For Muslims: Ezra...the Son of God?

[Byzantine_Wolf]

First if realy prophet Muhammad said so, therefor I as a muslim accept his claim, cause he is prphet of god and never lied.

I’m afraid that’s circular reasoning - ie, we can believe this because Mohammad said so, why because he’s a prophet, how do we know that because he said so, etc. It’s similar to the argument Hamba was making earlier, which was, “I believe the ancient Jews worshiped this because the Quran says so.” If you wish to convince Christians of your position, you are going to have to move beyond that kind of thinking.

If you say no jewish cult has such believe, I’ll say may that cult be annihilated in several centeries after that. As we know Ebionits was existed but there are no Ebionit one exist today!

That was the question I asked earlier in this thread: if the Quran is only speaking of a tiny fraction of Jews (we would have to assume about 1% of all Judaism at that time, if that much), why would Allah waste ink and paper on it? Where are the Ebionite charges? Where are the charges against Christian heresies such as Arianism, Nestorianism, and other branches that we know existed during the time of Mohammad? If it is only speaking of a select group of Jews (which, again, neither the Quran nor hadith sources do) then why so insignificant a group that we know only existed because they opposed Mohammad?

Second Moslem, Bukhary, Nesayi didn’t live in life period of Prophet Muhammad, So they didn’t hear any thing from him by their ears. They lived more than 1 centery after him. So what they quote from him is not certain. if they said who quote them this hadith and who said for that one, it will better if not the hadith is a rumor whitch author heared and got it in his book. If we know who was the ones who bring hadith to author, we must search in rajal books and see that are all of them trustworthy and if yes, then we can accept that the hadith may be true. But only if many trustworthy ones quote that hadith, we can certainly say that hadith is true.

I’m afraid this doesn’t really answer my question, which was how do we know these specific hadith sources are not trustworthy? Remember, these are sahih (trustworthy) ahadith, and at least three were quoted from two different sources, meaning this isn’t just a random narrative.

If you want to educate us that there is a way to know how are hadith is reliable, then fine (though most of us already know that), but then please present to us why you reject these specific ahadith using those standards. If all you’re doing is saying, “Well, that’s hadith,” then it’s a straw man that plays double standards. Remember, you said that it was only the Jews of Yasreb, which is only sourced to the ahadith and not the Quran.

Third about reason of panishing the jews it was not cause of this believe, If it was so muslims must panished Christians to, but they didn’t do so. Jews panished cause their abjuration and trying to kill the prophet and helping pagans to attack to muslims in Ahzab war.

Again, that’s not in the Quran, that’s in the ahadith. You can’t use things only sourced to ahadith and then shrug off all ahadith without some intellectual dishonesty.

However, dealing with this specific passage, it states that the Jews say Ezra is the Son of God, and asks that God punish/destroy/assail them for this, as in this belief. The ahadith I cited have the Jews on the day of judgment saying that they worshiped Ezra as a Son of God, and Allah punishes them for it. Why is Allah punishing the Jews for something that only a small number of them did?

I have also shown earlier in this thread that there is a connection, both in the Quran and in historic Muslim commentary, between S. 9:29 and 9:30 - therefore, Allah is also telling the Muslims to make war against Jews and force them into the jizyah for something that only a small number of them did. Why is this?

fourth I am shiah and these are sunni refrences of hadith, What about shiee refrences? Do they say jews worship for Ezra?

I’ll admit I’m not entirely aware of the shia ahadith. However, if you have any or can present them for us, I welcome it to this discussion.

Second Quran didn’t took mistake. Quran said that they said he is son of god and on the base of bible all jews are God’s children(Psalm 82:6) so Ezra must be his son too in jewish beliefs.

Actually no, when you look at the full context Psalm 82:6 is only talking about the magistrates and administrators in Israel, but that’s neither here nor there.

However, if you’re going to say that Jews believed all of them to be God’s children, then the Quran is incapable of telling the difference between a metaphorical son (which you argue) and a literal son (which the Quran and ahadith argue). Remember, they are condemning the Jews for this belief in Ezra, not all people, and they are comparing it to the Christian belief of Christians and Jesus. I’ll also remind you that many Muslim apologists try to take the argument you just said and use it against Christians as a sign that “son of God” isn’t literal.

Therefore, by your argument here, the Quran is not only comparing Jewish beliefs with something completely unrelated (Christian beliefs), but it is condemning Jews for something most Muslims have no problem with in the first place!

 

[hamba2han]

Muslims have every right to ask → Since Christians claim that they know everything there is to know about the beliefs and practices of ancient Jewish tribes, then why didn’t they know that the Jews of Medina considered Ezra to be the Son of God… or that the Essenes were waiting for not one but two Messiahs to come before the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls?

The answer is just so obvious i.e. Christians (and also Jews for that matter) simply do NOT know everything there is to know about the beliefs and practices of ancient Jewish tribes.

