For Muslims: Ezra...the Son of God?

[Nine_Two]

You wish to see evidence that the Jews were not slaughtered if they had indeed pointed out this “error” in the Qur’an??

People who are disparaging against Islam are fond of pointing to the fact that Jews were expelled from Medina.

Well, they cannot have it both ways here since if there were Jews who were expelled from Medina, then how could all of them have been slaughtered?

And why didn’t these survivor Jews from Medina inform the many powerful enemies of Islam living outside Muslim lands the “real” reason for their expulsion i.e. that they had the audacity to point out the “error” in the Qur’an stating their belief that Ezra is the Son of God?

Excellent point Hamba, if the Jews who believed this were expelled instead of slaughtered, that means they had to go somewhere, and their belief system continued.

So where are they?

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

And since the Qur’an is stating that the Jews were worshiping Ezra, then all that the Jews of Medina at the time had to do was to point this out to all of the other literally thousands of enemies of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) that these verses of the Qur’an were simply false and Islam would have been destroyed there and then.

However, the simple FACT of the matter is that NONE of the enemies of Islam (Jews and non-Jews alike) at the time of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) ever pointed this out and so their total silence on the matter is really clear proof & confirmation that what the Qur’an has stated is indeed the truth that they themselves not only could not but were just not willing to dispute.

So let me get this straight…you are claiming that the Jews do worship Ezra as the Son of God because the Quran says so, and because none of the Jews at the time protested it? Of course if the Jews in Medina, or at least the ones that Mohammad interacted with, did indeed believe Ezra to be the Son of God, then it would be nonsensical for them to protest it. That doesn’t mean the Quran isn’t in error.

Let me present a parable. Let’s say a non-Christian man grows up in a predominantly fundamentalist Christian town, and the only Christians he knows are King James Version-Only Christians. He writes a book claiming that the Christians all believe this, and explains “this” as being everything held by the KJV-Only belief. No one in his town is going to protest that point, because they are all KJV-Only and would agree with that. However, his position is still entirely false, because only a small minority of Christians are KJV-Only, yet he is speaking of general Christians continually in his book and interviews. His calls that the Christians are to be punished, cursed and even damned for their KJV-Only would also be absurd, as the vast majority of Christians are not KJV-Only, and to bring it up would be a waste of time.

Therefore, it seems that you are inadvertently arguing that the Quran suffers from a logical fallacy known as hasty generalization - ie., because Mohammad met Jews in Medina that believed Ezra was the Son of God, he assumed all Jews believed Ezra was the Son of God. This is what seems to be reflected in the Quranic and hadith sources that I cited in my two-part OP.

 

[hamba2han]

Modern-day Jews do NOT know where Solomon Temple was located… and NO, it is NOT situated at what they now call Temple Mount.

And so, how can they be so sure that ancient Jews did not worship Ezra?

Just because Jews cannot find parts of their scriptures does NOT show that the Qur’an is wrong.

I mean, modern-day Jews did NOT know anything about what the ancient Jews of the Dead Sea Scrolls believed in before their discovery in 1947.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Modern-day Jews do NOT know where Solomon Temple was located… and NO, it is NOT situated at what they now call Temple Mount.

And so, how can they be so sure that ancient Jews did not worship Ezra?

That’s another logical fallacy known as “proving a negative,” also known as burden of proof. In other words, you are saying, “Well, what proof is there that the ancient Jews DIDN’T worship Ezra as the Son of God?” Of course by this logic, even the Book of Mormon is true - after all, there are some things we don’t know or are uncertain about the ancient Native Americans, therefore how can we be certain that a Hebrew tribe didn’t sail across the Atlantic and make a home there and start a monotheistic, Abrahamic faith? By your reasoning, one could make the claim that the ancient Jews worshiped the Tooth Fairy, and so long as no one can prove they didn’t worship the Tooth Fairy, we have to accept that as canon.

The weight of evidence, however, is on the person making the claim. If you wish to argue that ancient Jews (or Jews around the 7th century, any way) believed Ezra was the Son of God in the same manner Christians believed Christ was the Son of God, you are the one who must present the evidence.

 

[hamba2han]

That’s another logical fallacy known as “proving a negative,” also known as burden of proof. In other words, you are saying, “Well, what proof is there that the ancient Jews DIDN’T worship Ezra as the Son of God?” Of course by this logic, even the Book of Mormon is true - after all, there are some things we don’t know or are uncertain about the ancient Native Americans, therefore how can we be certain that a Hebrew tribe didn’t sail across the Atlantic and make a home there and start a monotheistic, Abrahamic faith? By your reasoning, one could make the claim that the ancient Jews worshiped the Tooth Fairy, and so long as no one can prove they didn’t worship the Tooth Fairy, we have to accept that as canon.

