For Muslims: Ezra...the Son of God?

[Byzantine_Wolf]

BW , where in the quran it mentions the names of sects or the name of tribs with regards to jews or christians . the massage of islam not come to condemn specific tribs or sects rather it comes to condemn the acts itself , wherever you can find such acts even if within muslims ( as for some sects of muslims worships scholars as shi3ah sect , and worship dosn’t neccessery mean divine ), so it’s wrong
in verse 9:30

Your first sentence brings up my point: in very few places (including commentary and hadith), when the Quran accuses Jews of worshiping Ezra as the Son of God, does Islamic literature distinguish between a sect of Jews and all Jews. Yet many modern Muslim apologists (as shown in the link Lion kindly gave earlier) argue that it only refers to a certain sect, and therefore the practices of a certain sect. If the Quran is not doing distinguishing between the two, then it is presenting a broad opinion of a trivial matter.

In regards to “the acts,” if the Quran is discussing veneration rather than worship (such as the veneration of the imams among the Shi’a Muslims, whom you mention) then Allah is incapable of differentiating between the two. They are wildly different - I can venerate a saint out of respect in the same manner I would venerate the dead of WWII, yet I do not worship them. Worship is for God alone.

As I said earlier, if S. 9:30 is accusing the Jews of veneration and the Christians of worship, then it is comparing apples and oranges. It also shows that Allah has no concept of what those two words mean and how they are applied.

exactly in our verse , when God mentions the jews and christians aside in 9:30 actually it refere to the act and the deeds not refering to the entire community of jews or christians
and it dosn’t say that all jews saying that uzair is the son of God

It says the Jews worship, not the Jews of Medina, just as it says the Christians worship, not a sect of Christians. There is no further clarification among extra-Quranic sources, but I will get to that in a moment.

You mention that the Quran sometimes mentions Jews and Christians entirely but doesn’t differentiate between them - however, you don’t full quote the passage. Right after S. 5:82, the Quran says:

And when they listen to the revelation received by the Messenger, thou wilt see their eyes overflowing with tears, for they recognise the truth: they pray: “Our Lord! we believe; write us down among the witnesses.” [S. 5:83; Yusuf Ali]

So yes, the verse you cite does clarify only a select group of Christians and Jews, because it only refers to those who choose to follow Mohammad and become Muslim. Why, then, is this never done for S. 9:30 if it only refers to a small group of Jews?

critera of attaking not based on beliefs or sects…

I’m afraid I don’t quite follow what this has to do with my question. I asked, if the Quran is only referring to a sect of Jews, why doesn’t it attack specific beliefs among Christian heresies as well? You go on about the policy of war and fighting. I think there’s a misunderstanding.

clarification isn’t important as for as a mattar of fact it wasn’t ever disputed issue between muslims nor arabs , any sane person will realize that the verse is talking about the jews who says the Uzair the son of God and the christians who says that jesus the son of God

That is my point: there is no clarification. In the majority of valid translations of the Quran, even those respected by Muslims themselves, it says the Jews and the Christians. When Mohammad, in the sahih hadith sources I cited earlier, is talking about the Final Judgment, he says the Jews will be condemned for their worship of Ezra, not a select group of Jews. When classical Muslim commentators are speaking on the verse, they speak of the Jews entirely. They don’t clarify and they don’t make any distinction.

The only time I have ever seen clarification is when someone reads into the passage, or eisegesis, rather than allowing the text and contemporary sources to speak for themselves, or exegesis.

because God is just when he send a universal massage .

My question was, “If it was a small sect of Jews who believed this, why did Allah waste His time responding to it?” Your response is somewhat like saying, “God can do what He wants.” I’m afraid that’s a bit of circular reasoning.

When God condemned Israel in the Old Testament, He didn’t do so because only a handful of people were doing bad things - He did so because the nation entire had fallen away from the Law, and the righteous were a minority. Why then, when we have a case where heresy is a minority among Judaism, is God making a statement about it? And why does it only come up when Mohammad is made aware of it and it comes in as an attack against Mohammad?

