For Muslims: Ezra...the Son of God?

[friendship]

I’m looking for christians’ answer yet. But 'm going to sleep know. It is 2:00 AM in Iran! Goodnight

 

[dzheremi]

Best action, when you have nothing for reply.

Certainly better than the nonsense some spew here with words instead of smilies, no?

Do they not have glass houses in Iran?

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

That cult of jews who lived in Yasreb. They emphasis that Ezra was son of God. They ever had a debate with prophet Muhammad about him. About these hadithes you qoute, these hadithes quote from jews and not from prophet Muhammad. hadith books contain some wrong hadithes and even have some wrong quotes from prophet Muhammad. I don’t know the worship for Ezra or not but what impotant for muslims, is the Quran and Quran doesn’t say that worship him.

First, I think you need to read my post a bit closer. The hadith sources which I cited are talking about the final judgment, and why Jews are going to be punished (I clarified this in my post). So yes, they are quoting from Mohammad himself. Mohammad is saying what the Jews will say on the final judgment, and he says that they, the Jews (not the Jews of Yasreb or the Jews of certain Medina tribes), will be condemned because they profess to have worshiped Ezra as a Son of God.

Second, if you are going to fall back on the “some hadith aren’t trustworthy” argument, as so often happens when an embarrassing hadith pops up, I would ask that you please present to us why these specific hadith sources are not trustworthy. Especially since I quoted three sahih (“authentic”) hadith sources, two from Sahih Bukhari (the most trusted hadith sources by Muslim scholars) and Sahih Muslim (also trusted second only to Bukhari’s ahadith). I’m afraid that, as it stands, simply saying, “Oh, those are hadith” is a straw man.

I might add that a problem with your argumentation is that it is a bit self-refuting. You dismiss hadith sources and argue, “The Quran doesn’t say Ezra was worshiped,” yet you then go on to state that it was only the Jews of Yasreb who held this believe - something which is not in the Quran. The Quran does not say “The Jews of Yasreb say Ezra is the Son of God,” but rather “The Jews say Ezra is the Son of God.” There is no clarification there. Only in some hadith sources is this belief sourced to individual tribes. Therefore, you dismiss hadith sources while at the same time drawing your conclusion from them.

 

[jakasaki]

First, I think you need to read my post a bit closer. The hadith sources which I cited are talking about the final judgment, and why Jews are going to be punished (I clarified this in my post). So yes, they are quoting from Mohammad himself. Mohammad is saying what the Jews will say on the final judgment, and he says that they, the Jews (not the Jews of Yasreb or the Jews of certain Medina tribes), will be condemned because they profess to have worshiped Ezra as a Son of God.

Second, if you are going to fall back on the “some hadith aren’t trustworthy” argument, as so often happens when an embarrassing hadith pops up, I would ask that you please present to us why these specific hadith sources are not trustworthy. Especially since I quoted three sahih (“authentic”) hadith sources, two from Sahih Bukhari (the most trusted hadith sources by Muslim scholars) and Sahih Muslim (also trusted second only to Bukhari’s ahadith). I’m afraid that, as it stands, simply saying, “Oh, those are hadith” is a straw man.

I might add that a problem with your argumentation is that it is a bit self-refuting. You dismiss hadith sources and argue, “The Quran doesn’t say Ezra was worshiped,” yet you then go on to state that it was only the Jews of Yasreb who held this believe - something which is not in the Quran. The Quran does not say “The Jews of Yasreb say Ezra is the Son of God,” but rather “The Jews say Ezra is the Son of God.” There is no clarification there. Only in some hadith sources is this belief sourced to individual tribes. Therefore, you dismiss hadith sources while at the same time drawing your conclusion from them.

Do they, muslims, even know who “Ezra/Uzair” is??

Originally Posted by jakasaki
To the muslim members on CAF ~

Who is Ezra??? / Uzair???

State from your islamic view please.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Do they, muslims, even know who “Ezra/Uzair” is??

Most Muslims and Muslim apologists identify Ezra as the prophet Ezra, who has a book in the Bible named after him and about his life.

 

[Jay53]

I also thought there was a comparison in that verse as in the Jews worship Ezra as the Son of God in the same way Christians worship Jesus as the Son of God (paraphrase)?

Or is this supposed to be two different thoughts in the same sentence similar to how Allah asks Jesus if he told people to worship Himself and Mary as gods beside Allah, but that is supposedly a reference to idolatry, not a misinterpretation of the Trinity - (even though Christians do worship Jesus, but do not (and have never) worshipped Mary), but somehow Christians’ regard for both gets lumped into the same catergory?

 

[friendship]

Certainly better than the nonsense some spew here with words instead of smilies, no?

Do they not have glass houses in Iran?

Absolutly it is your problem. members such as you or jakasaki can’t understand logical discussions and so always start befool others. It’ll be so good if you be quite and let others who can understand logial discossions such as Byzantine wolf, JharekCarnel, prodigal son1, etc talk to me.