The weight of evidence, however, is on the person making the claim. If you wish to argue that ancient Jews (or Jews around the 7th century, any way) believed Ezra was the Son of God in the same manner Christians believed Christ was the Son of God, you are the one who must present the evidence.

The indisputable FACT of the matter is that modern-day Jews do NOT have ALL of their scriptures… and the parts that they do have have been subjected to various forms of edition.

Muslims, on the other hand, do indeed have ALL of our scriptures intact and in the case of the ahadith, in virtually unedited form as compared to Jewish scriptures.

 

[dzheremi]

Modern-day Jews do NOT know where Solomon Temple was located… and NO, it is NOT situated at what they now call Temple Mount.

So because they don’t agree with you about where it is, or admit that they don’t know where it is (I’m not sure where you’re getting your information, so I don’t really even know which claim you’re making…), then that means YOU know where it is? And also that they must be wrong about their own THEOLOGY? How are the two connected in any way, and why would you expect any Jew to agree with your Islamic viewpoint regarding this or anything else?

And so, how can they be so sure that ancient Jews did not worship Ezra?

Is this seriously your argument? Ya Allah, you are BAD at this.

Just because Jews cannot find parts of their scriptures does NOT show that the Qur’an is wrong.

Um…so what makes you think that you know better than they do what they believe? You have no source outside of the Qur’an to say that they ever believed this, and that is not acceptable to Jews, so where do you get off?

I mean, modern-day Jews did NOT know anything about what the ancient Jews of the Dead Sea Scrolls believed in before their discovery in 1947.

I forgot that the Tanakh and the Torah only came into existence in 1947…pardon me…

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

The indisputable FACT of the matter is that modern-day Jews do NOT have ALL of their scriptures… and the parts that they do have have been subjected to various forms of edition.

Muslims, on the other hand, do indeed have ALL of our scriptures intact and in the case of the ahadith, in virtually unedited form as compared to Jewish scriptures.

First off, underlining every other word does not make your argument any more or less right.

Second off, I can see what you are attempting to do, which is divert the subject from the topic, but it isn’t going to work.

I’m going to ask you: can you present any sources outside of the hadith or Islamic traditions that confirm that the Jews as a faith worshiped Ezra as the Son of God in the same context that Christians worshiped Jesus as the Son of God? If you wish to make that claim, please back it up with scholarly evidence.

 

[spn82756]

The indisputable FACT of the matter is that modern-day Jews do NOT have ALL of their scriptures… and the parts that they do have have been subjected to various forms of edition.

Muslims, on the other hand, do indeed have ALL of our scriptures intact and in the case of the ahadith, in virtually unedited form as compared to Jewish scriptures.

If it is indisputable that Jews do not have all of THEIR scriptures…then I’m sure you can provide a non-muslim source for that. Remember…the quran is not the word of God…just the dreams of the prophet of the moon god.

 

[Nine_Two]

Modern-day Jews do NOT know where Solomon Temple was located… and NO, it is NOT situated at what they now call Temple Mount.

Then I take it you know where the temple was?

Because there is a long tradition which agrees that is the site, a tradition far older than Islam.

And so, how can they be so sure that ancient Jews did not worship Ezra?

How can we be sure Mohammed wasn’t a goat?

Just because Jews cannot find parts of their scriptures does NOT show that the Qur’an is wrong.

Just because Muslims can’t find some of their scriptures doesn’t mean Mohammed wasn’t a goat.

I mean, modern-day Jews did NOT know anything about what the ancient Jews of the Dead Sea Scrolls believed in before their discovery in 1947.

Modern Judaism grew out of the Pharisitic tradition, the dead sea scrolls come from a group called Essenes, to expect the pharisees to preserve Essene teaching is like expecting Muslims to preserve Manichean teaching.

 

[Nine_Two]

The indisputable FACT of the matter is that modern-day Jews do NOT have ALL of their scriptures… and the parts that they do have have been subjected to various forms of edition.

Muslims, on the other hand, do indeed have ALL of our scriptures intact and in the case of the ahadith, in virtually unedited form as compared to Jewish scriptures.

Pretty sure Uthman undertook a major redaction of the Koran. Pretty sure this is backed up by facts, and not emotion, as the claim that the koran is intact is.

 

[spn82756]

How can we be sure Mohammed wasn’t a goat?
Just because Muslims can’t find some of their scriptures doesn’t mean Mohammed wasn’t a goat.

Can we be sure?

 

[spn82756]

To me the argument is simple.

The Angel Gabriel announced to Mary that she would have the Son of the Most High. That Jesus would be His Name and that he would save the world from their sins. Gabriel told Mary that Jesus…the baby she would have…is God Incarnate. The Word made flesh.