That was my point in bringing up the Christian heresies - if God wishes to condemn individual heresies, why not attack the much larger groups at that time? Why not attack the Arians, who believed Jesus was a divine being separate from God (which in fact, is closer to the Quranic interpretation of the Trinity than it is to Orthodox Christianity). Why not attack the Gnostics, many of whom believed Jesus to be a divine being at war with the God of the Old Testament? These groups were all much larger and their beliefs much more prevalent than a single tribe in Medina. Why does Allah only choose to condemn a small sect of Jews who are only known because one day they argued with Mohammad?

 

[aspirant]

I would very much like to see evidence for this from non-Muslim sources, e.g. Jewish artifacts, etc. Where can I find this?

I’m still hoping for this.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Oh, and just so A_Lion_Of_Islam doesn’t think I’m ignoring him.

apologies for the delay in responding to you… as for your question, I am no master of Arabic literature… therefore, I am unable to comment on the further on the actual verse from the Holy Qur’an. However, I welcome you to ask my brothers/ sisters in Islam who are much more enlightened in regards to answering your question.

please go to www.ummah.com/forum and post your question in the comparative religion section and I am sure that someone will provide you what you are looking for.

Peace

I just might, though it depends on my own time. Not that I’m not sincerely interested, but I only have so much spare time for internet forum discussion and debate. I’ve had friends try to get me to go to other forums, but CAF combined with my blog and more serious online stuff eats up most of my computer time. I’ll keep the link handy though, I appreciate it.

 

[elwill]

Your first sentence brings up my point: in very few places (including commentary and hadith), when the Quran accuses Jews of worshiping Ezra as the Son of God, does Islamic literature distinguish between a sect of Jews and all Jews. Yet many modern Muslim apologists (as shown in the link Lion kindly gave earlier) argue that it only refers to a certain sect, and therefore the practices of a certain sect. If the Quran is not doing distinguishing between the two, then it is presenting a broad opinion of a trivial matter.

In regards to “the acts,” if the Quran is discussing veneration rather than worship (such as the veneration of the imams among the Shi’a Muslims, whom you mention) then Allah is incapable of differentiating between the two. They are wildly different - I can venerate a saint out of respect in the same manner I would venerate the dead of WWII, yet I do not worship them. Worship is for God alone.

so , our argument now not about if this information about some jews correct or wrong , rather it’s about if arabic context means the entire communty of jews or just some of them ?

when i imagine the situation as it is , i will recognize that quran revealed to mohammed (pbuh) , and mohammed lives with christians and jews communities
then God wanna to teach muslims and mohammed something about islam , so he said that christians and jews said that such and such are sons of God while in the fact it’s their own words not the words of revelation he sent with jesus or moses (pbut) , this is lies inserted to thier beliefs after those prophets

from my personal view , the situation is very clear and dosn’t need someone intellegent or even aware of arabic language , to understand the purpose of the verse , and dosn’t need for God to specify the history of jews or christians by saying that i’m talking about catholic christians not the arthosox or that i’m talking about jews who believ that ezra is the son of God not the jews whom dosn’t

in the entire quran , and within all verses talking about jews or christians , it never specified the sects , it always say for example “the christians” then comment on specific acts , and muslims and arabs always understand that quran speaking about the groups of christians whom do this acts , not ever understood as all christians do this acts

 

[dzheremi]

from my personal view , the situation is very clear and dosn’t need someone intellegent or even aware of arabic language , to understand the purpose of the verse , and dosn’t need for God to specify the history of jews or christians by saying that i’m talking about catholic christians not the arthosox or that i’m talking about jews who believ that ezra is the son of God not the jews whom dosn’t

If this is true, then why do the Islamic apologetics on this verse all make such distinctions? Saying it is only a small group of Jews, if that is not in fact the point?

