For Mormons on here

[Prague]

For Kathllen Gee - Just read your information about Catolics in Japan. Thought you might be interested in this picture of the head of Mary that survived in the Catholic Church in Nagasaki.

 

[Telstar]

No Sally,
It’s not up to the couple and Down’s syndrome does not equal the below
**“The fetus has severe defects that will not allow the baby to survive beyond birth.” **

The Exorsist, the church guidance is explicit on this subject
newsroom.lds.org/official-statement/abortion
lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?locale=0&sourceId=63c139b439c98010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=bbd508f54922d010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD

So, you’re saying that LDS don’t have any hope that God could perform a miracle that would defy the probable odds that a baby really could survive, even with all those odds against it?

 

[PeterL]

I am a Mormon in a leadership position and have one of the 2 general handbook of instructions. I believe that this one is online but the other which is just for bishops is not. Here is the entire section on abortion. I am normally careful about providing this type of information because it is meant for mature members of the Mormon church. But I feel that it may clear up some confusion.

ABORTION:

The Lord commanded, “Thou shalt not…kill, nor do anything like unto it” (D&C59:6). The church apposes elective abortion for personal or social convenience. Members must not submit to, perform, arrange for, pay for, consent to, or encourage an abortion. The only possible exceptions are when:

1. Pregnancy resulted from forcible rape or incest.
2. A competent physician determines that the life or health of the mother is in serious jeopardy.
3. A competent physician determines that the fetus has severe defects that will not allow the baby to survive beyond birth.

Even these exceptions do not justify abortion automatically. Abortion is a most serious matter and should be considered only after the persons responsible have consulted with their bishops and received divine confirmation through prayer.

Church members who submit to, perform, arrange for, pay for, consent to, or encourage an abortion may be subject to church discipline.

As far as has been revealed, a person may repent and be forgiven for the sin of abortion.

 

[sallybutler]

I am a Mormon in a leadership position and have one of the 2 general handbook of instructions. I believe that this one is online but the other which is just for bishops is not. Here is the entire section on abortion:

ABORTION:

The Lord commanded, “Thou shalt not…kill, nor do anything like unto it” (D&C59:6). The church apposes elective abortion for personal or social convenience. Members must not submit to, perform, arrange for, pay for, consent to, or encourage an abortion. The only possible exceptions are when:

1. Pregnancy resulted from forcible rape or incest.
2. A competent physician determines that the life or health of the mother is in serious jeopardy.
3. A competent physician determines that the fetus has severe defects that will not allow the baby to survive beyond birth.

Even these exceptions do not justify abortion automatically. Abortion is a most serious matter and should be considered only after the persons responsible have consulted with their bishops and received divine confirmation through prayer.

Church members who submit to, perform, arrange for, pay for, consent to, or encourage an abortion may be subject to church discipline.

As far as has been revealed, a person may repent and be forgiven for the sin of abortion.

Of course a person may repent and be forgiven. However, it is much better that they repent before and not follow thru with the sin.

That being said, why is the child to be killed because of forcible rape or incest. I realize that it is a difficult act for the mother in such a situation to carry the pregnancy to term, but, why should the baby’s life be taken? Why should the child be punished for it’s biological father’s behavior? And, if the mother is underage, who is making that decision for her?

 

[PeterL]

Of course a person may repent and be forgiven. However, it is much better that they repent before and not follow thru with the sin.

That being said, why is the child to be killed because of forcible rape or incest. I realize that it is a difficult act for the mother in such a situation to carry the pregnancy to term, but, why should the baby’s life be taken? Why should the child be punished for it’s biological father’s behavior? And, if the mother is underage, who is making that decision for her?

I understand where you are coming from. The church is not completely black and white on this issue. As you can see from the handbook quote, abortion is an extremely serious sin in the church but judgement must be used when the physical and spiritual life of the mother is in the balance. Would you feel differently if your daughter was traumatized and conceived after being violently raped.

In Mormon doctrine, the child is not forgotten and is saved because he or she is not yet accountable for sin. Mormons do not believe in original sin in that we are not accountable for Adam’s transgression.

The church is very black and white on other issues such as any sexual activity outside of marriage. This will incur church discipline.

 

[RebeccaJ]

? Why the point of the child being saved? Does a child conceived by violence deserve a death sentence?

As I already said, the arguments you are making can be made for infanticide. What is it about the unborn that makes them disposable to your religion?

 

[sallybutler]

I understand where you are coming from. The church is not completely black and white on this issue. As you can see from the handbook quote, abortion is an extremely serious sin in the church but judgement must be used when the physical and spiritual life of the mother is in the balance. Would you feel differently if your daughter was traumatized and conceived after being violently raped.

In Mormon doctrine, the child is not forgotten and is saved because he or she is not yet accountable for sin. Mormons do not believe in original sin in that we are not accountable for Adam’s transgression.

The church is very black and white on other issues such as any sexual activity outside of marriage. This will incur church discipline.

