curtail the birth of children when parents are in good health and can sustain their family. However, all things must be done with good judgement. It is not requisite that parents run faster than they have strength. The questions of when and how many children a couple should have is left between them and God.
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hosemonkey
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sallybutler
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So does this mean that any Mormon who says he/she is against abortion in selected situations is going against LDS teaching. And what do you do with people who go against LDS doctrine?
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hosemonkey
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Murder is defined as “The deliberate taking of innocent human life, with malice aforthought.”
So, elective abortion certainly meets those criteria, no? Rape and incest are cases so rare as to be nearly non-existent. Health of the mother? This is the 21st century, hello? “Husbands and wives must be prayerful about this?” Will your “god” tell a man and wife that it is OK to kill their child? You worship a different god.
Adolf Hitler certainly could have used the “exceptional circumstances” defense. After all, in his opinion Jews were loud and dirty and they were ruining the country. Sorry mormons, you either kill children or you regard them as a gift from God, regardless of the circumstances, you cannot play the “exceptional circumstances” card, therein lies destruction.
So, mormons, when does human life begin? Is it better to kill the children with chemicals or with a scalpel or suction device? Is it better to deny life with a pill or with a condom? When you start saying yes to any interference with God’s will for you, you are on dangerous ground.
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mwok
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Sorry PeterL,
Consider yourself Hosed:thumbsup:
Consider yourself Hosed:thumbsup:
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Telstar
Guest
Hmmm… I guess that’s your way of calling anyone that doesn’t buy it, or makes a legitimate argument against it, a swine. Alrighty then… Oink! Oink! (BTW, if we spent eternity just sitting around playing harps, we’d probably get bored pretty quickly. I prefer more of a nice mix of instruments. I plan on spending my time surrounded by all of my family and friends, doing whatever we’ve always enjoyed doing, together. I have no doubt that some of that time will be spent sitting around pickin’ ‘n’ singin’ like we always used to do, every Saturday night. I’m sure once we get going, we’ll probably have lots of other folks joining in. It should be a pretty awesome sound!
)(in bold: translation: ultimate power) I hate to break it to you, but you only get one shot in this life, so you have to get it right the first time. Once you’re over the veil, it’s Judgement time. (of course, there really isn’t any such thing as ‘time’ as we know it, in Heaven)
(in bold: translation: the Catholic Church) I agree with hosemonkey. This is pure blasphemy against the integrity of the Word of God, Jesus Christ, because it calls Jesus a liar and a fool, Who needed the likes of a man like Joseph Smith to fix things for Him, because He was incapable of doing it right on His own. My Jesus is not a fool! And, He certainly didn’t need any help from Joseph Smith, or his magic peepstone!
Yes, they’re AOK as long as you have a ‘burning in your bosom’ when you pray about utilizing either one.
So, as long as you justify it in your own mind, it’s OK. Besides, God can always assign that ‘spirit-child’ to some other couple if you decide to have an abortion. Right?
etc., etc., etc., etc…
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hosemonkey
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Sorry PeterL,
Thank you for your support. I have got hose that I have not used yet. I’ve got 100 feet on the ground and a thousand feet on the truck.
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Telstar
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Methinks you should fill up the pumper with Holy Water and have at it!Thank you for your support. I have got hose that I have not used yet. I’ve got 100 feet on the ground and a thousand feet on the truck.
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KathleenGee
Guest
This Mormon talk about the Apostasy…we all know it isn’t true…and Mormons who actually believe such talk are terribly ignorant about the history of Christianity…
Tonight I was watching the history of Christianity in Japan…when the missionaries first came to Japan, the baptisms, and how over 20 Japanese were martyred for their faith…and those who apostasize — turning their backs on Christ, were put on crosses, and had to use their feet to walk over back and forth the faces of Christ and Mary…but the many believers did not lose their faith facing martyrdom and apostasy…they went underground.
They built ‘cupboards’ to keep statues similiar to Buddha…but representing Mary with the Christ Child, and pray to her for protection…they lived underground in their faith for over 200 years. Japan closed itself off to the world.
