For Mormons. Why prophesy is over in the Bible

[jas84173]

Okay, so if Joseph Smith was a prophet, you do realize this goes against the Bible itself? You do claim to hold the Bible at the same level as the BOM correct? Unless you are reading a seriously warped version of the Bible, you should check out the book of Zechariah…

10“Then I will pour out a spiritof grace and prayer on the family of David and on the people of Jerusalem. They will look on me whom they have pierced and mourn for him as for an only son. They will grieve bitterly for him as for a firstborn son who has died. 11The sorrow and mourning in Jerusalem on that day will be like the great mourning for Hadad-rimmon in the valley of Megiddo.12“All Israel will mourn, each clan by itself, and with the husbands separate from their wives. The clan of David will mourn alone, as will the clan of Nathan, 13the clan of Levi, and the clan of Shimei. 14Each of the surviving clans from Judah will mourn separately, and with the husbands separate from their wives.1 “On that day there shall be a fountain opened for the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, to cleanse them from sin and uncleanness.2“And on that day, declares the Lord of hosts, I will cut off the names of the idols from the land, so that they shall be remembered no more. And also I will remove from the land the prophets and the spirit of uncleanness. 3And if anyone again prophesies, his father and mother who bore him will say to him, ‘You shall not live, for you speak lies in the name of the Lord.’ And his father and mother who bore him shall pierce him through when he prophesies.4“On that day every prophet will be ashamed of his vision when he prophesies. He will not put on a hairy cloak in order to deceive, 5but he will say, ‘I am no prophet, I am a worker of the soil, for a man sold me in my youth.’ 6And if one asks him, ‘What are these wounds on your back?’ he will say, ‘The wounds I received in the house of my friends

Thus, prophesy ended when Christ came to earth and the Lord revealed his truth. Claiming that prophets live now is false prophets. Joseph Smith could not have been a prophet, especially if you claim to be Christian.

 

[Janderich]

At this point let me correct just one misunderstanding. Zechariah gives us a key phrase in chapter 12 and also in chapter 13. It is the term “in that day”. In what day? He says, “And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.” (Zech 12:3). This prophecy is about the day when Jerusalem will be a burden to all the nations that surround it, in so much that they will be cut in pieces those who seek to fight against her. We have seen this only in recent history and it continues to our day.

Therefore this is a modern day prophecy of Israel and not about Christ’s day. So without even reviewing the words of Zechariah about the prophets themselves we can see that your conclusion, “Thus, prophesy ended when Christ came to earth and the Lord revealed his truth. Claiming that prophets live now is false prophets.” is incorrect.

 

[Horton]

At this point let me correct just one misunderstanding. Zechariah gives us a key phrase in chapter 12 and also in chapter 13. It is the term “in that day”. In what day? He says, “And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.” (Zech 12:3). This prophecy is about the day when Jerusalem will be a burden to all the nations that surround it, in so much that they will be cut in pieces those who seek to fight against her. We have seen this only in recent history and it continues to our day.

Therefore this is a modern day prophecy of Israel and not about Christ’s day. So without even reviewing the words of Zechariah about the prophets themselves we can see that your conclusion, “Thus, prophesy ended when Christ came to earth and the Lord revealed his truth. Claiming that prophets live now is false prophets.” is incorrect.

Zechariah 12:1-10
Oracles Concerning the Nations and Judah.
1 An oracle: The word of the LORD concerning Israel—oracle of the LORD, who spreads out the heavens, lays the foundations of the earth, and fashions the human spirit within:
2 See, I will make Jerusalem a cup of reeling for all peoples round about. Judah will be besieged, even Jerusalem. 3 On that day I will make Jerusalem a heavy stone for all peoples. All who attempt to lift it will injure themselves badly, though all the nations of the earth will gather against it. 4 On that day—oracle of the LORD—I will strike every horse with fright, and its rider with madness. But over the house of Judah I will keep watch, while I strike blind all the horses of the peoples. 5 Then the clans of Judah will say to themselves, “The inhabitants of Jerusalem have their strength in the LORD of hosts, their God.” 6 On that day I will make the clans of Judah like a brazier of fire in the woodland and like a burning torch among sheaves, and they will devour right and left all the surrounding peoples; but Jerusalem will again inhabit its own place. 7 The LORD will save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem may not be exalted over Judah. 8 On that day the LORD will shield the inhabitants of Jerusalem, so that the weakest among them will be like David on that day; and the house of David will be like God, like the angel of the LORD before them. 9 On that day I will seek the destruction of all nations that come against Jerusalem. 10 I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of mercy and supplication, so that when they look on him whom they have thrust through, they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and they will grieve for him as one grieves over a firstborn.

It’s easy to find a key phrase in a single verse to think you can prove your point but it all falls apart when placed in the proper context.

