For Muslims: Ezra...the Son of God?

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Byzantine_Wolf said:
I’m happy to see that you completely ignore the argumentation that was already presented to you on such statements. I would appreciate it if you would at least respond to that, since I already addressed all these points you are presenting.
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Let us at least agree on a fundamental point here i.e. no one except Almighty God Himself would KNOW for sure the beliefs and practices of ancient Jews.

Are we agreed on this point?… because if we do not agree on this point, then this is where the problem arises.

And since it is only God who would KNOW for sure the beliefs and practices of ancient Jews, then why should anyone spend so much time, energy and aggravation on something that is impossible to know the full details of?
 
hamba2han said:
Let us at least agree on a fundamental point here i.e. no one except Almighty God Himself would KNOW for sure the beliefs and practices of ancient Jews.

Are we agreed on this point?… because if we do not agree on this point, then this is where the problem arises.

And since it is only God who would KNOW for sure the beliefs and practices of ancient Jews, then why should anyone spend so much time, energy and aggravation on something that is impossible to know the full details of?
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Aside from the silly argumentation that we have no way of knowing what ancient people believed (aside from, I’m sure, archeology, textual transmission, preserved tradition, outside records and all those other sources which those who wish to make scholarly arguments look to), this leads again to the point I wish you would address, and the point that you seem to be making:

Are to assume, from what you are arguing, that around the 7th century AD Jews as a whole suddenly started worshiping Ezra as the Son of God, and the only evidence to support this is the Quran and hadith sources, which are sourced to only one small part of the world?
 
Maybe the word “Arabic” should have been added next to the Jews, so that it reads “Arabic Jews said Ezra is the Son of God”, I think that would resolve all of these disputes…
 
Sam_777 said:
Maybe the word “Arabic” should have been added next to the Jews, so that it reads “Arabic Jews said Ezra is the Son of God”, I think that would resolve all of these disputes…
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And also : " at the time of me" ( me resembling Muhammad) or “at the time of the Muhammad’s life”…and also don’t forget to change the word worship, veneration would be better…
But that would make no reason to fight the Jew later on
hah…:rolleyes:
 
Byzantine_Wolf said:
Aside from the silly argumentation that we have no way of knowing what ancient people believed (aside from, I’m sure, archeology, textual transmission, preserved tradition, outside records and all those other sources which those who wish to make scholarly arguments look to), this leads again to the point I wish you would address, and the point that you seem to be making:

Are to assume, from what you are arguing, that around the 7th century AD Jews as a whole suddenly started worshiping Ezra as the Son of God, and the only evidence to support this is the Quran and hadith sources, which are sourced to only one small part of the world?
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At this juncture, the ONLY thing about the Qur’anic verse in question that I am 100% certain of is that the Jews of Medina did NOT dispute it when it was recited to them after the verse was revealed to the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

As to the question of whether or not earlier Jewish tribes in history also said that Ezra is the Son of God, only Almighty God Himself would know this.

Before the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, no one knew that the Essenes were waiting for not one but two Messiahs to come i.e. a priestly Messiah and a temporal Messiah.

Hence, I am fairly confident that more evidence will be discovered someday to shed more light on ancient Jewish beliefs and practices.

Until then however, the best thing for both Muslims and non-Muslims to do would be to hold on to the things that we already know about ancient Jews to be 100% true i.e. that the Jews of Medina did NOT dispute the said Qur’anic verse when it was recited to them some 1400 years ago.
 
When considering the truths of Islam where the Koran is claimed to be dicated by God i would say everyone must read the Koran and decide whether this book is the product of an all knowing transcendant Creator with knowledge of all time and talking to people of all time or whether it is the product of 7th Century Arabs with a partial knowledge of the world limited to their local vicinity.

Some people will answer for the first and some for the second, but everyone (who is interested) needs to be honest about it - otherwise, what’s the point ?
 
hamba2han said:
At this juncture, the ONLY thing about the Qur’anic verse in question that I am 100% certain of is that the Jews of Medina did NOT dispute it when it was recited to them after the verse was revealed to the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

As to the question of whether or not earlier Jewish tribes in history also said that Ezra is the Son of God, only Almighty God Himself would know this.

Before the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, no one knew that the Essenes were waiting for not one but two Messiahs to come i.e. a priestly Messiah and a temporal Messiah.

Hence, I am fairly confident that more evidence will be discovered someday to shed more light on ancient Jewish beliefs and practices.

Until then however, the best thing for both Muslims and non-Muslims to do would be to hold on to the things that we already know about ancient Jews to be 100% true i.e. that the Jews of Medina did NOT dispute the said Qur’anic verse when it was recited to them some 1400 years ago.
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Are you really reading what people are saying to you? People have responded to all these points 100-times already. I could say, “I may get some coffee after I post on CAF here,” and you would still go on, “ONLY God KNOWS what THE Jews OF Medina WORSHIPED.”

I’m going to ask you, again, to please respond to what has been given to you. If you have nothing to say, or nothing to contribute, then please just don’t respond.
 
hamba2han said:
When one gets a speeding ticket from the traffic police and one does NOT dispute it, then the case is settled and there is no need at all for the authorities to adduce evidence in a court of law to prove the guilt of the traffic offender.

That is the way it works in the modern world and therefore I see absolutely no reason why this should not also be the same in the case of the Jews of Medina saying that Ezra is the Son of God.

Seeing this matter from a purely legal viewpoint, since the people accused of saying that Ezra is the Son of God did NOT dispute the charge leveled against them, the case is CLOSED and there is NO need whatsoever for Muslim “prosecutors” to adduce any additional evidence against them.