But then foreign ships came in, and trade began with Japan. They allowed churches to be built for the foreigners. A priest was sent and he wanted to find out if any Catholic Japanese had survived in passing down their faith for 200 years. He had a church built and named it St. Mary’s.
One day, some Japanese entered the church. They asked the priest questions. It had been passed down for 200 years that they could come out into the open with their faith depending on 3 signs: The priest was sent from Rome. The priest was celibate. And the church built would be named after Mary, the Mother of Christ.
Recognizing all 3 signs were fulfilled, the Japanese Catholics came out, and began worshipping at the church. Again there was persecution. They ended up having to build a new church…this one in Nagasaki. The rocks facing the sea were used to build the church, taking 5 years. Their faith flourished there.
But the atomic bomb was dropped on August 15, their special feast day…landing exactly on the church. A devout Catholic woman died instantly, and all the remained of her was her rosary. Her husband wrote about her…and at the memorials following over the years, these Catholics have been recognized as the sacrificial offering to finally bring peace to Japan.
Also it must be noted that over 7 German Jesuit priests survived the blast living so near to the epi center. Over 200 scientific tests were done on them. They were finally asked why they survived…and not they came from Nazi Germany at that time…they said they were living the requests of Our Lady of Fatima…pray the rosary daily, make everything a sacrifice of love for Christ.
So we have a long history, over 2000 years, very rich for those lay down their lives for Christ, rather than renounce Him, many saintly people.
True virtue tends to hide itself.
Apostasy means turning your back on Christ. You once believed, but now you totally turn your back on Him, and renounce Him.
There is no history in the Catholic Church of ever turning its back on the Lord.
Tonight I was watching the history of Christianity in Japan…when the missionaries first came to Japan, the baptisms, and how over 20 Japanese were martyred for their faith…and those who apostasize — turning their backs on Christ, were put on crosses, and had to use their feet to walk over back and forth the faces of Christ and Mary…but the many believers did not lose their faith facing martyrdom and apostasy…they went underground.
They built ‘cupboards’ to keep statues similiar to Buddha…but representing Mary with the Christ Child, and pray to her for protection…they lived underground in their faith for over 200 years. Japan closed itself off to the world.
But then foreign ships came in, and trade began with Japan. They allowed churches to be built for the foreigners. A priest was sent and he wanted to find out if any Catholic Japanese had survived in passing down their faith for 200 years. He had a church built and named it St. Mary’s.
One day, some Japanese entered the church. They asked the priest questions. It had been passed down for 200 years that they could come out into the open with their faith depending on 3 signs: The priest was sent from Rome. The priest was celibate. And the church built would be named after Mary, the Mother of Christ.
Recognizing all 3 signs were fulfilled, the Japanese Catholics came out, and began worshipping at the church. Again there was persecution. They ended up having to build a new church…this one in Nagasaki. The rocks facing the sea were used to build the church, taking 5 years. Their faith flourished there.
But the atomic bomb was dropped on August 15, their special feast day…landing exactly on the church. A devout Catholic woman died instantly, and all the remained of her was her rosary. Her husband wrote about her…and at the memorials following over the years, these Catholics have been recognized as the sacrificial offering to finally bring peace to Japan.
Also it must be noted that over 7 German Jesuit priests survived the blast living so near to the epi center. Over 200 scientific tests were done on them. They were finally asked why they survived…and not they came from Nazi Germany at that time…they said they were living the requests of Our Lady of Fatima…pray the rosary daily, make everything a sacrifice of love for Christ.
So we have a long history, over 2000 years, very rich for those lay down their lives for Christ, rather than renounce Him, many saintly people.
True virtue tends to hide itself.
Apostasy means turning your back on Christ. You once believed, but now you totally turn your back on Him, and renounce Him.
There is no history in the Catholic Church of ever turning its back on the Lord.
