For Mormons on here

[mormoninterest]

Thanks for your insights here about parsing through core Mormon doctrines and extraneous ones meant to slander a church. I have also found a lot of answers with a similar short & brief response format at: themormonfactor.com/?p=75#more-75

 

[Pepband_Mom]

PeterL, my gentle reader:

You pronounce the Church of Christ (our official name) as an “empty shell with very little faith and associated miracles.” Breathtakingly blind and sweeping in scope that statement is. It would seem you might just benefit by shoring up the porous holes from what you parrot back as the party line.

#1 for the 1000 years since the Church went “apostate”, the Monks single handedly developed Europe. Towns were formed around their monasteries. They were THE ONLY doctors, hospitals, teachers; the ones to painstakingly write and preserve LEARNING. The UNIVERSITY system is from the MONKS. Toss in hospitals, schools, farming methods, irrigation techniques, water wheels, Markets, not to mention centers of WORSHIP - churches where the center of town etc.
Where were the LDS?

#2 The Church of Christ gave you Canon Law from which England’s legal system grew from and America adopted. Huge contributions in Natural Rights and Legal Rights - the Church was meticulous in pointing out the rights of all including non-Christians.
Where were the LDS?

#3 Science -Way too large to go through everything. Very briefly over 30 craters of the moon named after Jesuits mathematicians who also responsible for study of Seismology; huge in Physics, Medicine, Genetics, Astronomy; The father of the Big Bang Fr. Lamatre; JUST to name a couple.
Where were the LDS?

#4 Supreme accomplishments in the ARTS, 2nd to none; Music, Art, Construction techniques (ex. the flying buttresses @ Notre Dame in Paris for one).
Where were the LDS?

#5 Billions of people dedicated and SANCTIFIED by Christ Jesus.
Read the Early Church Fathers -look up one of the most PROLIFIC writers in the history of the world: St. Augustine (wrote over 5 million important words).
Where were the LDS?

You say it caved in early?

Try St. Fabiola (look her up in newadvent.org.) A very wealthy woman, built a hospital in Rome, one of the first ones. A “Mother Teresa” of Rome it would seem. She died about 399 or 400 AD. A GIANT in the history of Hospitals I daresay. In the USA, another example of pioneer: MOTHER JOSEPH. Her statue is in Statuary Hall in Wash. D.C. Taught carpentry by her dad in eastern Canada, came out West. Built THE FIRST schools, hospitals in Pac NW with her own hands. Church of Christ / Roman Catholic hospitals now serve 83,000,000 people in the US alone with over 260 hospitals. And YOU say FEW ASSOCIATED MIRACLES. Also, the California Mission System Fr. Junipera Serra, Fr. Pierre Desmet, A Jesuit “Black Robe” that mediated Native Americans warring parties; The List is endless
Where were the LDS?

You have a long way to go in publishing & media. The mormons I worked with remarked about how they loved Bishop Fulton Sheen’s TV show who someday will be canonized. Mother Angelica started her Eternal Word Television Network 30 years ago with nothing & reaches over 100 million + homes per week via TV ALONE; also Radio, Shortwave, Internet what PeterL, reaches 1/2 Billion people a week or more??? Read her Biography by Raymond Arroyo. Last year I believe the station went on air in Salt Lake City for our LDS Friends’ edification.

There is a show on EWTN “Saints in China” Talks about the brutal plight of missionaries, (I believe about the most hacked up and tortured for the faith of any martyrs in history) they endured centuries of it - Church of Christ has an endless list of martyrs in all countries & confessors (those who confessed the faith but were “merely” imprisoned for decades ex. communist China, Eastern Europe, & lived to tell about their torture.
Where were the LDS?