Then 600 years later…the same angel gabriel told mohammed that Jesus isn’t God. Now…who has the most to gain from the denial of Jesus? It’s clear. Satan! That is who mohammad’s gabriel was. Satan…a wolf dressed in sheep’s clothing. Look at how many people have been lead astray. Look at how many souls lost.

 

[aspirant]

modern-day Jews did NOT know anything about what the ancient Jews of the Dead Sea Scrolls believed in before their discovery in 1947.

This is, of course, not true. Even before the scrolls were discovered, other ancient documents informed people throughout history about the existence, beliefs, and practices of the Essenes. I have a first century book right here that includes several pages about the Essenes, Josephus’ The Jewish War:

“Among the Jews there are three schools of thought, whose adherents are called Pharisees, Sadducees, and Essenes respectively. The Essenes profess a severer discipline: they are Jews by birth and are peculiarly attached to each other… They show devotion to the Deity in a way all their own… they declare that for the good souls there awaits a home… troubled by neither rain nor snow nor heat, but refreshed by the zephyr that blows ever gentle from the ocean. Bad souls they consign to a darksome, stormy abyss full of punishments that know no end… They tell these tales firstly because they believe souls to be immortal, and secondly in the hope of encouraging virtue and discouraging vice… This then is the religious teaching of the Essenes about the soul, providing an inescapable inducement to those who have once tasted their wisdom…”

As I said, it goes on for pages about their beliefs and practices. The rediscovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls did not inform moderns about the existence of a Jewish sect of which they had never heard, but provided them more information about a Jewish sect about which they’d already long known.

to expect the pharisees to preserve Essene teaching is like expecting Muslims to preserve Manichean teaching.

And yet both Jews and Gentiles did, in fact, preserve some ancient information about the beliefs and practices of the Essenes. A good bit about them was known even before the Dead Sea Scrolls were rediscovered.

 

[hamba2han]

On a somewhat related note, Jews are very likely praying at the retaining wall of Fort Antonia, the fortress that was used by the Roman soldiers who destroyed their Temple some 2,000 years ago.

Have a look at:

biblemysteries.com/lectures/builtwailingwall.htm

For Jews to continue believing that the Haram al-Sharif is the site of the Temple Mount, then the archeological evidence uncovered so far needs to support this view.

However, the fact of the matter is that after 40 years of the most extensive archeological excavations at the site by Israeli scientists using the most modern and sophisticated intruments available, all of these excavations have failed to turn up any tangible evidence whatsoever that there was ever an ancient Jewish temple there.

Therefore, the logical and sensible thing for the Jews to do now would be to finally acknowledge the fact that the Haram al-Sharif is simply NOT the site of the Temple Mount and for them to continue their search for the location of the lost Temples elsewhere.

And so then, if the Jews can manage to misplace a building complex as massive as the Temple of Solomon, then why are there people here who are insisting on seeing their misplaced (and I would expect voluminous) ancient writings as “proof” of what the Jews back then believed in?

 

[hamba2han]

The Qur’an is the verbatim Speech of God and is 100% unedited.

The ahadith, on the other hand, is a reporting by the companions of the words and actions of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and so it cannot be 100% unedited as the Qur’an is.

 

[Sam_777]

The Qur’an is the verbatim Speech of God and is 100% unedited.

**Sahih Muslim, Book 017, Number 4194:
**** Sahih Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 82, Number 817:
**A particular verse of the stoning punishment (for stoning Shekhs(males) & Shekhas(females)) was revealed to Muhammad, but now it’s not found in Quran.
(E) (A).
(E) (A).

**Musnad Ahmad, Hadith# 20260: **(A)
Sura#33 (Alahzab) in Quran was identical to the length of sura#2 (Albaqara), but now its shorter than that.

** Sunan Abn Majah, Hadith# 1934: **(A)
Some suras of Quran were eaten by a goat under Aisha’s bed.

 

[hamba2han]

**Sahih Muslim, Book 017, Number 4194:
**** Sahih Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 82, Number 817:
**A particular verse of the stoning punishment (for stoning Shekhs(males) & Shekhas(females)) was revealed to Muhammad, but now it’s not found in Quran.
(E) (A).
(E) (A).

**Musnad Ahmad, Hadith# 20260: **(A)
Sura#33 (Alahzab) in Quran was identical to the length of sura#2 (Albaqara), but now its shorter than that.

** Sunan Abn Majah, Hadith# 1934: **(A)
Some suras of Quran were eaten by a goat under Aisha’s bed.

I forgot to add that there was only one man in the history of humankind who was divinely authorized to edit the Qur’an… and that was the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

It has been established from authentic traditions that the angel Gabriel, who conveyed the revelations of God to the Prophet, himself arranged these verses. Each year during the month of Ramadan, Gabriel would come to the Prophet and recite before him all the Qur’anic verses revealed up till that time in the order in which they exist today, after which the Prophet would repeat the verses in exactly the same order. This dual process has been termed al-Irza, ‘mutual presentation,’ in the books of hadith.