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bz5
Guest
Eternal progression: If we are to continue growing and learning, what is Jesus doing? Why is he static - “the same yesterday, today, and forever”? Couldn’t we eventually grow to greater glory than He has? I know you’ll say no, that it’s more like climbing a ladder - as we go up, we push up those gods above us. But again, how is He the same always then? It seems more of a nice slogan if you believe in eternal progression.
Abortion: I’ve said it before, but if you believe the unborn baby is human, then nothing justifies the deliberate killing of it. To say you need to pray about it is really to say you may decide for yourself - God cannot hold both sides are okay, so He cannot be the one guiding any woman to abortion.
The apostasy - again, all things rise and fall on that. If the Mormon church did not exist in the first days of Christianity, then there was nothing to restore. Do you have one single name of someone who was a true Mormon? Any proof? Who started the apostasy? Name some names. How did they spread it so easily in a church Jesus himself started and promised to guide into all truth? We, on the other hand, can name leaders of heresies, their arguments, the church fathers who fought them, the arguments they used, the councils who settled the matter, using actual, written down, never forgotten history. The apostasy is one giant conspiracy theory. And if you do believe it, why in the world do you trust that you know what books the Bible consists of, since it was so clearly given by an apostate church?!
Continued revelation: The LDS arguments for this seem to be that God still speaks to us, so we need prophets. No, He gave us a church that He guides. What use do we have of prophets who contradict each other, cancel each other’s teachings? How can that be of God? And why speak of “the fullness of the everlasting Gospel”? How can it be full or everlasting when there are continual new and changing revelation?
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PeterL
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Wow, I have stirred allot of feelings. I should have toned my comments down. There is allot of comments concerning abortion. Mormons believe that abortion is a terrible thing but believe that it may be justified in rare circumstances. There is a spirit of the law that has to come into play. The same goes for killing. We are not to kill, but what about the need to protect your family?
The following is a selected quote form the church handbook of instructions. This is the policy of the church concerning abortion:
"Members must not submit to, perform, arrange for, pay for, consent to or encourage an abortion. The only possible exceptions are when:
As far as has been revealed, a person may repentent and be forgiven of the sin of abortion".
Earth life is not perfect. I realize that doctors are not perfect but we try to make the best decisions that we can with faith that God will accept our humble and prayerful strivings to do what is right.
The following is a selected quote form the church handbook of instructions. This is the policy of the church concerning abortion:
"Members must not submit to, perform, arrange for, pay for, consent to or encourage an abortion. The only possible exceptions are when:
- Pregnancy resulted from forcible rape or incest.
- A competant physician determines that the life or health of the mother is in serious jeapardy.
- A competent physician determines that the fetus has severe defects that will not allow the baby to survive beyond birth.
As far as has been revealed, a person may repentent and be forgiven of the sin of abortion".
Earth life is not perfect. I realize that doctors are not perfect but we try to make the best decisions that we can with faith that God will accept our humble and prayerful strivings to do what is right.
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Tony888
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Jharek, I’ll try comment on all parts of your shotgun attack. Below are my ‘off the cuff’ replies. If you disagree, with any effort, I’ll take the effort to do additional research to close the issue. You’ve raised too many points in such a weak way for me to address all with sincerity.
Exaltation - you were to vague to comment
Eternal marriage has been a consistent doctrine
Spirit children worshipping their parents as God the Father - new to me so please reference.
Apostasy - the LDS church clearly states it started after the deaths of Christ and his Apostles
Exaltation - you were to vague to comment
Eternal marriage has been a consistent doctrine
Spirit children worshipping their parents as God the Father - new to me so please reference.
Apostasy - the LDS church clearly states it started after the deaths of Christ and his Apostles
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Tony888
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I’m not concerned that you disagree with me but
I find the below generalization to be unchristian
I find the below generalization to be unchristian
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PeterL
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Concerning apostacy:
Many Mormons do believe that the only 2 churches that could possibly be true are the Catholic or the Mormon church. The Catholic church claims to have existed since Peter and the Mormon church claims to be restored from heaven. Both claim the authority of the priesthood. All other churches seem to be break off’s of these 2.
