For Mormons on here

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Jjarek, you have become quite entertaining with your divisive ways 🙂

You approach life here like one of the Sunday paper picture puzzles, where the game is to spot all the minute or gross differences between two images. I take the reverse and try to flag some of the similarities.
 
Tony888 said:
Actually, I’m suprised you don’t get the parallels with the Catholic sacraments.
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As usual, you are over simplifying. The only similarity is the age, but this is mainly a practice of the Latin rite.

Why do think many of the Eastern rites infants are baptized, confirmed and receive their first communion all together?
"Don’t Catholics give the rite of Confession about the same age, thinking that the young person is now old enough to ‘know better’ and should be held accountable through confession and repentance?
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Although baptized, wouldn’t a Catholic 9yr old who committed serious sin without confession lose their salvation?
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It’s really about repentance, which follows baptism and receiving the holy ghost.
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A child is baptized as an infant. There are many graces that come from baptism, one of which is, the stain of original sin is removed. This is permanent, cannot be undone, and so, never needs to be redone. This is what Salvation is: Jesus reconciling our fallen state with the Father. This isn’t lost, ever, at any age.

I don’t know of any parallel teaching in Mormonism, let alone sacrament. Mormons baptize for a different reason than Catholics.

All of the sacraments of the Catholic church infuse graces, which are gifts of the Holy Spirit. This includes baptism, and so, a child who has been baptized is growing in faith with the help of the Spirit. Confirmation completes the graces of baptism, it places the seal of the Spirit on the confirmed, the same seal that was placed on Jesus Christ, marking us as belonging to Him.

The sacraments of baptism, confirmation and eucharist are how a person is initiated as a Christian. Preparation for confirmation is done with the intent of uniting the person more closely with Christ, to awaken the person to a sense of belonging to the Church as a whole, and to a parish.

It is fitting then, that a person goes to their first confession at this point, as sin not only separates a person from God as an individual, it injures the Body of Christ: us, His Church and the Christian community.

The sacrament of reconciliation requires first of all an understanding of what sin is; an action must have an understanding of what is right and wrong, an intent to go against God, feelings of contrition and a desire to be reconciled. The particular age for this sacrament is recommended by the Bishop typically between the age of 7-14.

A child who is preparing for confirmation has not lost their salvation, they are completing their initiation into the Kingdom of God.

I don’t know of any parallel teaching in Mormonism.

Mormons don’t believe a child can be guided by the Holy Spirit until they are confirmed. Children are believed to be a part of the Kingdom of God at birth, but somehow, lose that status and need to be baptized in order to enter it again. This is what I mean by loss of Salvation. Salvation, meaning, Jesus Christ has reconciled us to the Father, and so we are joint heirs with Him.

Mormons believe young children are saved, but later require baptism in order to be saved again. There is no such teaching in Catholicism, east or west.
 
RebeccaJ said:
Mormons believe everyone has an immaculate conception. Then, at a person’s 9th birthday, something happens where that is lost. 🤷 I’ve never been able to figure out what causes a child to lose their salvation at their 9th birthday.
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I think it must spring from Joseph Smith’s Protestant background? Some of them also put a lot of focus on baptism, but they don’t baptize until a person is of the age of reason. It seems to me that LDS inhabits some shadowy ground between Catholicism - where baptism has an actual effect coming from the grace of God - and some Protestant sects, where one must come to the age of reason to be baptized because it’s a symbol of acceptance of Christ and of repentance but doesn’t really do anything. The weird middle ground is believing it’s absolutely necessary, but doesn’t do anything.
 
bz5 said:
I think it must spring from Joseph Smith’s Protestant background? Some of them also put a lot of focus on baptism, but they don’t baptize until a person is of the age of reason. It seems to me that LDS inhabits some shadowy ground between Catholicism - where baptism has an actual effect coming from the grace of God - and some Protestant sects, where one must come to the age of reason to be baptized because it’s a symbol of acceptance of Christ and of repentance but doesn’t really do anything. The weird middle ground is believing it’s absolutely necessary, but doesn’t do anything.
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I agree.
 
bz5 said:
I think it must spring from Joseph Smith’s Protestant background? Some of them also put a lot of focus on baptism, but they don’t baptize until a person is of the age of reason. It seems to me that LDS inhabits some shadowy ground between Catholicism - where baptism has an actual effect coming from the grace of God - and some Protestant sects, where one must come to the age of reason to be baptized because it’s a symbol of acceptance of Christ and of repentance but doesn’t really do anything. The weird middle ground is believing it’s absolutely necessary, but doesn’t do anything.
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I would hardly say it doesn’t do anything
LDS receive the Gift of the Holy Spirit through baptism, and that is both significant and powerful
 
Tony888 said:
I would hardly say it doesn’t do anything
LDS receive the Gift of the Holy Spirit through baptism, and that is both significant and powerful
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No you don’t.

The graces of baptism were given to you at your Catholic baptism, and they are still yours.
 
blueadept said:
Agreed. The 2nd Article Faith states,

While the Article of Faith infers nothing about what Catholics believe, I know I’ve had to correct every LDS member and explain that Original Sin does not equal actual sin and that we are only judged on actual sin. We are actually in agreement but I’ve met few LDS who understand that.
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It does infer that others (non-LDS) believe that we are punished for “Adam’s transgression”, which is why there are few LDS who understand that.
 
