For Muslims: Ezra...the Son of God?

[Nine_Two]

How exactly do you KNOW for sure the beliefs and practices of ancient Jews??

It is a rhetorical question and so there is no need to answer.

No it’s not. A rhetorical question is a rhetorical device wherin you ask a question with a self evident answer so that your opponent will come to the required logical outcome of the debate. The problem is the answer, which I agree is self evident, is not the one you’re looking for, thus it is not a rhetorical question, but one asked out of ignorence.

The answer is study. We know what the Jews of however many thousand years ago (1, 2, 3, whatever) because they left a lot of documentation of their beliefs at each stage. Because writting is very much a part of Jewish tradition, I would be very surprised if there was a sect which left none.

 

[hamba2han]

So Hamba, I don’t think you’re quite addressing my question in the OP…

If the Quran is indeed only talking about a small sect of Judaism, then why does it say that the Jews will be punished for this belief? Who do Muslim commentators say that it is because of this lie that the Jews will be punished? Why do the hadith say that on the day of judgment the Jews will make this claim that they believed it and so they will be punished?

Repeating the argument that it was a small sect of Jews is really avoiding a real response, because I admitted to that argumentation in the OP and addressed it. Therefore please respond to these specific questions which have been lobbied against the Muslim members of CAF since page 1.

Only the Almighty would really know the beliefs and practices of ancient Jews and so this verse of the Qur’an may well be referring to a widespread belief of the ancient Jews… or it could not… I just do not know.

And to tell the truth, it is not really a burning issue for me and so I see little point in delving into the problem of ancient Jews who believed that God has a Son.

I mean, there is really NOTHING that Muslims can now do to change their fate in the Hereafter, is there?

However, when it comes to modern-day Christians who say pretty much the same thing, then perhaps Muslims can do our part in trying to save their misguided souls from eternal punishment in the Hell-fire.

 

[spn82756]

Only the Almighty would really know the beliefs and practices of ancient Jews and so this verse of the Qur’an may well be referring to a widespread belief of the ancient Jews… or it could not… I just do not know.

And to tell the truth, it is not really a burning issue for me and so I see little point in delving into the problem of ancient Jews who believed that God has a Son.

I mean, there is really NOTHING that Muslims can now do to change their fate in the Hereafter, is there?

However, when it comes to modern-day Christians who say pretty much the same thing, then perhaps Muslims can do our part in trying to save their misguided souls from eternal punishment in the Hell-fire.

You’re the one who tried to prove the Jews worshiped Ezra. Now it’s not important? Typical of you.

Now…once again. mohammad (in hell as depicted in Dante’s Inferno) claimed the Angel Gabriel told him that Jesus is not divine. This is the same angel that said Jesus is divine. Sounds like your angel is Satan to me. Please don’t pray for my soul. Jesus has taken care of me.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Only the Almighty would really know the beliefs and practices of ancient Jews and so this verse of the Qur’an may well be referring to a widespread belief of the ancient Jews… or it could not… I just do not know.

So if I understand your argument correctly, and feel free to correct me if I’m wrong…

You’re basically arguing that the ancient Jews (or, again, the Jews of the 7th century AD) believed as an entire people that Ezra was the Son of God, something of which there is absolutely no evidence for outside of Islamic sources?

But then you admit that you “don’t know”? Then why are you pontificating on a position that you yourself admit is faulty? And if Muslims are unable to answer this question, is that the fault on history, or is that the fault on the Quran?

 

[aspirant]

Muslims are perfectly satisfied with the admission of the Jews of Medina by their silence on the matter when the said Qur’anic verse regarding Ezra was recited to them.

I have yet to see any evidence apart from your unsupported say-so that it was recited to them or that, if it was, they kept silent.

 

[aspirant]

LOL.

 

[aspirant]

How exactly do you KNOW for sure the beliefs and practices of ancient Jews??

We still have ancient records, artifacts, etc. from both Jewish and Gentile sources. It’s really not hard to acquire very reliable information about the beliefs and practices of ancient Jews.

 

[Nine_Two]

Only the Almighty would really know the beliefs and practices of ancient Jews and so this verse of the Qur’an may well be referring to a widespread belief of the ancient Jews… or it could not… I just do not know.

And to tell the truth, it is not really a burning issue for me and so I see little point in delving into the problem of ancient Jews who believed that God has a Son.

I mean, there is really NOTHING that Muslims can now do to change their fate in the Hereafter, is there?

However, when it comes to modern-day Christians who say pretty much the same thing, then perhaps Muslims can do our part in trying to save their misguided souls from eternal punishment in the Hell-fire.

So the question on whether something in the Koran, a book you believe to be perfect, is a blatent mistruth is not a burning issue for you?

I take the Apostolic succession of my Church as seriously as you take the truth of the Koran, so if I found out there was reason to suspect it had actually been founded by Bob and Kathy Gibson of New Jersey, I’d most certainly see this as a real issue that needed to be looked into.

Are you sure it is that it isn’t a burning issue, or you just don’t want to know the truth?

For such is the structure of islam structured that if this little verse is flat out wrong, then your entire faith is a lie.

And indeed there is something you can do to change your fate…

 

[hamba2han]

I have been reading some of the other threads here which touches on the Qur’an.

And the thing that is just so obvious when I read the posts is the single-minded determination of the detractors of Islam on these boards to find errors in the Qur’an… even imagined errors.

Well then, as I have pointed out in another thread, human emotions and reactions have not changed even a bit throughout the course of human history… and hence modern-day detractors of Islam really do need to realise that their single-minded determination to find errors in the Qur’an is really no different at all to the equally single-minded determination of the enemies of Islam during the time of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) to find errors in the verses of Qur’an as they were revealed to him.