In fact, if that is not the point even after Muslims say it is, then why is this in the Qur’an at all? What IS the point? I’m really not understanding it.

in the entire quran , and within all verses talking about jews or christians , it never specified the sects

Because Muhammad did not understand them himself, he likely would not have recognized them anyway. If the only Christians you come into contact with are Ebionites, for instance, then you’re going to think that all Christians are Ebionites, even though at Muhammad’s time there were many others espousing far more orthodox views, as Christianity had already resolved many of the Christological controversies that had plagued it during its earlier times by the time of Muhammad. It is just Muhammad’s (and the world’s) that Gnostic heresies were prevalent in Arabia, while orthodox Christianity was not.

 

[elwill]

If this is true, then why do the Islamic apologetics on this verse all make such distinctions? Saying it is only a small group of Jews, if that is not in fact the point?

it wasn’t ever point of dispute untill anti_islamics from nonarabs raised it
Islamic apologetics just correct thier misunderstanding

In fact, if that is not the point even after Muslims say it is, then why is this in the Qur’an at all? What IS the point? I’m really not understanding it.

i really don’t understand your question but the point of mention those who hold this belief was to deny these beliefs

Because Muhammad did not understand them himself, he likely would not have recognized them anyway. If the only Christians you come into contact with are Ebionites, for instance, then you’re going to think that all Christians are Ebionites, even though at Muhammad’s time there were many others espousing far more orthodox views, as Christianity had already resolved many of the Christological controversies that had plagued it during its earlier times by the time of Muhammad. It is just Muhammad’s (and the world’s) that Gnostic heresies were prevalent in Arabia, while orthodox Christianity was not.

are you wanna to say for example that if gnostic were in arabia , then mohammed (pbuh) will think that all christians are gnostic?
actually if that’s true then when quran mention some beliefs wasn’t exist in Gnostic christians will refute this assumption

 

[NoWings]

please go to www.ummah.com/forum and post your question in the comparative religion section and I am sure that someone will provide you what you are looking for.

Peace

I’m not seeing a ‘comparative religion’ section on that forum.

 

[dzheremi]

it wasn’t ever point of dispute untill anti_islamics from nonarabs raised it
Islamic apologetics just correct thier misunderstanding

So they correct our misunderstanding by presenting a different misunderstanding of the verse?

i really don’t understand your question but the point of mention those who hold this belief was to deny these beliefs

I don’t understand the point having this verse in the Qur’an.

are you wanna to say for example that if gnostic were in arabia , then mohammed (pbuh) will think that all christians are gnostic?
actually if that’s true then when quran mention some beliefs wasn’t exist in Gnostic christians will refute this assumption

No it won’t, because my point is that Muhammad could not distinguish between Gnostic Christianity and orthodox Christianity if his life depended on it, and the Qur’an more than confirms this. It’s not as though if Muhammad mentions some beliefs that are not Gnostic (such as the belief in the divinity of Christ, which is certainly central to orthodox Christianity), it excuses him from all the stuff he got wrong! (e.g., the Trinity is three Gods? It is The Father, The Son, and Mary? All of this is ridiculousness and a misunderstanding of the very basics of Christianity. It is inexcusable in a book that claims to be from God.)

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

so , our argument now not about if this information about some jews correct or wrong , rather it’s about if arabic context means the entire communty of jews or just some of them ?

The issue is not a simple matter of grammar. The issue really is why does the Quran, hadith sources, and classical Muslim commentators all agree that Allah is cursing the Jews for their worship of Ezra and giving long-lasting commands to Muslims regarding them, when no Jew worships Ezra as the Son of God and even Muslim apologists today admit that only a small sect within Medina held such a belief. When we allow the text to simply speak for itself, it does not seem to support the idea that Islam believes only a small sect of Jews upheld that Ezra was the Son of God.

when i imagine the situation as it is , i will recognize that quran revealed to mohammed (pbuh) , and mohammed lives with christians and jews communities
then God wanna to teach muslims and mohammed something about islam , so he said that christians and jews said that such and such are sons of God while in the fact it’s their own words not the words of revelation he sent with jesus or moses (pbut) , this is lies inserted to thier beliefs after those prophets

I don’t know if you fully understand my question: why is God responding to a small sect that obviously did not hold an eternal belief as no Jews today worship Ezra as the Son of God - just as the vast majority of Jews even back then did not. God has never worked in this manner, as I discussed in my previous post.