Anyone who says otherwise is either stubborn or just plain dishonest.

 

[spn82756]

Muslims have every right to ask → Since Christians claim that they know everything there is to know about the beliefs and practices of ancient Jewish tribes, then why didn’t they know that the Jews of Medina considered Ezra to be the Son of God… or that the Essenes were waiting for not one but two Messiahs to come before the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls?

The answer is just so obvious i.e. Christians (and also Jews for that matter) simply do NOT know everything there is to know about the beliefs and practices of ancient Jewish tribes.

Anyone who says otherwise is either stubborn or plain dishonest.

But muslims do. Muslims know everything! :harp:

 

[hamba2han]

But muslims do. Muslims know everything! :harp:

Kindly refer to my earlier post:

Only the Almighty would really know the beliefs and practices of ancient Jews and so this verse of the Qur’an may well be referring to a widespread belief of the ancient Jews… or it could not… I just do not know.

And to tell the truth, it is not really a burning issue for me and so I see little point in delving into the problem of ancient Jews who believed that God has a Son.

I mean, there is really NOTHING that Muslims can now do to change their fate in the Hereafter, is there?

However, when it comes to modern-day Christians who say pretty much the same thing, then perhaps Muslims can do our part in trying to save their misguided souls from eternal punishment in the Hell-fire.

I think I win this argument on the point of honesty.

 

[spn82756]

Kindly refer to my earlier post:

I think I win this argument on the point of honesty.

Thanks Hamba…

Ya see…we’re never going to accomplish anything til your last day on earth. At that time you WILL meet Jesus as you judge. Then he will ask you…Hamba…why did you deny me? Suffered and died on the cross for you and you didn’t believe in me. Then you tried to say that those that do believe in me are condemned to eternal fire.

At that point…you better be very concerned.

 

[Nine_Two]

Muslims have every right to ask → Since Christians claim that they know everything there is to know about the beliefs and practices of ancient Jewish tribes, then why didn’t they know that the Jews of Medina considered Ezra to be the Son of God… or that the Essenes were waiting for not one but two Messiahs to come before the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls?

The answer is just so obvious i.e. Christians (and also Jews for that matter) simply do NOT know everything there is to know about the beliefs and practices of ancient Jewish tribes.

Anyone who says otherwise is either stubborn or just plain dishonest.

Of course Christians don’t know everything. That’s as stupid as the idea that Muslims know everything. I find it amusing you mock Christians with claims they have not put forward, but you have not.

Would you kindly share your evidence that the Essenes were waiting on two messiahs? That said even if they are, waiting on two messiahs is considerably different than worshipping a leader.

However you are taking this off topic. What the essenes believe has nothing to do with what Jews in Mecca believed. If you are going to assert they believe something you need to back it up with proof, the sayso of a false prophet does not mean anything to anyone but the followers of that false prophet.

Using your own “proof” that you have presented that the Jews of Medina worshipped Ezra, I have proven that Mohammed was a goat. It seems then that you must either reject this line of argumentation altogether - a wholey sensible option, or accept that both are equally true by virtue of your arguments.

I think I win this argument on the point of honesty.

You are one of, if not the most dishonest poster here. Saying you do not know something after you have stated repeatedly that you do know is not honesty.
Aside from which honesty is more than just telling the truth, it is varifying what you believe as best you can.

As an example there is a protestant poster here who consistently posts stuff from anti-Catholic websites and demands that Catholics defend themselves, when the Catholic posters inevitably show that the site is just making stuff up he defends himself by saying he didn’t write it. This is just as dishonest as what you’re doing by ignoring flaws in the koran. If you are going to make an argument you had best have already varified its truth as best as possible, otherwise you are most certainly being dishonest.

The fact is that in that post you all but admitted the Koran was wrong, and now you’re back to arguing it. That is dishonesty. You can believe yourself to be honest, it doesn’t really matter. The virtues are not based on how you see yourself, and trust me you are the only one who sees yourself that way.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Muslims have every right to ask → Since Christians claim that they know everything there is to know about the beliefs and practices of ancient Jewish tribes, then why didn’t they know that the Jews of Medina considered Ezra to be the Son of God… or that the Essenes were waiting for not one but two Messiahs to come before the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls?

The answer is just so obvious i.e. Christians (and also Jews for that matter) simply do NOT know everything there is to know about the beliefs and practices of ancient Jewish tribes.

Anyone who says otherwise is either stubborn or just plain dishonest.

Hamba, you keep repeating this without addressing what people are saying to you.

As the author of the OP, I am going to ask you only once: stop doing this. Either respond to what people are saying to you, or cease.

 

[friendship]

I’m afraid that’s circular reasoning - ie, we can believe this because Mohammad said so, why because he’s a prophet, how do we know that because he said so, etc. It’s similar to the argument Hamba was making earlier, which was, “I believe the ancient Jews worshiped this because the Quran says so.” If you wish to convince Christians of your position, you are going to have to move beyond that kind of thinking.