If my daughter were raped I would want the rapist locked up without a key forever. I would also not want her to have the death of a baby on her conscience. Having had a miscarriage, I still wonder after 30 years if I did something that caused it. I can not imagine how I would deal with the guilt if I’d had an abortion.

Your statement about the child being saved if aborted is a very dangerous thought. A less balanced person than yourself could take that concept and think that aborting children is good because it means they are automatically saved.

Is this an LDS teaching?

 

[Stephen168]

Homicide is the killing of another human being. There are three sub categories of homicide: murder, self defense, and accident. Murder is the willful killing of an innocent human being. Self defense is the willful killing of a human being while in the act of defending ones own life or the life of another. Accident is the killing of a human being with no intent to kill them. The Catholic Church accepts self defense and accident; while the Mormon Church has no problem with murder.

 

[jlhargus]

Hello, JL. I hope you are well.

I can understand how, looking in from the outside, the existence of an orthodox Protestantism seems impossible. J. I. Packer and Thomas Oden conducted an analysis of this issue in their book, “One Faith.” The authors acknowledge the problems caused by multiple Protestant denominations, but their summary argues compellingly for evangelical consensus in the following areas:

• The Good News: the heart of the Gospel

JL: I agree the Good News is the heart of the Gospel. Also both as a Protestant and now Catholic I believed one could lose salvation and OSAS is a false Gospel. So is that ONE common orthodox FAITH?

• The Bible: the authority of Holy Scripture

JL: I agree Scripture is authoritative and as some Protestants I believe scripture ALONE is not the ONLY authority is that one common orthodox faith?

• The One True God: Father, Son and Holy Spirit

JL: I agree yet some Protestants believe the Trinity is a false Gospel.

• Human life under God: creation fallen into sin

JL:   I agree human life is under God and creation is fallen.

• Jesus Christ: his person and work

JL: I agree in the personhood of Jesus Christ and His work What does this really mean? Answer; whatever anyone wants it to mean.

• Christ’s reconciling work on the cross: his penal substitution for our sins

JL: I agree in Christ reconcling work on the cross suffering the cruse for our sins.

• The exalted Lord: his resurrection, ascension, and session

JL: So those who believe Christ resurrected, but NOT BODILY are just as othodox as those who believe in BODILY ressuection

• Justification by grace through faith: the acquittal

JL:  I agree justification by grace through faith when are sins are remitted at baptism.

• The meaning of salvation: God saves sinners

 JL:  I agree God saves sinners but along with the majority of Protestants I believe one can lose salvation.  So do those Protestants who believe in OSAS hold the same orthodox common faith as those who don't?

• The sending of the Holy Spirit: uniting the faithful to Christ

JL: I agree in ONE VISIBLE body of Christ.

• The holy life: sanctifying grace

JL: I agree.

• Unity and truth of the Gospel: the unity of all believers

JL: So the Gospel that one can lose salvation is in unity of the Gospel with the contradicting Gospel of OSAS?

• The church: the people of God

JL:  I agree and that Church subsists in the Catholic Church.   Which can be seen, heard, name leaders, and found in history.  As opposed to that elusive phantom that can’t be seen, heard, name leaders of or found in history.

[Mk 9:38 And JOHN answered him, SAYING, MASTER, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and HE FOLLOWETH NOT **US: and WE FORBAD HIM, because HE FOLLOWETH NOT US. 39 But JESUS SAID, FORBID HIM NOT: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. 40 For he that is not against US is on OUR PART.] Christ established, and SENT one fellowship to TEACH the whole world till the end, promising to be WITH THEM ALWAYS. The Holy Spirit works thru those separated denominations not in visible union with the Apostles Fellowship. Uniting them to the ONE fellowship in a spiritual way. All Christ’s children are spiritually, although not visibly nor holding the apostles doctrine fully, united to the Catholic Church or body of Christ. [1Tm3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself IN THE HOUSE OF GOD, which is THE CHURCH of the living God, THE PILLAR AND GROUND OF TRUTH.] There can’t be thousands of pillars and grounds of TRUTH. Teaching contradicting doctrine. There is only ONE HOUSEHOLD OF GOD, that is the pillar and ground of truth. The ONE SENT by Christ the APOSTOLIC FELLOWSHIP and their successors, in union with St Rock (Peter).

• Religious pluralism and the uniqueness of Christ: salvation in Christ alone

JL:  I doubt that even all Protestant would agree with disorgainized religion.  Many other groups will not accept they have a religion.

• Christian social responsibility: the integration of words and deeds

JL:  Again I doubt all Protestant groups would accept this statement.  My formeer non-denomination would not accept it as is for sure.

• The future: the last things

JL: Well most everone believes in a future and last things, but many Protestants would disagree on the last things.

 

[blueadept]

. Mormons do not believe in original sin in that we are not accountable for Adam’s transgression.
.

For clarification PeterL, in Catholic doctrine original sin does not equal actual sin. We are judged on actual sin only.

