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aspirant
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BUMP.
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BUMP.
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hamba2han
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Just like how the Dead Sea Scrolls were eventually discovered, I am fairly confident that evidence from non-Muslim sources will also be discovered sooner or later, God-willing, perhaps in some hitherto unexplored cave or underground cavern somewhere. .
In the meantime, have patience and keep on waiting.
In the meantime, have patience and keep on waiting.
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aspirant
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The existence of Essenes and some knowledge of their beliefs and practices were available through both Jewish and Gentile sources even before that.
In the meantime, where’s the evidence now? Muslims here have already claimed it exists and is known.
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spn82756
Guest
Hamba…you are the one who claims to have independent truth. So are you going to wait for someone to find documents to prove that Satan appeared to Mohammad before you accept Christ as God…the Great I AM? You shouldn’t. You should just take the Bible on its word.
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spn82756
Guest
After just a few months of posting…I learned that quickly! 
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hamba2han
Guest
Muslims are perfectly satisfied with the admission of the Jews of Medina by their silence on the matter when the said Qur’anic verse regarding Ezra was recited to them.
If non-Muslims are still not satisfied by this silent testimony of the Jews of Medina, then how is this our problem?
And the simple answer is that it is NOT a Muslim problem if non-Muslims insist on seeing evidence from a non-Muslim source…
If non-Muslims are still not satisfied by this silent testimony of the Jews of Medina, then how is this our problem?
And the simple answer is that it is NOT a Muslim problem if non-Muslims insist on seeing evidence from a non-Muslim source…
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hamba2han
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When the said verse of the Qur’an was revealed, it was then recited to the Jews of Medina themselves… and they did NOT dispute it.
If the verse was not the truth, then what other conclusion can we infer from their silence on the matter?
If the verse was not the truth, then what other conclusion can we infer from their silence on the matter?
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dzheremi
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Two things:
- How do you know that they did not dispute it? Some Qur’anic source, I’m sure. Are there even any existent documents from the Jews of Medina themselves, so that we can see what they say about themselves, not just what Muhammad or other Muslim sources say about them? Because obviously any citations from the Qur’an are self-serving and will not be accepted by non-Muslims.
- Even if they did not dispute it, what would that necessarily mean? I don’t know why that would mean it is correct, because there is such a thing as being “too far out there” to warrant a response. This is how I often feel about your posts and the posts of some other Islamic apologists here, in fact. Should the Jews of Medina (or anywhere) have to prove to Muhammad that they don’t believe something that he is convinced that Allah has told him that they do? What good would that do? It is not as though if the Jews of Medina had said “no, no, we don’t do that…you got it all wrong”, then Muhammad would respond “Oh, okay. Let me just strike that out, then. Allah must’ve been having an off day!” Muhammad, even if he were knowingly placing this verse in the mouth of Allah rather than the other way around, had appearances to maintain, and it is not good for the image a self-proclaimed prophet if he is constantly editing and re-editing his “revelations”. So, I can imagine a situation in which Muhammad recites the verse to the Jews of Medina and they say to themselves “There goes Muhammad…rambling on about something that we have no idea about. What a sad fool, thinking that he’s a prophet while saying such obvious falsehoods about everyone. He is delusional.” This was the Christian reaction to Islamic claims about Christianity, too (see, for instance, St. John of Damascus’ criticism of Islam here), so I don’t know why the Jews would not react in a similar fashion to something so outlandishly false and stupid. St. John of Damascus just had the good sense to write it down.
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spn82756
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Let’s see… I’m going to use your own words to explain something.
if non-Christians are not satisfied by the Bible’s prophecy about Christ and the New Testaments affirmation of that…then how is that a problem for Christians?
And the simple answer is that it is NOT a Christian problem if non-Christians insist on seeing evidence from a non-Biblical source!
Geeeee…Thanks Hamba!!
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hamba2han
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We are going around in circles here.
Like I have previously explained in my earlier post, it was really not difficult at all for the enemies of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) back then to destroy the new faith that he brought which was threatening the very core of their beliefs.
If indeed there was a good reason why the Jews did not want to dispute the truth of this verse, then there were many other powerful non-Jewish enemies of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) who would have gleefully pointed out this “error” in the Qur’an and thereby destroy Islam…
Like I have previously explained in my earlier post, it was really not difficult at all for the enemies of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) back then to destroy the new faith that he brought which was threatening the very core of their beliefs.