The Church of Christ CONSISTENTLY denounces ALL artificial birth control, abortion, euthanasia - See Humane Vitae - very outspoken about human rights, the SCOURGES of RELATIVISM, SECULARISM…

I CHALLENGE you to RESEARCH for YOURSELF; Then GET BACK TO US on this. Can order from Amazon: “The History of Christendom” by Dr. Warren Carroll. The first book in the 5 volume series is < $20. A mountainous work; also “How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization” by Prof. Thomas Woods, Jr. Google “Roman Catholic Miracles” & be prepared to read VOLUMES: especially St Bernadette of Lourdes pictures & Check out her beautiful, incorrupt body in Never, France - she died 3-4 years prior to my Grandfather’s 1882 birth, puts her timeframe in perspective for me. Also, check out Brother Andre in Montreal at the Oratory (my Mother actually saw him). Check out Joan Carroll Cruz’ book “The Incorruptibles”; an avalanche of info there to be had.

Few miracles, INDEED! LOL

Remember post #27

 

[PeterL]

Rebecca, the Mormon church takes a pragmatic view on many things. The life of an unborn child is precious to Mormons but sometimes we are in situations where we must make hard decisions. In the case of a mother verses the unborn childs lives, we have a couple of choices. We can do nothing (which is a choice) and the mother will die. Or we struggle in our decision making. In some cases, the choice to abort would be unthinkable but not saving a mothers life would also be unthinkable to the husband who is bound to protect both the baby and the mother. The mother is also a child of God.

Mormons believe a core reason that we are here on earth is to learn to make choices. Sometimes we have to struggle with 2 choices that appear equally good or equally bad. God allows us to make these choices knowing that it will cause growth. At any rate. in Mormon theology, a child who has not reached a level of understanding (and therefore accountablility) is automatically saved. So in the big picture, Gods children cannot be harmed by the choices of man.

 

[KathleenGee]

Pepband Mom,

Your reply is excellent and one should question, ‘who is slandering who?’

It was the Catholic Church who brought health care, education to the people. The modern framework of law that we work from comes from the Catholic Church. And in science, there is little knowledge or recognition of the founder of genetics, Friar Gregor Mendal whose teachings were more substantial than that of Darwin’s.

The trouble with Copernicus and Galileo is when they started to re-define some aspects of theology drawn from science. But the Church, going back to St. Athanasius, as scholar of his own right, greatly encouraged Christians to gain greater education.

There is a tremendous disconnect acknowledging the good of the Catholic Church, and slanderous indoctrination of defaming and invalidating our faith in the Mormon religion, to the point the Mormon power base appears as obsessive on the Catholic Church. It wants to learn all it can about our faith, so it can draw on it and then have a more standardize language and form to communicate to the world.

Mormonism wants to learn all our doctrines and teachings, so then they can take them, twist them, and make them Mormon. It is now misrepresenting our teachings in the Catholic Catechism of the Church and the Early Church Fathers, to make them out contrary to what they give us in the truth of Jesus Christ.

We want to go back and show our history, whereas these Mormon teachers want to hide their past teachings.

There is consistency of faith and witness…as I shared prior with you just of the recent addition to the Church, the Japanese Catholics whose behavior and compartment is something all Catholics should reflect on more.

Our faith calls us to bear witness to Christ, as we have done for 2,000 years. There are no martyrs within Mormonism because the point is the exaltation of self. Mormonism is based on falsehoods and pride. Being humble to exalt one’s self is a contradiction.

It is amazing that the Apostles, witnesses to Christ, 12 of them, would have no ability to pass on the faith or even have an inclination to chose successors is right there living proof this great apostasy – turning one’s back on Christ and denouncing Him…never happened. Yet the Mormon religion, with its American style folk lore claiming a history of some lost tribe of Israel is so incredulous, you never witness a Jew challenging them.

Jesus Christ came at the fulfillment of time. His arrival was the perfect time designated by God. To say He disconnected, didn’t set up His church right…also insinuates a different understanding of Christ, of God Himself.

The Holy Trinity is all about communion, God has the nature of communion, that He is calling us to enter through His Eternal Word and Eucharist…and to be servants to others in Christ’s love.