It is highly doubtful that either of us could persuade the other.
Many Mormons do believe that the only 2 churches that could possibly be true are the Catholic or the Mormon church. The Catholic church claims to have existed since Peter and the Mormon church claims to be restored from heaven. Both claim the authority of the priesthood. All other churches seem to be break off’s of these 2.
It is highly doubtful that either of us could persuade the other.
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bz5
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DOES the LDS church sate the apostasy started with any specificity? Names, dates, heresies? It seems obvious that it’s a vague conspiracy theory to justify a ‘restoration’ of something no one in the world had previously known of.
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RebeccaJ
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PeterL, as someone who came from a feminist, atheist perspective on abortion…I held the view that I could never choose abortion for myself, with others free to choose as I did.
It is a view that doesn’t take into account the worth of human life. It is one of the most beautiful teachings of the Catholic Church. All human lives are valued by God, from conception to death, each soul is loved no more or less than any other.
The problem I have with the LDS approach is that the life of the unborn is a second consideration, therefore, a denial of the value of that life as loved equally. You would not consider killing an infant under “special circumstances” yet you will consider taking the life of an unborn. I hope you can see there is something inherently wrong in this way of thinking. Especially coming from a group of people who claim to value family. There is a disconnect between the two Mormon teachings of family and abortion. I don’t know how you can reconcile it without reducing the life of the unborn to something that is not valued.
…and a fetus is not a hostile intruder. I’ve had one Mormon man try to convince me that there are circumstances where that is exactly what an unborn person is. I backed off that conversation, as it was very personal for him, where he obviously felt one of his own unborn children was a hostile threat to his wife and so that life was terminated.
These things are not easy, and there are times I think discussions on abortion that we forget we aren’t discussing theories, but real life situations, that are very difficult. I would have loved to tell this man that God saw their struggle, knew it, understood it, and loved equally his wife and his unborn child, and that God would be with all of his family, always, no matter the outcome. But he was hostile towards any view that didn’t put the desire for his wife’s safety above that of his unborn child. As I said, this view is only possible if the life of the unborn is viewed as something less…ie, if the child was born, I doubt he would consider taking his/her life in order to protect the life of his wife.
It is a view that doesn’t take into account the worth of human life. It is one of the most beautiful teachings of the Catholic Church. All human lives are valued by God, from conception to death, each soul is loved no more or less than any other.
The problem I have with the LDS approach is that the life of the unborn is a second consideration, therefore, a denial of the value of that life as loved equally. You would not consider killing an infant under “special circumstances” yet you will consider taking the life of an unborn. I hope you can see there is something inherently wrong in this way of thinking. Especially coming from a group of people who claim to value family. There is a disconnect between the two Mormon teachings of family and abortion. I don’t know how you can reconcile it without reducing the life of the unborn to something that is not valued.
…and a fetus is not a hostile intruder. I’ve had one Mormon man try to convince me that there are circumstances where that is exactly what an unborn person is. I backed off that conversation, as it was very personal for him, where he obviously felt one of his own unborn children was a hostile threat to his wife and so that life was terminated.
These things are not easy, and there are times I think discussions on abortion that we forget we aren’t discussing theories, but real life situations, that are very difficult. I would have loved to tell this man that God saw their struggle, knew it, understood it, and loved equally his wife and his unborn child, and that God would be with all of his family, always, no matter the outcome. But he was hostile towards any view that didn’t put the desire for his wife’s safety above that of his unborn child. As I said, this view is only possible if the life of the unborn is viewed as something less…ie, if the child was born, I doubt he would consider taking his/her life in order to protect the life of his wife.
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RebeccaJ
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Mormonism is not the only church that claims a restoration, it is one of several that emerged from American Protestantism in the 19th century…a man made religion, which relies on a belief in Joseph Smith.
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JHow
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Why not start with this one: apostasy?
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zaffiroborant
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