If a revelation was given today that talked about Muslims, and it accused them of beliefs that were specific only to Ahmadis, but continually said “the Muslims,” then Muslims would have every right to question it. Therefore, why is the Quran treating the Jews in a similar fashion?

from my personal view , the situation is very clear and dosn’t need someone intellegent or even aware of arabic language , to understand the purpose of the verse , and dosn’t need for God to specify the history of jews or christians by saying that i’m talking about catholic christians not the arthosox or that i’m talking about jews who believ that ezra is the son of God not the jews whom dosn’t

Again, I don’t know if you’re fully grasping what we’re discussing here. Also, to argue something from your “personal view” is all well and good, but what does Islamic tradition say? I’ve quoted sources not from anti-Islamic sources (which you claim in another post this argument is coming from) but from sahih hadith and respected Muslim commentators. They all speak of Jews and Christians entirely, not specific sects. It seems that, from their view, the Jews did worship Ezra as the Son of God, and hence Allah is justified in his condemnation of them.

in the entire quran , and within all verses talking about jews or christians , it never specified the sects , it always say for example “the christians” then comment on specific acts , and muslims and arabs always understand that quran speaking about the groups of christians whom do this acts , not ever understood as all christians do this acts

The thing is, as I showed in my last post, the Quran does often distinguish between what Jews and Christians it is talking about. To ignore an argumentation and simply repeat what you said before is not addressing another person’s argumentation nor is it demonstrating yours.

Furthermore, as I showed before, nowhere is it distinguished that these are separate Jews - Mohammad, when talking about the final judgment, speaks of the Jews being punished for their worship of Ezra as the Son of God (refer back to my two-part OP). He doesn’t go into detail about other sects, just as he doesn’t with the Christians and pagans in the same hadith source. Obviously Islam believes more Jews than the ones who worship Ezra as the Son of God will be sent to hell, so why is this being applied across the board?

 

[jakasaki]

Lack of a qualifier doesn’t mean ‘all’. This need to heavily qualify any negative statement is a quite modern phenomenon which arose out of Western political correctness, which to this day has not touched the Arab world; you’ll constantly hear Arabs talking about how the Turks are doing this and the Jews are doing that when it’s understood that they’re talking about government policy and not peoples in general. You could also take Saint Paul up to task when he said that “Cretans are always liars, evil brutes, lazy gluttons.” (Titus 1:12)

However there is a qualifier in the Qur’anic statement, as 9:31 ends with “subhanahu `amma yushrikoon”. *Yushrikoon *is a present participle and means an action that is being done now, and its use implies the action being temporal,

**and it has been established that the Jews in Medina did believe that Ezra was some kind of incarnation of God. **

This usage is very different to how in other places the Qur’an addresses Christians beliefs about Jesus, which are countered many times in ways which express the fundamental and permanent nature of the Christians’ blasphemy (4:171, 5:17, 5:72-73 to give examples), yet there are no similar verses directed at Jews.

9:29 does not say Muslims should wage war against the Jews because of 9:30, the two are separate statements. You’re just putting your own spin on it when such a connection is not made in the text itself.

Please note above in bold where **you **state that it “has been established that the Jews in Medina did believe that Ezra was some kind of incarnation of God”

Please cite historical records and internet sites **which are of Jewish origin **and that they are NOT islamic sites where the Medina Jews believed in this Ezra deal.

Edit to add:

For Elwill - please do the same.