If indeed there was a good reason why the Jews did not want to dispute the truth of this verse, then there were many other powerful non-Jewish enemies of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) who would have gleefully pointed out this “error” in the Qur’an and thereby destroy Islam…
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spn82756
Guest
So you say. Mohammad became brutal with his enemies. Like today where muslims are persecuting Christians in places like Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Gaza, Pakistan, Sudan, Libya, and on and on.
See…you muslims are lucky. You can live in the west and be free to worship allah the moon god or any other god you please. Christians in muslim countries are not so lucky. Like I’ve said many times in this forum…Satan is the one being with the most to gain from rejection of Christ.
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dzheremi
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Ya Rabb, please give me the strength to respond to this idiocy ONE MORE TIME… 
Hamba…buddy…pal…what have any of us who have opposed your wild accusations and assertions in this thread been doing but pointing out the error in the Qur’an regarding this issue? What else do you think this thread is about? As of now, we have SIX PAGES that point out the error of the Qur’an, and yet Islam remains un-destroyed. You continue to believe in it. What does that tell you about your most recent line of argument?
Hamba…buddy…pal…what have any of us who have opposed your wild accusations and assertions in this thread been doing but pointing out the error in the Qur’an regarding this issue? What else do you think this thread is about? As of now, we have SIX PAGES that point out the error of the Qur’an, and yet Islam remains un-destroyed. You continue to believe in it. What does that tell you about your most recent line of argument?
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Nine_Two
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Err what exactly do you think was in the Dead Sea Scrolls?
Almost all of it was well known Jewish scripture. About the only thing that wasn’t was a long boring tract (I’ve read it) outlining the moral discipline of the community, but which pertained specifically to the sect of Essenes.
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Nine_Two
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It is a Muslim problem if you can’t defend your own faith as it shows you don’t take it seriously.
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Nine_Two
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I didn’t dispute Planten the last time he told me Christians are Polytheists. Clearly I accept he’s right.
This might have been a bad example, you probably think we’re polytheists because the Koran says so.
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Nine_Two
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It’s not difficult now except Muslims seem to prefer to put fingers in their ears and shout “LALALALALALALALALA”
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spn82756
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But clearly…muslims and the koran have no understanding of the Trinity. Can muslims even own the Bible? I think not…at least not without punishment.
Even American Christians stationed in Saudi Arabia during the Gulf Wars were required to take off any Crosses or Crucifixes. They could not bring Bibles with them. This is the tolerance that Hamba, planten, and servantofallah talk about.
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hamba2han
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I have infinitely more faith in the silent testimony of the Jews of Medina themselves and also all of the other thousands of both followers and enemies of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) back then regarding the truth of the said Qur’anic verse rather than rely on the “knowledge” of the participants of this forum regarding the beliefs of ancient Jews.Ya Rabb, please give me the strength to respond to this idiocy ONE MORE TIME…
Hamba…buddy…pal…what have any of us who have opposed your wild accusations and assertions in this thread been doing but pointing out the error in the Qur’an regarding this issue? What else do you think this thread is about? As of now, we have SIX PAGES that point out the error of the Qur’an, and yet Islam remains un-destroyed. You continue to believe in it. What does that tell you about your most recent line of argument?
How exactly do you KNOW for sure the beliefs and practices of ancient Jews??
It is a rhetorical question and so there is no need to answer.
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spn82756
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The reason that there is no reason to answer is because you’re going in circles. Read my post above that uses your own words.
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Byzantine_Wolf
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So Hamba, I don’t think you’re quite addressing my question in the OP…
If the Quran is indeed only talking about a small sect of Judaism, then why does it say that the Jews will be punished for this belief? Who do Muslim commentators say that it is because of this lie that the Jews will be punished? Why do the hadith say that on the day of judgment the Jews will make this claim that they believed it and so they will be punished?
Repeating the argument that it was a small sect of Jews is really avoiding a real response, because I admitted to that argumentation in the OP and addressed it. Therefore please respond to these specific questions which have been lobbied against the Muslim members of CAF since page 1.
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