This means of course that since the Jews of Medina never disputed the said Qur’anic verse when it was recited to them, then it must indeed be confirmatory proof that the verse about them saying that Ezra is the Son of God is indeed the truth.

And no amount of logical reasoning can say otherwise.

 

[hamba2han]

The Christians on these boards have no hesitation at all in strenuously denying that they worship 3 gods (which the Qur’an does not say BTW)… and so, why shouldn’t the Jews back then also strenuously deny that they say Ezra is the Son of God (which the Qur’an does indeed say)?

 

[dzheremi]

Because there are only a few Jews here and they have better things to do?

 

[Nine_Two]

I have been reading some of the other threads here which touches on the Qur’an.

And the thing that is just so obvious when I read the posts is the single-minded determination of the detractors of Islam on these boards to find errors in the Qur’an… even imagined errors.

Well then, as I have pointed out in another thread, human emotions and reactions have not changed even a bit throughout the course of human history… and hence modern-day detractors of Islam really do need to realise that their single-minded determination to find errors in the Qur’an is really no different at all to the equally single-minded determination of the enemies of Islam during the time of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) to find errors in the verses of Qur’an as they were revealed to him.

This means of course that since the Jews of Medina never disputed the said Qur’anic verse when it was recited to them, then it must indeed be confirmatory proof that the verse about them saying that Ezra is the Son of God is indeed the truth.

And no amount of logical reasoning can say otherwise.

If people here have a single minded determination, it’s to get a valid argument out of a Muslim, rather than all this ignoring the point stuff that you and your friends like to do.

 

[Nine_Two]

I commented on another thread that Mohammed was a goat. None of the Muslim posters disagreed so it must mean that all Muslims think Muhammed is a goat.

 

[Nine_Two]

The Christians on these boards have no hesitation at all in strenuously denying that they worship 3 gods (which the Qur’an does not say BTW)… and so, why shouldn’t the Jews back then also strenuously deny that they say Ezra is the Son of God (which the Qur’an does indeed say)?

Because claiming we worship three Gods is a misunderstanding of the trinity. Saying the Jews worship Ezra is just making stupid things up.

 

[jakasaki]

I commented on another thread that Mohammed was a goat. None of the Muslim posters disagreed so it must mean that all Muslims think Muhammed is a goat.

“Silent Testimony” means … yes, it’s true…

Just like in their hadiths… silence means approval!!!

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

I have been reading some of the other threads here which touches on the Qur’an.

And the thing that is just so obvious when I read the posts is the single-minded determination of the detractors of Islam on these boards to find errors in the Qur’an… even imagined errors.

Excuse me, sir, but I asked you some questions in my previous post:

So if I understand your argument correctly, and feel free to correct me if I’m wrong…

You’re basically arguing that the ancient Jews (or, again, the Jews of the 7th century AD) believed as an entire people that Ezra was the Son of God, something of which there is absolutely no evidence for outside of Islamic sources?

But then you admit that you “don’t know”? Then why are you pontificating on a position that you yourself admit is faulty? And if Muslims are unable to answer this question, is that the fault on history, or is that the fault on the Quran?

Now if you think these are imaginary errors, please continue in educating me why. As the author of the OP, I would kindly ask that you maintain the topic.

 

[Nine_Two]

They’ve yet to deny either possibility. You ready to fight it out?

 

[hamba2han]

Excuse me, sir, but I asked you some questions in my previous post:

Now if you think these are imaginary errors, please continue in educating me why. As the author of the OP, I would kindly ask that you maintain the topic.

When one gets a speeding ticket from the traffic police and one does NOT dispute it, then the case is settled and there is no need at all for the authorities to adduce evidence in a court of law to prove the guilt of the traffic offender.

That is the way it works in the modern world and therefore I see absolutely no reason why this should not also be the same in the case of the Jews of Medina saying that Ezra is the Son of God.

Seeing this matter from a purely legal viewpoint, since the people accused of saying that Ezra is the Son of God did NOT dispute the charge leveled against them, the case is CLOSED and there is NO need whatsoever for Muslim “prosecutors” to adduce any additional evidence against them.

By their total silence when the “charges” were read against them, the Jews of Medina back then have indeed admitted their wrongdoing and as far as Muslims are concerned, the case has long been CLOSED.

And if non-Muslims wish to re-open the case, then it is THEY who need to produce any new evidence, NOT the other way round.

 

[Nine_Two]

Case closed everyone, by his lack of response, utilizing his own logic Hamba just acknowledged that Mohammed was a goat. Or possibly a toy squirrel, we don’t know yet. And as we all know neither goats nor squirrels can be prophets, we thus know the Koran is one big lie.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

When one gets a speeding ticket from the traffic police and one does NOT dispute it, then the case is settled and there is no need at all for the authorities to adduce evidence in a court of law to prove the guilt of the traffic offender.

That is the way it works in the modern world and therefore I see absolutely no reason why this should not also be the same in the case of the Jews of Medina saying that Ezra is the Son of God.

Seeing this matter from a purely legal viewpoint, since the people accused of saying that Ezra is the Son of God did NOT dispute the charge leveled against them, the case is CLOSED and there is NO need whatsoever for Muslim “prosecutors” to adduce any additional evidence against them.

By their total silence when the “charges” were read against them, the Jews of Medina back then have indeed admitted their wrongdoing and as far as Muslims are concerned, the case has long been CLOSED.

I’m happy to see that you completely ignore the argumentation that was already presented to you on such statements. I would appreciate it if you would at least respond to that, since I already addressed all these points you are presenting.