Post NON-islamic sites and records which points to a “sect” of Jews believing this sort of thing.

 

[aspirant]

it has been established that the Jews in Medina did believe that Ezra was some kind of incarnation of God.

BUMP.

 

[jakasaki]

BUMP.

I didn’t look back, but I think it’s the second time you bumped this and also the reason why I ask for proof from NON-islamic sites about this Ezra passage in the koran.

 

[aspirant]

I didn’t look back, but I think it’s the second time you bumped this and also the reason why I ask for proof from NON-islamic sites about this Ezra passage in the koran.

I think someone else bumped it the first time, but yeah.

 

[Nine_Two]

Funny how we know about relatively minor Jewish sects like the Essenes and yet have no information outside of the Koran about this heresy. You’d think the other Jews would make note of such blasphemy.

 

[hamba2han]

For those who wish to see evidence from non-Muslim sources, I wish to submit as evidence the “testimony” of the Jews of Medina themselves at the time of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

You see, it is really not difficult at all to destroy Islam for all that the enemies of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) had to do was to prove that the Qur’an is wrong since Muslims do indeed claim that it is the verbatim Speech of God and therefore it truly has to be 100% error-free.

Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) did indeed have very many enemies back then who were Hell-bent on destroying the new faith that he has brought which was threatening their very beliefs.

And since the Qur’an is stating that the Jews were worshiping Ezra, then all that the Jews of Medina at the time had to do was to point this out to all of the other literally thousands of enemies of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) that these verses of the Qur’an were simply false and Islam would have been destroyed there and then.

However, the simple FACT of the matter is that NONE of the enemies of Islam (Jews and non-Jews alike) at the time of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) ever pointed this out and so their total silence on the matter is really clear proof & confirmation that what the Qur’an has stated is indeed the truth that they themselves not only could not but were just not willing to dispute.

 

[Jay53]

For those who wish to see evidence from non-Muslim sources, I wish to submit as evidence the “testimony” of the Jews of Medina themselves at the time of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

You see, it is really not difficult at all to destroy Islam for all that the enemies of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) had to do was to prove that the Qur’an is wrong since Muslims do indeed claim that it is the verbatim Speech of God and therefore it truly has to be 100% error-free.

Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) did indeed have very many enemies back then who were Hell-bent on destroying the new faith that he has brought which was threatening their very beliefs.

And since the Qur’an is stating that the Jews were worshiping Ezra, then all that the Jews of Medina at the time had to do was to point this out to all of the other literally thousands of enemies of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) that these verses of the Qur’an were simply false and Islam would have been destroyed there and then.

However, the simple FACT of the matter is that NONE of the enemies of Islam (Jews and non-Jews alike) at the time of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) ever pointed this out and so their total silence on the matter is really clear proof & confirmation that what the Qur’an has stated is indeed the truth that they themselves not only could not but were just not willing to dispute.

Where is the evidence that they DIDN’T point it out to everyone. They very well could have pointed it out and could have been slaughtered for their efforts. Similar to how Abu Afak and Asma bin Marwan were murdered. And I’m sure it would have been justified under the “making mischief in the land” verse of the Quran (5:32)

In “23 Years; A Study of the Prophetic Career of Mohammad”, by Ali Dashti, (Mazda Press, 1994), Dashti also references the murders of Abu Afak and Asma’ b. Marwan. He wrote (page 100):

Abu Afak, a man of great age (reputedly 120 years) was killed because he lampooned Mohammad. The deed was done by Salem b. 'Omayr at the behest of the Prophet, who had asked, “Who will deal with this rascal for me?” The killing of such an old man moved a poetess, Asma b. Marwan, to compose disrespectful verses about the Prophet, and she too was assassinated.

 

[hamba2han]

Where is the evidence that they DIDN’T point it out to everyone. They very well could have pointed it out and could have been slaughtered for their efforts. Similar to how Abu Afak and Asma bin Marwan were murdered. And I’m sure it would have been justified under the “making mischief in the land” verse of the Quran (5:32)

You wish to see evidence that the Jews were not slaughtered if they had indeed pointed out this “error” in the Qur’an??