It has also been established that in the last year of the Prophet’s life, when the revelations had been completed, Gabriel came to the Prophet and recited the entire Qur’an in the existing order twice, and similarly the Prophet also recited to Gabriel the entire Qur’an twice. This final presentation is called al-Arz al-Akhirah in the books of hadith.

When by the help of Gabriel, the Qur’an was fully and systematically arranged, the Prophet recited it to his companions on different occasions in the order with which we are familiar today. The Qur’an was thus preserved in its pristine form in the memories of tens of thousands of the companions during the Prophet’s lifetime.

In short, the complete Qur’an that we have today was authenticated by the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) himself shortly before he died and it has remained 100% unedited ever since.

 

[Sam_777]

It has been established from authentic traditions that the angel Gabriel, who conveyed the revelations of God to the Prophet, himself arranged these verses.

The question is how we make sure that he was Gabriel when Muhammed himself didn’t know him the first time NOR that Angel troubled himself a bit to cite his name .

*Sahih Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 1, Number 3:
"The Prophet added, “The angel caught me (forcefully) and pressed me so hard that I could not bear it any more. He then released me and again asked me to read and I replied, ‘I do not know how to read.’ Thereupon he caught me again and pressed me a second time till I could not bear it any more. He then released me and again asked me to read but again I replied, ‘I do not know how to read (or what shall I read)?’ Thereupon he caught me for the third time and pressed me, and then released me and said, 'Read in the name of your Lord, who has created (all that exists) has created man from a clot. Read! And your Lord is the Most Generous.” (96.1, 96.2, 96.3) Then Allah’s Apostle returned with the Inspiration and with his heart beating severely. Then he went to Khadija bint Khuwailid and said, “Cover me! Cover me!” They covered him till his fear was over and after that he told her everything that had happened and said, “I fear that something may happen to me.” Khadija replied, “Never! By Allah, Allah will never disgrace you. You keep good relations with your Kith and kin, help the poor and the destitute, serve your guests generously and assist the deserving calamity-afflicted ones.”

Khadija then accompanied him to her cousin Waraqa bin Naufal bin Asad bin 'Abdul 'Uzza, who, during the PreIslamic Period became a Christian and used to write the writing with Hebrew letters. He would write from the Gospel in Hebrew as much as Allah wished him to write. He was an old man and had lost his eyesight. Khadija said to Waraqa, “Listen to the story of your nephew, O my cousin!” Waraqa asked, “O my nephew! What have you seen?” Allah’s Apostle described whatever he had seen. Waraqa said, “This is the same one who keeps the secrets (angel Gabriel) whom Allah had sent to Moses. I wish I were young and could live up to the time when your people would turn you out.” Allah’s Apostle asked, “Will they drive me out?” Waraqa replied in the affirmative and said, “Anyone (man) who came with something similar to what you have brought was treated with hostility; and if I should remain alive till the day when you will be turned out then I would support you strongly.” But after a few days Waraqa died and the Divine Inspiration was also paused for a while. "*
(E) (A).

 

[Nine_Two]

On a somewhat related note, Jews are very likely praying at the retaining wall of Fort Antonia, the fortress that was used by the Roman soldiers who destroyed their Temple some 2,000 years ago.

Have a look at:

biblemysteries.com/lectures/builtwailingwall.htm

For Jews to continue believing that the Haram al-Sharif is the site of the Temple Mount, then the archeological evidence uncovered so far needs to support this view.

However, the fact of the matter is that after 40 years of the most extensive archeological excavations at the site by Israeli scientists using the most modern and sophisticated intruments available, all of these excavations have failed to turn up any tangible evidence whatsoever that there was ever an ancient Jewish temple there.

Therefore, the logical and sensible thing for the Jews to do now would be to finally acknowledge the fact that the Haram al-Sharif is simply NOT the site of the Temple Mount and for them to continue their search for the location of the lost Temples elsewhere.

And so then, if the Jews can manage to misplace a building complex as massive as the Temple of Solomon, then why are there people here who are insisting on seeing their misplaced (and I would expect voluminous) ancient writings as “proof” of what the Jews back then believed in?

jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1170359807477&pagename=JPArticle%2FShowFull

They have found evidence, and since you are citing archology, I would assume you’re quite aware that what excavations can be done in the area is greatly limited the fact that it is a place of major contention.

Also you keep talking about “misplaced” writings, what writings are you talking about and what proof do you have?

 

[Nine_Two]

In short, the complete Qur’an that we have today was authenticated by the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) himself shortly before he died and it has remained 100% unedited ever since.

That’s called circle logic. It doesn’t prove anything except that you don’t have a proper argument.

However you’re getting off the main point, why, if the above is true, is it blatently wrong in Surrah 9:30?