When you exalt yourself over Christianity, it is also implying not only pride but envy. So you can become a god some day....pride, power, greed...contradict the communion the Lord is calling us to.  These vices are contrary to the teachings of salvation history.

So then the niceness becomes really a tool…being nice to others to gain exaltation, vs being sincere in serving others for the love of Christ and His glory.

I do not see what teachings Mormonism provides in Christology but the exaltation of self, which believers in God have always warned us about.

Contrary to Mormon apostasy, the Church continued to flourish inspite of persecutions and martyrdom. It almost was annihilated…bishops and priests killed, churches destroyed, until Constantine the Great came to uphold the Church, while he himself not becoming a Christian until days before his death.

Mormons need to find out the truth from the Catholic Church, not from one that has claimed animosity and emnity from its inception…such construct one that goes back to carnal man, and not progressing to union with God through Christ.

 

[Jim_Dandy]

Ole Joe Smith had to invent the “apostasy” in order to sell his 19th century “restoration” invention. The entire Mormon religion is one invention after another.

Christ, who was God, promised to remain with His Church ALWAYS (Mt 28:20). He sent the Holy Spirit to remain with His Church and guide it to all truth ALWAYS (Jn 14:15-18, 14:26, 15:26, 16:7-15). Always means forever. He promised that His Church would never fail – that the “powers of death” (RSV) or “the gates of hell” (KJV) would never prevail against it (Mt 16:18-19). Never means forever. The God-made Church has now endured these 2,000 years.

Joe Smith has tried to prevail against it, but has not succeeded. A God-made Church cannot fail; man-made organizations will fail. Protestantism and Mormonism, which both claim that apostasy occurred in God’s Church, will go the way of all man-made heresies and the Church will still be standing “until the end of time” (Mt 28:20 KJV).

Jim Dandy

 

[Telstar]

PeterL, my gentle reader:

You pronounce the Church of Christ (our official name) as an “empty shell with very little faith and associated miracles.” Breathtakingly blind and sweeping in scope that statement is. It would seem you might just benefit by shoring up the porous holes from what you parrot back as the party line.

#1 for the 1000 years since the Church went “apostate”, the Monks single handedly developed Europe. Towns were formed around their monasteries. They were THE ONLY doctors, hospitals, teachers; the ones to painstakingly write and preserve LEARNING. The UNIVERSITY system is from the MONKS. Toss in hospitals, schools, farming methods, irrigation techniques, water wheels, Markets, not to mention centers of WORSHIP - churches where the center of town etc.
Where were the LDS?

#2 The Church of Christ gave you Canon Law from which England’s legal system grew from and America adopted. Huge contributions in Natural Rights and Legal Rights - the Church was meticulous in pointing out the rights of all including non-Christians.
Where were the LDS?

#3 Science -Way too large to go through everything. Very briefly over 30 craters of the moon named after Jesuits mathematicians who also responsible for study of Seismology; huge in Physics, Medicine, Genetics, Astronomy; The father of the Big Bang Fr. Lamatre; JUST to name a couple.
Where were the LDS?

#4 Supreme accomplishments in the ARTS, 2nd to none; Music, Art, Construction techniques (ex. the flying buttresses @ Notre Dame in Paris for one).
Where were the LDS?

#5 Billions of people dedicated and SANCTIFIED by Christ Jesus.
Read the Early Church Fathers -look up one of the most PROLIFIC writers in the history of the world: St. Augustine (wrote over 5 million important words).
Where were the LDS?

You say it caved in early?