This is a misconception that I’ve seen most LDS have of the Catholic faith…

 

[blueadept]

I am a Mormon in a leadership position and have one of the 2 general handbook of instructions. I believe that this one is online but the other which is just for bishops is not. Here is the entire section on abortion. I am normally careful about providing this type of information because it is meant for mature members of the Mormon church. But I feel that it may clear up some confusion.

ABORTION:

The Lord commanded, “Thou shalt not…kill, nor do anything like unto it” (D&C59:6). The church apposes elective abortion for personal or social convenience. Members must not submit to, perform, arrange for, pay for, consent to, or encourage an abortion. The only possible exceptions are when:

1. Pregnancy resulted from forcible rape or incest.
2. A competent physician determines that the life or health of the mother is in serious jeopardy.
3. A competent physician determines that the fetus has severe defects that will not allow the baby to survive beyond birth.

Even these exceptions do not justify abortion automatically. Abortion is a most serious matter and should be considered only after the persons responsible have consulted with their bishops and received divine confirmation through prayer.

Church members who submit to, perform, arrange for, pay for, consent to, or encourage an abortion may be subject to church discipline.

As far as has been revealed, a person may repent and be forgiven for the sin of abortion.

Thank you for posting the official CHI guidance on this and it’s as I have referred to in another thread. Tony888 was referring to what was given on LDS.org and that was causing some unnecessary disagreements.

 

[blueadept]

What about in the case of Down’s syndrome or other such genetic issues? Is it ok with the LDS church to abort in these cases? Or if the couple just feel that this is not the right time for them to have a child? Does the LDS church have a definite position or is it up to the couple with the blessing of their bishop?

I’ve known a handfull of LDS couples who kept a down’s syndrome baby and provide for the baby, the best that they could. I’ve also known LDS couples that kept babies they knew would die shortly after their birth. While I personally do not care for the wording that;s in the CHI, I’ve witnessed actions of LDS couples that any Catholic should be proud of. I have a close LDS cousin who privately celebrates each year the birthday of her stillborn son. Very honorable IMHO.

 

[zaffiroborant]

For clarification PeterL, in Catholic doctrine original sin does not equal actual sin. We are judged on actual sin only.

This is a misconception that I’ve seen most LDS have of the Catholic faith…

This is because it is taught in the Articles of Faith, the LDS creed.

 

[blueadept]

This is because it is taught in the Articles of Faith, the LDS creed.

Agreed. The 2nd Article Faith states,

2 We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.

While the Article of Faith infers nothing about what Catholics believe, I know I’ve had to correct every LDS member and explain that Original Sin does not equal actual sin and that we are only judged on actual sin. We are actually in agreement but I’ve met few LDS who understand that.

 

[bz5]

Agreed. The 2nd Article Faith states,

While the Article of Faith infers nothing about what Catholics believe, I know I’ve had to correct every LDS member and explain that Original Sin does not equal actual sin and that we are only judged on actual sin. We are actually in agreement but I’ve met few LDS who understand that.

But we do baptize babies because of original sin. They don’t. If a Mormon child dies, do they then baptize him by proxy? If so, why do they not baptize babies?

 

[blueadept]

But we do baptize babies because of original sin. They don’t. If a Mormon child dies, do they then baptize him by proxy? If so, why do they not baptize babies?

As stated, they do not believe in Original Sin and see no reason to baptize. The do the believer’s baptism which is at the age of 8.

 

[bz5]

As stated, they do not believe in Original Sin and see no reason to baptize. The do the believer’s baptism which is at the age of 8.

As do many Protestants. But what do they think happens to an unbaptized six-year-old, for example, who dies? Would they think it necessary to baptize him by proxy? And this might be stretching in another direction, but I don’t understand eternal progression as it relates to those in the telestial and terrestrial levels. May they advance to the next levels if they accept the Mormon message after death?

 

[RebeccaJ]

But we do baptize babies because of original sin. They don’t. If a Mormon child dies, do they then baptize him by proxy? If so, why do they not baptize babies?

Mormons believe everyone has an immaculate conception. Then, at a person’s 9th birthday, something happens where that is lost. I’ve never been able to figure out what causes a child to lose their salvation at their 9th birthday.

 

[Tony888]

Mormons believe everyone has an immaculate conception. Then, at a person’s 9th birthday, something happens where that is lost. I’ve never been able to figure out what causes a child to lose their salvation at their 9th birthday.

Actually, I’m suprised you don’t get the parallels with the Catholic sacraments.

Don’t Catholics give the rite of Confession about the same age, thinking that the young person is now old enough to ‘know better’ and should be held accountable through confession and repentance?

Although baptized, wouldn’t a Catholic 9yr old who committed serious sin without confession lose their salvation?

It’s really about repentance, which follows baptism and receiving the holy ghost.

 

[Tony888]

Jharek, try commenting on topic
IT IS all about the sacrament of repentance.