People who are disparaging against Islam are fond of pointing to the fact that Jews were expelled from Medina.

Well, they cannot have it both ways here since if there were Jews who were expelled from Medina, then how could all of them have been slaughtered?

And why didn’t these survivor Jews from Medina inform the many powerful enemies of Islam living outside Muslim lands the “real” reason for their expulsion i.e. that they had the audacity to point out the “error” in the Qur’an stating their belief that Ezra is the Son of God?

 

[aspirant]

For those who wish to see evidence from non-Muslim sources, I wish to submit as evidence the “testimony” of the Jews of Medina themselves at the time of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

Excellent. Please submit evidence for this doctrine from non-Muslim sources. Show us the testimony of the Medina Jews in the form of their own writings, artifacts, etc. Or show us other contemporary, non-Muslim writings, artifacts, etc. documenting this belief among Medina Jews.

 

[Jay53]

You wish to see evidence that the Jews were not slaughtered if they had indeed pointed out this “error” in the Qur’an??

People who are disparaging against Islam are fond of pointing to the fact that Jews were expelled from Medina.

Well, they cannot have it both ways here since if there were Jews who were expelled from Medina, then how could all of them have been slaughtered?

And why didn’t these survivor Jews from Medina inform the many powerful enemies of Islam living outside Muslim lands the “real” reason for their expulsion i.e. that they had the audacity to point out the “error” in the Qur’an stating their belief that Ezra is the Son of God?

First, I didn’t say that “all” Jews were slaughtered. Simply that if there was, in fact, any Jews who actually knew that Muhammad was saying this about them that their objections could easily have been silenced.

I’m just waiting to see evidence that there were in fact some small sect of Jews who worshipped Ezra as the Son of God in the same way that Christians worship Jesus as God. That’s what the Quran says - that’s what I’m waiting to see evidence of.

You are claiming that no one testified against this point in the Quran back then so that is the evidence. How do we know that? How do we know that the Jews there even knew that Muhammad was saying this about them?

What evidence you need to bring is from Jewish scripture and/or texts that prove that they worshipped Ezra as the Son of God or that there was such a heresy that the main group of Jewish people condemned. (For example there are all kinds of Christian heresies that are noted in Christian documentation that have been condemned and refuted by Early Church Fathers.) Surely, if there was such a heresy of Jewish practice there would be some evidence of it.

Unless the group that “may” have done this is so small that they weren’t worth writing about, in which case that leads us back to why is Allah even worrying about them and making blanket statements about Jews, but specifically referring to only them?

 

[Nine_Two]

For those who wish to see evidence from non-Muslim sources, I wish to submit as evidence the “testimony” of the Jews of Medina themselves at the time of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

You see, it is really not difficult at all to destroy Islam for all that the enemies of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) had to do was to prove that the Qur’an is wrong since Muslims do indeed claim that it is the verbatim Speech of God and therefore it truly has to be 100% error-free.

Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) did indeed have very many enemies back then who were Hell-bent on destroying the new faith that he has brought which was threatening their very beliefs.

And since the Qur’an is stating that the Jews were worshiping Ezra, then all that the Jews of Medina at the time had to do was to point this out to all of the other literally thousands of enemies of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) that these verses of the Qur’an were simply false and Islam would have been destroyed there and then.

However, the simple FACT of the matter is that NONE of the enemies of Islam (Jews and non-Jews alike) at the time of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) ever pointed this out and so their total silence on the matter is really clear proof & confirmation that what the Qur’an has stated is indeed the truth that they themselves not only could not but were just not willing to dispute.

You mean like how Christians constantly have to tell Muslims the Koran is incorrect on its description of the Trinity? I have no doubt Muslims 1400 years ago were just as good at putting their fingers in their ears as Muslims now.