 

[friendship]

First, I think you need to read my post a bit closer. The hadith sources which I cited are talking about the final judgment, and why Jews are going to be punished (I clarified this in my post). So yes, they are quoting from Mohammad himself. Mohammad is saying what the Jews will say on the final judgment, and he says that they, the Jews (not the Jews of Yasreb or the Jews of certain Medina tribes), will be condemned because they profess to have worshiped Ezra as a Son of God.

Hi.

First if realy prophet Muhammad said so, therefor I as a muslim accept his claim, cause he is prphet of god and never lied. after that we must talk about his prophethood. If you say no jewish cult has such believe, I’ll say may that cult be annihilated in several centeries after that. As we know Ebionits was existed but there are no Ebionit one exist today!

Second Moslem, Bukhary, Nesayi didn’t live in life period of Prophet Muhammad, So they didn’t hear any thing from him by their ears. They lived more than 1 centery after him. So what they quote from him is not certain. if they said who quote them this hadith and who said for that one, it will better if not the hadith is a rumor whitch author heared and got it in his book. If we know who was the ones who bring hadith to author, we must search in rajal books and see that are all of them trustworthy and if yes, then we can accept that the hadith may be true. But only if many trustworthy ones quote that hadith, we can certainly say that hadith is true.

Third about reason of panishing the jews it was not cause of this believe, If it was so muslims must panished Christians to, but they didn’t do so. Jews panished cause their abjuration and trying to kill the prophet and helping pagans to attack to muslims in Ahzab war.

fourth I am shiah and these are sunni refrences of hadith, What about shiee refrences? Do they say jews worship for Ezra?

 

[friendship]

Second, if you are going to fall back on the “some hadith aren’t trustworthy” argument, as so often happens when an embarrassing hadith pops up, I would ask that you please present to us why these specific hadith sources are not trustworthy. Especially since I quoted three sahih (“authentic”) hadith sources, two from Sahih Bukhari (the most trusted hadith sources by Muslim scholars) and Sahih Muslim (also trusted second only to Bukhari’s ahadith). I’m afraid that, as it stands, simply saying, “Oh, those are hadith” is a straw man.

I might add that a problem with your argumentation is that it is a bit self-refuting. You dismiss hadith sources and argue, “The Quran doesn’t say Ezra was worshiped,” yet you then go on to state that it was only the Jews of Yasreb who held this believe - something which is not in the Quran. The Quran does not say “The Jews of Yasreb say Ezra is the Son of God,” but rather “The Jews say Ezra is the Son of God.” There is no clarification there. Only in some hadith sources is this belief sourced to individual tribes. Therefore, you dismiss hadith sources while at the same time drawing your conclusion from them.

First about the hadith sources if a hadith came in several books it doesn’t mean that the hadith is true and You must confirm that the hadith is trustworthy

Second Quran didn’t took mistake. Quran said that they said he is son of god and on the base of bible all jews are God’s children(Psalm 82:6) so Ezra must be his son too in jewish beliefs.

 

[friendship]

Most Muslims and Muslim apologists identify Ezra as the prophet Ezra, who has a book in the Bible named after him and about his life.

We have some stoy books about prophets whitch called “ghesasol anbia” but stories in them is hadith storied must be case studied.

 

[Nine_Two]

Sigh, yet another muslim who refuses to engage in a serious discussion.

 

[friendship]

I also thought there was a comparison in that verse as in the Jews worship Ezra as the Son of God in the same way Christians worship Jesus as the Son of God (paraphrase)?

Or is this supposed to be two different thoughts in the same sentence similar to how Allah asks Jesus if he told people to worship Himself and Mary as gods beside Allah, but that is supposedly a reference to idolatry, not a misinterpretation of the Trinity - (even though Christians do worship Jesus, but do not (and have never) worshipped Mary), but somehow Christians’ regard for both gets lumped into the same catergory?

It is just a conjecture. You van’t claim that Quran means that without confirm it. Quran just talks about what thewy said. It is like some one says"Muslims love Jesus like Christians" and you claim that “Muslims think Jesus and God are one”

 

[friendship]

Sigh, yet another muslim who refuses to engage in a serious discussion.

I siad my reasons, answer them if you can.

 

[Nine_Two]

I siad my reasons, answer them if you can.

Your basic axiom is flawed. As long as you hold to the belief that the koran is above logic, there is no point in making an argument. You will always run to “The koran is right” as your final argument, although I find it no more compelling than The Iliad or Beowulf, if not less so. In the end they are all just epic poetry filled with half truths and conjecture.

 

[friendship]

Your basic axiom is flawed. As long as you hold to the belief that the koran is above logic, there is no point in making an argument. You will always run to “The koran is right” as your final argument, although I find it no more compelling than The Iliad or Beowulf, if not less so. In the end they are all just epic poetry filled with half truths and conjecture.