Try St. Fabiola (look her up in newadvent.org.) A very wealthy woman, built a hospital in Rome, one of the first ones. A “Mother Teresa” of Rome it would seem. She died about 399 or 400 AD. A GIANT in the history of Hospitals I daresay. In the USA, another example of pioneer: MOTHER JOSEPH. Her statue is in Statuary Hall in Wash. D.C. Taught carpentry by her dad in eastern Canada, came out West. Built THE FIRST schools, hospitals in Pac NW with her own hands. Church of Christ / Roman Catholic hospitals now serve 83,000,000 people in the US alone with over 260 hospitals. And YOU say FEW ASSOCIATED MIRACLES. Also, the California Mission System Fr. Junipera Serra, Fr. Pierre Desmet, A Jesuit “Black Robe” that mediated Native Americans warring parties; The List is endless
Where were the LDS?

You have a long way to go in publishing & media. The mormons I worked with remarked about how they loved Bishop Fulton Sheen’s TV show who someday will be canonized. Mother Angelica started her Eternal Word Television Network 30 years ago with nothing & reaches over 100 million + homes per week via TV ALONE; also Radio, Shortwave, Internet what PeterL, reaches 1/2 Billion people a week or more??? Read her Biography by Raymond Arroyo. Last year I believe the station went on air in Salt Lake City for our LDS Friends’ edification.

There is a show on EWTN “Saints in China” Talks about the brutal plight of missionaries, (I believe about the most hacked up and tortured for the faith of any martyrs in history) they endured centuries of it - Church of Christ has an endless list of martyrs in all countries & confessors (those who confessed the faith but were “merely” imprisoned for decades ex. communist China, Eastern Europe, & lived to tell about their torture.
Where were the LDS?

The Church of Christ CONSISTENTLY denounces ALL artificial birth control, abortion, euthanasia - See Humane Vitae - very outspoken about human rights, the SCOURGES of RELATIVISM, SECULARISM…

I CHALLENGE you to RESEARCH for YOURSELF; Then GET BACK TO US on this. Can order from Amazon: “The History of Christendom” by Dr. Warren Carroll. The first book in the 5 volume series is < $20. A mountainous work; also “How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization” by Prof. Thomas Woods, Jr. Google “Roman Catholic Miracles” & be prepared to read VOLUMES: especially St Bernadette of Lourdes pictures & Check out her beautiful, incorrupt body in Never, France - she died 3-4 years prior to my Grandfather’s 1882 birth, puts her timeframe in perspective for me. Also, check out Brother Andre in Montreal at the Oratory (my Mother actually saw him). Check out Joan Carroll Cruz’ book “The Incorruptibles”; an avalanche of info there to be had.

Few miracles, INDEED! LOL

Remember post #27

Bravo!!

 

[KathleenGee]

Peter…

Your perception of the Catholic Church as an empty shell is incredulously blind. Where is the location of your stake…what kind of instructors have you had?

Mormonism has to invalidate Christianity to pump itself up. That is no religion but bigotry…

Shame on the Mormon men who have taught you as such. They need to put their spectacles on…as they do not see with the light of Christ.

False religion. Your base is knocking Christianity down; what kind of religion is that? Mormonism is not progressive but backward, falling back on falsehoods, pride, power, greed for its members…the mask of being nice…the return of the carnal man —who Christ died for.

Mormonism is the exaltation of carnal man and this is degression.

 

[bz5]

Excellent post, Pepband Mom. Peter, I’m surprised you would even bring up miracles. The apostles went forth on Pentecost to spread the true gospel, performing many miracles through God that day and in their subsequent ministry, as recorded in the Bible. As far as I know, there are not even claims of Joseph Smith healing the lame and blind, raising people from the dead, or any other miracle.

 

[Telstar]

Hey there, PeterL,

Pepband Mom brought up a great point. Where can I go to read about the thousands of actual, documented Mormon miracles that have been performed by Joseph Smith, and all the rest of your “apostles” and “prophets”? Has there ever been any blind man that was made to see, or a crippled child that got up and walked at the mere touch of their hand (without the help of any kind of medical surgeries, medicines or other scientific means, of course)? Did anyone in all of LDS history get cured of a longtime illness, by merely saying a prayer and touching a piece of your “prophet’s” clothing, or even just a scrap of cloth that was once a part of clothing that they wore? Any history of miraculous pictures that appeared on a poor man’s shawl, that was piled full of roses that bloomed in the desert in the middle of winter, by a beautiful woman that he saw in a vision? Did Joseph Smith receive any tangible proof from the visions he had, that we can still see on display, somewhere? I’d love to see a link where I can read about all of those kinds of things that are sure signs of a true ‘saint’ of God. I might have to think about converting if you had anything like that to prove that your church is true.