 

[jane_doe]

At this point let me correct just one misunderstanding. Zechariah gives us a key phrase in chapter 12 and also in chapter 13. It is the term “in that day”. In what day? He says, “And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.” (Zech 12:3). This prophecy is about the day when Jerusalem will be a burden to all the nations that surround it, in so much that they will be cut in pieces those who seek to fight against her. We have seen this only in recent history and it continues to our day.

Therefore this is a modern day prophecy of Israel and not about Christ’s day. So without even reviewing the words of Zechariah about the prophets themselves we can see that your conclusion, “Thus, prophesy ended when Christ came to earth and the Lord revealed his truth. Claiming that prophets live now is false prophets.” is incorrect.

I’d also point out that there were many prophets after Christ documented in the NT itself (Peter, Jonah, John, etc), so prophecy obviously continues after Christ.

 

[Horton]

I’d also point out that there were many prophets after Christ documented in the NT itself (Peter, Jonah, John, etc), so prophecy obviously continues after Christ.

Jonah was from the OT so he was before Christ. There were no prophets after Jesus Christ. He was the fulfillment of the OT prophecy.

 

[jane_doe]

Jonah was from the OT so he was before Christ. There were no prophets after Jesus Christ. He was the fulfillment of the OT prophecy.

And John, the author of the Book of Revelation, was… not a prophet?

 

[Horton]

And John, the author of the Book of Revelation, was… not a prophet?

Nope

 

[jane_doe]

Nope

So John didn’t prophesy?

 

[Horton]

So John didn’t prophesy?

If you want to know what the author of the book of Revelation was writing about read the book The Lamb’s Supper by Dr. Scott Hahn. If you truly are interested in Catholicism read Dr Hahn’s book Home Sweet Rome

 

[gazelam]

I’d also point out that there were many prophets after Christ documented in the NT itself (Peter, Jonah, John, etc), so prophecy obviously continues after Christ.

Don’t forget Agabus and the two latter-day prophets in Jerusalem mentioned in the book of Revelation!

 

[kimg901]

While I will never defend Mormonism I will say its not fair to pick on smith. There have been others that claim a prophet status also. These people and their followers will have to answer to the True God.

 

[Horton]

So John didn’t prophesy?

• From the USCCB - Introduction to the Book of Revelation
  "THE BOOK OF REVELATION
  The Apocalypse, or Revelation to John, the last book of the Bible, is one of the most difficult to understand because it abounds in unfamiliar and extravagant symbolism, which at best appears unusual to the modern reader. Symbolic language, however, is one of the chief characteristics of apocalyptic literature, of which this book is an outstanding example. Such literature enjoyed wide popularity in both Jewish and Christian circles from ca. 200 B.C. to A.D. 200.

This book contains an account of visions in symbolic and allegorical language borrowed extensively from the Old Testament, especially Ezekiel, Zechariah, and Daniel. Whether or not these visions were real experiences of the author or simply literary conventions employed by him is an open question.

This much, however, is certain: symbolic descriptions are not to be taken as literal descriptions, nor is the symbolism meant to be pictured realistically. One would find it difficult and repulsive to visualize a lamb with seven horns and seven eyes; yet Jesus Christ is described in precisely such words (Rev 5:6). The author used these images to suggest Christ’s universal (seven) power (horns) and knowledge (eyes). A significant feature of apocalyptic writing is the use of symbolic colors, metals, garments (Rev 1:13–16; 3:18; 4:4; 6:1–8; 17:4; 19:8), and numbers (four signifies the world, six imperfection, seven totality or perfection, twelve Israel’s tribes or the apostles, one thousand immensity). Finally the vindictive language in the book (Rev 6:9–10; 18:1–19:4) is also to be understood symbolically and not literally. The cries for vengeance on the lips of Christian martyrs that sound so harsh are in fact literary devices the author employed to evoke in the reader and hearer a feeling of horror for apostasy and rebellion that will be severely punished by God.

The lurid descriptions of the punishment of Jezebel (Rev 2:22) and of the destruction of the great harlot, Babylon (Rev 16:9–19:2), are likewise literary devices. The metaphor of Babylon as harlot would be wrongly construed if interpreted literally. On the other hand, the stylized figure of the woman clothed with the sun (Rev 12:1–6), depicting the New Israel, may seem to be a negative stereotype. It is necessary to look beyond the literal meaning to see that these images mean to convey a sense of God’s wrath at sin in the former case and trust in God’s providential care over the church in the latter.