If you have doubt about accurance of Quran, we can talk about that. We have enough reasons for confirm our claims about Quran.

But this threat is on the base of accurancy of Quran. If Quran is not true so it is not (name removed by moderator)ortant what said in it. This threat says: “If Quran is true so why does it said so?” So at first we must assume that Quran is true and after that talk about it. In the same condition when we want flay one of Biblical stories at first we aim that Bible is a true book and after that we’ll ask “If it is true so why does it says such things?”

If you want know muslums’ reasons for trustworthy of Quran, I can give you some links.

 

[Nine_Two]

If you have doubt about accurance of Quran, we can talk about that. We have enough reasons for confirm our claims about Quran.

But this threat is on the base of accurancy of Quran. If Quran is not true so it is not (name removed by moderator)ortant what said in it. This threat says: “If Quran is true so why does it said so?” So at first we must assume that Quran is true and after that talk about it. In the same condition when we want flay one of Biblical stories at first we aim that Bible is a true book and after that we’ll ask “If it is true so why does it says such things?”

If you want know muslums’ reasons for trustworthy of Quran, I can give you some links.

That’s illogical. When an axiom is being tested you can not, for the sake of the test, hold that axiom to be true. Since the subject of this thread is whether or not a verse in the koran is true, you can not use the argument “the koran is true and thus we must look for another option.”

 

[friendship]

That’s illogical. When an axiom is being tested you can not, for the sake of the test, hold that axiom to be true. Since the subject of this thread is whether or not a verse in the koran is true, you can not use the argument “the koran is true and thus we must look for another option.”

Sorry. You don’t understand or don’t want to understand What I say. Let me and Byzantine continue the thread. I as a Muslim have no doubt about Quran as you have no doubt about Bible as a Christian.

What I said is a legical dicussion. If we both accept that Quran is not true so we don’t must talk about what this book says about jews.

As I said I can talk about Quran and it’s trustworthy but not in this thread.

And AS I said What Quran said is true because jews realy think that Ezra was son of god.

 

[seraphime2008]

Let’s remind u the koran’s verse:

The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah’s curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth! [Yusuf Ali]

And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they! [M. Pickthall]

And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away! [M.H. Shakir]

The Jews say: Ezra is the son of God; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of God. That is the utterance of their mouths, imitating the utterances of those who disbelieved before [them]. God assail them! How they are deviated! [Royal Aal al-Bayt Institute Translation]

The Jews say, ’Ezra is the Son of God’; the Christians say, ’The Messiah is the Son of God.’ That is the utterance of their mouths, conforming with the unbelievers before them. God assail them! How they are perverted! [Arthur J. Arberry]

AND THE JEWS say, “Ezra is God’s son,” while the Christians say, “The Christ is God’s son.” Such are the sayings which they utter with their mouths, following in spirit assertions made in earlier times by people who denied the truth! [They deserve the imprecation:] “May God destroy them!” How perverted are their minds! [Muhammad Asad]

Again Allah has charged jews guilty of having said that Ezra was the son of God, remember! The charge was made equal to both Christian and Jews as if equalling orange and apple! the problem also lies in the accusation that this is the eternal pratice of Jews and muslims has the duty to take the representation of Allah to punish them.
And u said that the bible was not guilty of saying that many people were regarded as the son and daughter of God. So how come that this Allah suddenly changed his mind?

friendship:

Third about reason of panishing the jews it was not cause of this believe, If it was so muslims must panished Christians to, but they didn’t do so. Jews panished cause their abjuration and trying to kill the prophet and helping pagans to attack to muslims in Ahzab war.

Please don’t go around the bush if u’re only about to bite the dust with ur argument muslim!

 

[friendship]

Let’s remind u the koran’s verse:

Again Allah has charged jews guilty of having said that Ezra was the son of God, remember! The charge was made equal to both Christian and Jews as if equalling orange and apple! the problem also lies in the accusation that this is the eternal pratice of Jews and muslims has the duty to take the representation of Allah to punish them.
And u said that the bible was not guilty of saying that many people were regarded as the son and daughter of God. So how come that this Allah suddenly changed his mind?

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=6195140&postcount=199

No where in first history books we see that they panishe d cause of their beliefs. If they must panshed cause of their biliefs Christians of Najran must be panished too. These lies made by your orientalists.

Please don’t go around the bush if u’re only about to bite the dust with ur argument muslim!

Be debonair.

 

[jakasaki]

… snip …

**Let me and Byzantine continue the thread. **I as a Muslim have no doubt about Quran as you have no doubt about Bible as a Christian.

This is not a private discussion/debate/conversation between you and Byz Wolf. Any and all member(s) can particiate whether you like it or not.

I don’t belive you posses the knowledge capacity to challenge Byz Wolf in this topic and you’ll probably end up giving him a migrane.