/sarcasm

 

[KathleenGee]

Mormonism is about men themselves becoming god.

Mormonism is the apostate church…because it has turned its back on Christ and His church for self exaltation.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Rebecca, the Mormon church takes a pragmatic view on many things. The life of an unborn child is precious to Mormons but sometimes we are in situations where we must make hard decisions. In the case of a mother verses the unborn childs lives, we have a couple of choices. We can do nothing (which is a choice) and the mother will die. Or we struggle in our decision making. In some cases, the choice to abort would be unthinkable but not saving a mothers life would also be unthinkable to the husband who is bound to protect both the baby and the mother. The mother is also a child of God.

Mormons believe a core reason that we are here on earth is to learn to make choices. Sometimes we have to struggle with 2 choices that appear equally good or equally bad. God allows us to make these choices knowing that it will cause growth. At any rate. in Mormon theology, a child who has not reached a level of understanding (and therefore accountablility) is automatically saved. So in the big picture, Gods children cannot be harmed by the choices of man.

How does circumstance change the morality of a choice? If a person has the intent to end an innocent life, how is this pragmatically moral?

Taking the life of an unborn most certainly is causing harm, and how would this action cause “growth”? If a child is saved until they become unsaved at age 8, why worry about the life of a young child at all? You see how what you are saying is neither logical or reasonable?

You are viewing the unborn as less valued. Why say, “do nothing”, when the obvious action would be to do whatever it takes to preserve the life of both the mother and the unborn? Neither intentionally harming the mother or the unborn child, right? How can you say, do not harm the mother, but do kill the unborn and call that taking of a life not harmful?

These are serious questions.

 

[KathleenGee]

To answer Pepband Mom’s rhetorical question, where was and is, LDS??

 

[RebeccaJ]

PeterL, every argument made in support of abortion can be made in support of infanticide. Think about it, pray about it, and truly discern what it is Mormonism has taught you about the value of human life. Does that value change depending on circumstance? What makes the unborn disposable to your religion?

 

[JHow]

…sometimes we are in situations where we must make hard decisions. In the case of a mother verses the unborn childs lives…

Aside from the moral issue, this “choice” almost never happens and is certainly not the case in the vast majority of abortions, which are done for convenience sake.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I’m not concerned that you disagree with me but
I find the below generalization to be unchristian

Tony I appreciate you sensibilities, but you do realize I am relating my experience, right? I have nearly fifty years of experience with Mormons. Raised as one, questions asked as one, leaving with questions unanswered, not asking those questions for a long time, asking them again, asking them here and other forums that are run by Mormons. There are questions that Mormons can’t answer, period. This is not a generalization, this is fact.

• how are lower degrees of the Mormon heaven, where God does not dwell, a form of heaven?
• why do you believe God is going to divide familes into these different levels? For example, look at yourself. Certainly as a Mormon you believe you can be with God in the mormon celestial kingdom, but God is going to slot your non Mormon family away from you unless they are Mormon like you.

I don’t believe this about my Mormon family. I believe my family will be judged according to how they have lived their life, treated others, and followed their understanding of God. I believe God has given us Mercy and Salvation in Jesus Christ, and so my Mormon family have the same gift as I and every persons has. Life, with God, in heaven, all of us together, is what I look forward to.

I find the Mormon belief to be very unChristian, because it denies Jesus Christ, who has restored us to the Father. We don’t need to be sealed to each other because Jesus has sealed us to Him! This is the Good News of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

So, you should think carefully about what you believe to be Christian and unChristian and not confuse it with being Mormon or unMormon.