The Book of Revelation cannot be adequately understood except against the historical background that occasioned its writing. Like Daniel and other apocalypses, it was composed as resistance literature to meet a crisis. The book itself suggests that the crisis was ruthless persecution of the early church by the Roman authorities; the harlot Babylon symbolizes pagan Rome, the city on seven hills (17:9). The book is, then, an exhortation and admonition to Christians of the first century to stand firm in the faith and to avoid compromise with paganism, despite the threat of adversity and martyrdom; they are to await patiently the fulfillment of God’s mighty promises. The triumph of God in the world of men and women remains a mystery, to be accepted in faith and longed for in hope. It is a triumph that unfolded in the history of Jesus of Nazareth and continues to unfold in the history of the individual Christian who follows the way of the cross, even, if necessary, to a martyr’s death.

Though the perspective is eschatological—ultimate salvation and victory are said to take place at the end of the present age when Christ will come in glory at the parousia—the book presents the decisive struggle of Christ and his followers against Satan and his cohorts as already over. Christ’s overwhelming defeat of the kingdom of Satan ushered in the everlasting reign of God (Rev 11:15; 12:10). Even the forces of evil unwittingly carry out the divine plan (Rev 17:17), for God is the sovereign Lord of history.

The Book of Revelation had its origin in a time of crisis, but it remains valid and meaningful for Christians of all time. In the face of apparently insuperable evil, either from within or from without, all Christians are called to trust in Jesus’ promise, “Behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age” (Mt 28:20). Those who remain steadfast in their faith and confidence in the risen Lord need have no fear. Suffering, persecution, even death by martyrdom, though remaining impenetrable mysteries of evil, do not comprise an absurd dead end. No matter what adversity or sacrifice Christians may endure, they will in the end triumph over Satan and his forces because of their fidelity to Christ the victor. This is the enduring message of the book; it is a message of hope and consolation and challenge for all who dare to believe.

Cont…

 

[Horton]

cont…

The author of the book calls himself John (Rev 1:1, 4, 9; 22:8), who because of his Christian faith has been exiled to the rocky island of Patmos, a Roman penal colony. Although he never claims to be John the apostle, whose name is attached to the fourth gospel, he was so identified by several of the early church Fathers, including Justin, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, Cyprian, and Hippolytus. This identification, however, was denied by other Fathers, including Denis of Alexandria, Eusebius of Caesarea, Cyril of Jerusalem, Gregory Nazianzen, and John Chrysostom. Indeed, vocabulary, grammar, and style make it doubtful that the book could have been put into its present form by the same person(s) responsible for the fourth gospel. Nevertheless, there are definite linguistic and theological affinities between the two books. The tone of the letters to the seven churches (Rev 1:4–3:22) is indicative of the great authority the author enjoyed over the Christian communities in Asia. It is possible, therefore, that he was a disciple of John the apostle, who is traditionally associated with that part of the world. The date of the book in its present form is probably near the end of the reign of Domitian (A.D. 81–96), a fierce persecutor of the Christians."

As noted there is some doubt the author of Revelation is John the Apostle. As for myself, I just don’t know. I’m not a biblical scholar so I can’t say for sure.

 

[RebeccaJ]

So John didn’t prophesy?

Rev. 1:1

The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to him, to show his servants what must happen soon. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John.

For Christians, Jesus Christ is God’s perfect and final public Revelation. The Book of Revelations, in its first sentence, declares it to be a revelation of Jesus Christ.

So, St. John the Evangelist, is a prophet in the Christian sense of prophecy, that is, Jesus Christ is the Christian Revelation. Any revelation that follows is for the purpose of coming to an understanding of what God has already revealed, in His Son, Jesus Christ. But Jesus Christ is not revealed again, as in, revealing something new that was hidden by Jesus and now must be given to St. John. Jesus gave all, everything, directly from Himself to all of mankind.

Christian discipleship means seeking to follow Jesus Christ. The Book of Revelations is a guide to discipleship, and includes what discipleship means in the context of the Church, Sacraments, persecution, martyrdom, and in how the Church and the Sacraments prefigure Heaven (the Kingdom of God).

Without understanding the Sacraments, their effect, and meaning, Revelations seems to be describing something that will happen. Catholics understand, that we live in the already here, where the Kingdom of God is established, and so we live the Book of Revelations in the now. We await the fulfillment at the return of the Church’s Groom, Jesus Christ, which has not yet occurred.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Don’t forget Agabus and the two latter-day prophets in Jerusalem mentioned in the book of Revelation!

As has already been pointed out numerous times to LDS in this forum, Catholics do not believe that the gift of prophecy, as given by the Holy Spirit, is dead.

The difference between LDS and Catholics, is that LDS don’t accept Jesus Christ as God’s Perfect Word, and seek after doctrinal novelties. LDS are always all the lookout for the esoteric.