By their total silence when the “charges” were read against them, the Jews of Medina back then have indeed admitted their wrongdoing and as far as Muslims are concerned, the case has long been CLOSED.

And if non-Muslims wish to re-open the case, then it is THEY who need to produce any new evidence, NOT the other way round.
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I’m going to challenge Hamba to say something different! Perhaps more logical.

BLAHHHH BLAHHHH BLAHHHH BLAHHHH BLAHHHH!!!
 
You’re absolutely correct. That’s why I thought I’d take a different approach! Maybe he’ll see how silly the logic he’s using is. 😃
 
OK folks, here is something new that I am posting.

You see, the thing about Qur’anic verses is that they are not just recited once and that’s it, never to be recited again.

No, Qur’anic verses are meant to be recited over and over and over and over and over and over… and over again, especailly in the 5 daily prayers of Muslims.

And so, what this means is that it is extremely likely that the Qur’anic verse in question was recited to the Jews of Medina not only once, it was actually recited to them over and over and over again after they were revealed to the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

And you know what?.. The Jews of Medina NEVER once disputed it.

And so, it is just not the silent testimony of the Jews of Medina, it is their collective silent testimonies over the course of many years that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that the said verse of the Qur’an is indeed the truth.
 
hamba2han said:
And so, what this means is that it is extremely likely that the Qur’anic verse in question was recited to the Jews of Medina not only once, it was actually recited to them over and over and over again after they were revealed to the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

And you know what?.. The Jews of Medina NEVER once disputed it.

And so, it is just not the silent testimony of the Jews of Medina, it is their collective silent testimonies over the course of many years that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that the said verse of the Qur’an is indeed the truth.
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Hamba…seriously. I’m suddenly reminded of that scene in This is Spinal Tap where a Spinal Tap crew member points out that their stereo system goes up to 11. An interviewer points out the illogical nature of having a sound system that goes to 11. After an awkward pause, the Spinal Tap crew member responds with, “Yeah but…these go to 11.”

You keep saying, “The Jews of Medina were silent.” We know. Guess what? We responded to that argument. Repeating the same argument over and over again is not going to convince any one that your side is right.

Instead of simply repeating your argument ad nauseum, respond to what is given to you. Simply repeating your argument tells people that you have no argument. If this isn’t the case, then stop performing this tactic.
 
Byzantine_Wolf said:
… and you would still go on, “ONLY God KNOWS what THE Jews OF Medina WORSHIPED.”…
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Actually, ALL Muslims know that the Jews of Medina said that Ezra is the Son of God, not only God knows this to be true.

What I posted was → Only Almighty God alone would know for sure what ancient Jews throughout the course of their history would believe and practice.
 
hamba2han said:
Actually, ALL Muslims know that the Jews of Medina said that Ezra is the Son of God, not only God knows this to be true.

What I posted was → Only Almighty God alone would know for sure what ancient Jews throughout the course of their history would believe and practice.
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***BLAHHH BLAHHH BLAHHH!

***Hamba…have you ever thought of answering peoples posts? BTW…The Gospel is recited over and over and over and over and over and over again. EVERY DAY! Jesus is GOD!!! Mohammad was visited by Satan to lead millions and millions away from eternal salvation. He’s done an excellent job!
 
Well…if Byzantine Wolf was wrong about that…then how can I believe him about anything??? 😃
 
hamba2han said:
Actually, ALL Muslims know that the Jews of Medina said that Ezra is the Son of God, not only God knows this to be true.

What I posted was → Only Almighty God alone would know for sure what ancient Jews throughout the course of their history would believe and practice.
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Don’t try to change the subject. Respond to this, please:
Byzantine_Wolf said:
Hamba…seriously. I’m suddenly reminded of that scene in This is Spinal Tap where a Spinal Tap crew member points out that their stereo system goes up to 11. An interviewer points out the illogical nature of having a sound system that goes to 11. After an awkward pause, the Spinal Tap crew member responds with, “Yeah but…these go to 11.”

You keep saying, “The Jews of Medina were silent.” We know. Guess what? We responded to that argument. Repeating the same argument over and over again is not going to convince any one that your side is right.

Instead of simply repeating your argument ad nauseum, respond to what is given to you. Simply repeating your argument tells people that you have no argument. If this isn’t the case, then stop performing this tactic.
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Since I have an acoustic and an electric guitar and never find the time to practice…can I come to God’s country of lush green for lessons? 🙂
 
Wait…first only almighty God would know (er, excuse me, only almighty God), and now all Muslims know? Which is it? And why don’t the written records of the Jews, which extend back far further than the 7th century, have any bearing on anything? It is clear to anyone who can think critically that if any Jews ever believed as the Qur’an says they did (and I have no reason to believe that they did, as the Qur’an is the only literature that I’ve ever seen that supports this belief), it was a vanishingly small group isolated to Medina, not at all worthy of a blanket condemnation from a “god” that is supposed to know everything. So the question in the OP still stands, as Muslims refuse to address it but by posting hypothetical situations and appeals to future generations to find their evidence for them. That’s just plain idiotic.

Now if you’ll excuse me, this thread has inspired me to go watch Spinal Tap. It’s been a while, and it’s easily as entertaining as watch Hamba2han twisting in the wind, with none of the associated frustration. 👍
 
OK folks, here is the deal.

If you are honest enough to say upfront and without conditions that you simply do not know for sure what ancient Jews believed and practiced, then I will stop posting the argument that the Jews of Medina did not dispute the Qur’anic verse in question.

However, if you insist on saying that you do indeed know what ancient Jews believed and practiced, then I believe that I have the right to respond to your, in my opinion, totally false contention.

In fact, it is not just an opinion, I know that you are plainly WRONG when you say this.
 
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