RebeccaJ said:
Mormons believe everyone has an immaculate conception. Then, at a person’s 9th birthday, something happens where that is lost. 🤷 I’ve never been able to figure out what causes a child to lose their salvation at their 9th birthday.
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:eek: :eek: :eek:
 
RebeccaJ said:
No you don’t.
The graces of baptism were given to you at your Catholic baptism, and they are still yours.
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Correct. Even though they have apostacised and are excommunicated for their denial of the True Faith, so-call “ex-Catholics” remain Catholic for life and after. Church teaching is unchanged on this matter. Those who have known the truths of Catholicism and have willfully rejected them are in danger of hellfire. And mormons, all you get from a second baptism, is wet.
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hosemonkey said:
Correct. Even though they have apostacised and are excommunicated for their denial of the True Faith, so-call “ex-Catholics” remain Catholic for life and after. Church teaching is unchanged on this matter. Those who have known the truths of Catholicism and have willfully rejected them are in danger of hellfire. And mormons, all you get from a second baptism, is wet.
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Many “ex-Catholics” have gotten annoyed with me when I’ve told them that once they are Baptized Catholic, they remain Catholic, forever. Which means that they will be held to a much higher standard than our Protestant brethren, in the final Judgement. Sad, but true.

Actually, all Mormons get from any of their baptisms, is wet. I would imagine that if they do a lot of proxy baptisms at one time, they probably get pruney fingers and toes, too.
 
Telstar said:
Many “ex-Catholics” have gotten annoyed with me when I’ve told them that once they are Baptized Catholic, they remain Catholic, forever. Which means that they will be held to a much higher standard than our Protestant brethren, in the final Judgement. Sad, but true.

Actually, all Mormons get from any of their baptisms, is wet. I would imagine that if they do a lot of proxy baptisms at one time, they probably get pruney fingers and toes, too.
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:aok:
 
Tony888 said:
I would hardly say it doesn’t do anything
LDS receive the Gift of the Holy Spirit through baptism, and that is both significant and powerful
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Wrong. The Gift of the Holy Ghost is conferred AFTER baptism by the laying on of hands.
 
bz5 said:
Ah, …Good points
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bz5,

To clarify:

Latter-day Saints believe that every baby born on this earth has an immediate condition of salvation through the atonement of Jesus Christ. It is not an “immaculate conception” if those words are what are used to describe Mary. It is the condition of having been saved through the atonement of Jesus Christ, because they otherwise were in the fallen condition of this mortality and still needed to be resurrected into immortality and eternal life, both of which (immortality and eternal life) come through the atonement and resurrection of the Lord, Jesus Christ.

It is an error to think that little Latter-day Saint children do not have the Holy Ghost to guide them before their baptism. There are examples from both the scriptures and from personal histories of children under age eight who had spiritual promptings from the Holy Ghost. The gift of the Holy Ghost is an added blessing for those over age eight, of being able to be more constantly guided and especially to be spiritually nourished after having made the covenant of baptism through their own personal choice for being baptized and taking upon themselves the covenants that baptism involves.

It is also an error to think that there is some immediate “at age nine you’re guilty if not baptized” situation. Children progress in their abilities to understand good and evil and to choose right from wrong. Of course the Lord is aware of that progress–to think otherwise is to think God is not omniscient. Science has gained awareness that there is a maturity level for young adults (for their full cognition) that isn’t reached until about age twenty-five on average. So with that same awareness which God fully knows of course, there will be mercy extended through the atonement of Jesus Christ in every situation involving youth who made whatever poor choices in their life during their developmental years into full adulthood.
 
ParkerD, I recall shortly after you started posting you said young children do not have spiritual experiences. I’m glad to see you have had a change of heart. 🙂

Immaculate conception is a description of Mary because she was given the gift of being born without original sin. Mormons believe everyone is born without original sin, thus, in Catholic terms, you believe everyone has an immaculate conception.
 
TheExorcist said:
Wrong. The Gift of the Holy Ghost is conferred AFTER baptism by the laying on of hands.
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That’s also the Catholic Sacrament of Confirmation. It’s when a Catholic is confirmed in the Faith and the Bishop confers the Gift of the Holy Ghost on them, with a firm slap on the cheek. At that point, the recipients declare their conviction to fully accept the Faith, and become soldiers of Christ. (It’s usually done around the age of 14 or 15 in our area.)
Confirmation

A sacrament in which the Holy Ghost is given to those already baptized in order to make them strong and perfect Christians and soldiers of Jesus Christ.

It has been variously designated: bebaiosis or confirmatio, a making fast or sure; teleiosis or consummatio, a perfecting or completing, as expressing its relation to baptism. With reference to its effect it is the “Sacrament of the Holy Ghost”, the “Sacrament of the Seal” (signaculum, sigillum, sphragis). From the external rite it is known as the “imposition of hands” (epithesis cheiron), or as “anointing with chrism” (unctio, chrismatio, chrisma, myron). The names at present in use are, for the Western Church, confirmatio, and for the Greek, to myron.
 
Telstar said:
That’s also the Catholic Sacrament of Confirmation. It’s when a Catholic is confirmed in the Faith and the Bishop confers the Gift of the Holy Ghost on them, with a firm slap on the cheek. At that point, the recipients declare their conviction to fully accept the Faith, and become soldiers of Christ. (It’s usually done around the age of 14 or 15 in our area.)
Confirmation

A sacrament in which the Holy Ghost is given to those already baptized in order to make them strong and perfect Christians and soldiers of Jesus Christ.

It has been variously designated: bebaiosis or confirmatio, a making fast or sure; teleiosis or consummatio, a perfecting or completing, as expressing its relation to baptism. With reference to its effect it is the “Sacrament of the Holy Ghost”, the “Sacrament of the Seal” (signaculum, sigillum, sphragis). From the external rite it is known as the “imposition of hands” (epithesis cheiron), or as “anointing with chrism” (unctio, chrismatio, chrisma, myron). The names at present in use are, for the Western Church, confirmatio, and for the Greek, to myron.
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Does this also happen with adult catechumens when they are confirmed?
 
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