At any rate, your response is typical, actually. Rather than addressing the topic, the questions, the discussions, to go off on a tangent of discussing me. You should also realize this response only solidifies my experience…you, a Mormon, can’t answer the questions and so change the subject. I am not the subject.

 

[TheExorcist]

• how are lower degrees of the Mormon heaven, where God does not dwell, a form of heaven?

And here is another thought about Mormon “heaven”: why does the BofM mention Hell when that clearly does not exist in modern Mormon teaching?

• why do you believe God is going to divide familes into these different levels? For example, look at yourself. Certainly as a Mormon you believe you can be with God in the mormon celestial kingdom, but God is going to slot your non Mormon family away from you unless they are Mormon like you.

And also what about the three different levels of the Celestial Kingdom? I didn’t even KNOW about this (supposed) division until a few years ago. So you’re good enough to get to the top level but not the tippy top? Sounds a little fishy to me. Too many inconsistencies to be true really.

 

[KathleenGee]

As Christ said, by their fruits you shall know them…be it Mormonism or the Catholic Church as Pepband Mom demonstrated.

 

[hosemonkey]

And here is another thought about Mormon “heaven”: why does the BofM mention Hell when that clearly does not exist in modern Mormon teaching?

And also what about the three different levels of the Celestial Kingdom? I didn’t even KNOW about this (supposed) division until a few years ago. So you’re good enough to get to the top level but not the tippy top? Sounds a little fishy to me. Too many inconsistencies to be true really.

Inconsistencies is not really the word for mormonism. The whole construct is made up of lies, fantasies, wishes, lousy theology, control mechanisms, masonic flapdoodle and obfuscation. Not mention outright thimblerigging. The three levels of mormon “heaven” is just one of the items of mormon belief that was not really well thought out by Joseph and his henchmen, or maybe one of their “prophets.”

I know about your particular dilema, Exorcist, but man, you need to get as far away from that folderol as you can. I feel your pain and I will continue to pray that you can come to the true Church without too much loss.

 

[hosemonkey]

Concerning apostacy:

Many Mormons do believe that the only 2 churches that could possibly be true are the Catholic or the Mormon church.

The Catholic church claims to have existed since Peter and the Mormon church claims to be restored from heaven. Both claim the authority of the priesthood. All other churches seem to be break off’s of these 2.

It is highly doubtful that either of us could persuade the other.

Absolutely true. But…If I took the evidence for the truth of mormonism into court, mormonism would lose and probably be held in contempt of court for frivolous filing. The evidence for mormonism is not there and the testimony shows strong indications of perjury.
Your founder was a megalomaniac who had doubtful credibility and his witnesses recanted their testimony and he died in the commission of a felonious assault. Had he survived, he would have been convicted of murder.
Our Founder was the Son of God and was unjustly executed after refusing to allow His followers to commit violence against His persecuters.
mormonism fails on all counts.
Christianity triumphs, in the person of the Catholic Church.

 

[Tony888]

Rebecca, the Mormon church takes a pragmatic view on many things. The life of an unborn child is precious to Mormons but sometimes we are in situations where we must make hard decisions. In the case of a mother verses the unborn childs lives, we have a couple of choices. We can do nothing (which is a choice) and the mother will die. Or we struggle in our decision making. In some cases, the choice to abort would be unthinkable but not saving a mothers life would also be unthinkable to the husband who is bound to protect both the baby and the mother. The mother is also a child of God.

Mormons believe a core reason that we are here on earth is to learn to make choices. Sometimes we have to struggle with 2 choices that appear equally good or equally bad. God allows us to make these choices knowing that it will cause growth. At any rate. in Mormon theology, a child who has not reached a level of understanding (and therefore accountablility) is automatically saved. So in the big picture, Gods children cannot be harmed by the choices of man.

Peter, Catholic doctrine actually does allow for an abortion to save the life of the mother.