Catholics don’t look for doctrinal novelties, don’t believe in esoteric Sacraments or rites. We understand that there is no other Word to be given to humankind, as a whole. Agabus gave to St. Paul, a prophecy that was specific to St. Paul, but not to the Church, ie NOT public revelation. Agabus gave a prophetic warning about a famine, which is not a doctrine, ie, the prophecy was not binding on all believers as a doctrine to be believed by all Christians. ie, NOT a public revelation.

Jesus is the final and perfect public Revelation. Honestly, He didn’t leave out or hide doctrines from humankind. He gave us all, and all is in Him.

The Book of Revelations provides explantation of applied doctrinal principles. Doctrines that already existed, as revealed, in Jesus Christ. St. John does not create new doctrines in the Apocalypse. He teaches how to be a disciple of Jesus Christ, in circumstances of the time in which it was written, which can be applied to any circumstance, in any age.

 

[Horton]

Don’t forget Agabus and the two latter-day prophets in Jerusalem mentioned in the book of Revelation!

Agabus wasn’t mentioned in Revelation.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_witnesses In reading through the wikipedia section the is a brief, one sentence in relation to the LDS: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches that the two witnesses would be two prophets on a mission to the Jews in the modern nation of Israel,[22][23] possibly two members of their Quorum of the Twelve or their First Presidency,[24] who are considered to be prophets by the church.

The sources noted are exclusively LDS and therefore lack credibility among Christians.

22. lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/77.15#14
23. Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses 16:329
24. lds.org/manual/doctrine-and-covenants-student-manual/section-69-80/section-77-questions-and-answers-on-the-book-of-revelation?lang=eng: “No doubt they will be members of the Council of the Twelve or of the First Presidency of the Church,” Bruce R. McConkie

 

[Janderich]

Zechariah 12:1-10
Oracles Concerning the Nations and Judah.
1 An oracle: The word of the LORD concerning Israel—oracle of the LORD, who spreads out the heavens, lays the foundations of the earth, and fashions the human spirit within:
2 See, I will make Jerusalem a cup of reeling for all peoples round about. Judah will be besieged, even Jerusalem. 3 On that day I will make Jerusalem a heavy stone for all peoples. All who attempt to lift it will injure themselves badly, though all the nations of the earth will gather against it. 4 On that day—oracle of the LORD—I will strike every horse with fright, and its rider with madness. But over the house of Judah I will keep watch, while I strike blind all the horses of the peoples. 5 Then the clans of Judah will say to themselves, “The inhabitants of Jerusalem have their strength in the LORD of hosts, their God.” 6 On that day I will make the clans of Judah like a brazier of fire in the woodland and like a burning torch among sheaves, and they will devour right and left all the surrounding peoples; but Jerusalem will again inhabit its own place. 7 The LORD will save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem may not be exalted over Judah. 8 On that day the LORD will shield the inhabitants of Jerusalem, so that the weakest among them will be like David on that day; and the house of David will be like God, like the angel of the LORD before them. 9 On that day I will seek the destruction of all nations that come against Jerusalem. 10 I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of mercy and supplication, so that when they look on him whom they have thrust through, they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and they will grieve for him as one grieves over a firstborn.

It’s easy to find a key phrase in a single verse to think you can prove your point but it all falls apart when placed in the proper context.

I’m not sure what your point is here at all.

 

[Horton]

I’m not sure what your point is here at all.

It’s easy to find a key phrase in a single verse to think you can prove your point but it all falls apart when placed in the proper context.

 

[jas84173]

Jesus was the fulfillment of the OT prophesies. Jewish scholars claim prophesy is only possible at a national level, thus following the deaths of Haggai , Zechariah, and Malachi this ended, because many Jews remained in Babylon.
Jesus came as the son of God, God incarnate. John the Baptist is viewed as a prophet and forebearer because he was prophesized in Malachi as Elijah making the way for the Lord. None of the disciples of Jesus were prophets, they were humans whom Jesus as God interacted with and spread his message too. That is different than a prophet.
As for prophets after Christ, there’s been many claimnants, most notably Muhammad in the 7th century. However even though Islam is an Abrahamic religion and many of the same stories and prophets, including Jesus and Moses are extremely important, Islam does not claim to be Christian, just as Judaism does not.
Mormonism claims to be Christian, by saying some apostasy occurred, which makes absolutely no sense seeing as you use a Bible that was chosen as scripture as the NT about 250 years following the death of the apostles. You claim the church throughout all that time just ceased to exist when many of the traditions you yourselves cherish came from the Catholic church. There is absolutely no purpose for the BOM. It is truly nothing more than bible stories and strangely bible names just with different names that are so similar. (Nephi, Levi). Please do yourselves a favor and wake up. Mormonism was created by a fraud who always was looking to be famous. The guy died by a jailhouse mob by his own followers after they found out he was sleeping with their wives. Some prophet.