First, as I said before If you say no jewish cult has such believe, I’ll say may that cult be annihilated in several centeries after that. As we know Ebionits was existed but there are no Ebionit one exist today!

Second, I explained that many hadithes are false and you must have enough reasons to confirm that the hadith is trustworty. We do so if we want to use hadithes.

That was the question I asked earlier in this thread: if the Quran is only speaking of a tiny fraction of Jews (we would have to assume about 1% of all Judaism at that time, if that much), why would Allah waste ink and paper on it? Where are the Ebionite charges? Where are the charges against Christian heresies such as Arianism, Nestorianism, and other branches that we know existed during the time of Mohammad? If it is only speaking of a select group of Jews (which, again, neither the Quran nor hadith sources do) then why so insignificant a group that we know only existed because they opposed Mohammad?

Quran is not a book about relegions and bilieves. Quran is a directional book. So Quran doesn’t need deny all of wrong believes. But some times Quran reply non-muslims’ claims. this verse is one such verses.

In addition It seems you forget that what Quran says is not blieve whitch a few part of jews think that it is true. What Quran says is “They claim that Ezra is son of God” and all jews and Christians think Ezra was son of god.

I’m afraid this doesn’t really answer my question, which was how do we know these specific hadith sources are not trustworthy? Remember, these are sahih (trustworthy) ahadith, and at least three were quoted from two different sources, meaning this isn’t just a random narrative.

If you want to educate us that there is a way to know how are hadith is reliable, then fine (though most of us already know that), but then please present to us why you reject these specific ahadith using those standards. If all you’re doing is saying, “Well, that’s hadith,” then it’s a straw man that plays double standards. Remember, you said that it was only the Jews of Yasreb, which is only sourced to the ahadith and not the Quran.

Sahih is just these books’ name and it doesn’t mean that every hadithes in it are trustworthy. Authors of hathis books wrote all stories about prophet Muhammad whitch people talked about. Absolutly we can’t agree that what people think about prophet Muhammad 2 or 3 centeries after him is true. Muslim Scientists apportion hadithes to several parts and a few number of them is true.

What Quran says is true about all jews. But hadith when we,Muslims, want to talk eatchother about our history and what peophet Muhammad said, we use hadithes whitch we have eanough reasons to confirm that the hadith is is true. Sience of Hadith is not a little part of Islamic siences and students of this diatporism must study for 4 years or more. We have in Iran, have a university about this sience whitch called “Hadith University”

 

[friendship]

Again, that’s not in the Quran, that’s in the ahadith. You can’t use things only sourced to ahadith and then shrug off all ahadith without some intellectual dishonesty.

However, dealing with this specific passage, it states that the Jews say Ezra is the Son of God, and asks that God punish/destroy/assail them for this, as in this belief. The ahadith I cited have the Jews on the day of judgment saying that they worshiped Ezra as a Son of God, and Allah punishes them for it. Why is Allah punishing the Jews for something that only a small number of them did?

I have also shown earlier in this thread that there is a connection, both in the Quran and in historic Muslim commentary, between S. 9:29 and 9:30 - therefore, Allah is also telling the Muslims to make war against Jews and force them into the jizyah for something that only a small number of them did. Why is this?

All of first history books say that Jews helped pagans of Mecca and asked them to begin Ahzab war and before that Jews of Bani Nazir tied to kill him. and these are the reasons of begining the war. You try to confirm but Quran? But Quran deny your claim, Quran ordered muslims to persons who fight to muslims(Quran2:190) and about Jaziah non-muslims must gave their tax and if they didn’t give that it is so common to got the tax by using force. If a muslim didn’t give his tax goverment got it by using force. Quran never ordered us to fight the people cause of their believes, But your Bible ordred to kill non-jew childern and women(Deuteronomy20:16-17) and ordered to kill the women, childeren and animals of Amalek(1 samuel15:2-3)

And I don’t know why you try make difference between Allah and God. Allah is arabic name of the god and arabic bibiles use “allah” for translation of allah.

I’ll admit I’m not entirely aware of the shia ahadith. However, if you have any or can present them for us, I welcome it to this discussion.

I didn’t any hadith whitch say the worship for Ezra in Omahat of shiah, yet.

Actually no, when you look at the full context Psalm 82:6 is only talking about the magistrates and administrators in Israel, but that’s neither here nor there.

However, if you’re going to say that Jews believed all of them to be God’s children, then the Quran is incapable of telling the difference between a metaphorical son (which you argue) and a literal son (which the Quran and ahadith argue). Remember, they are condemning the Jews for this belief in Ezra, not all people, and they are comparing it to the Christian belief of Christians and Jesus. I’ll also remind you that many Muslim apologists try to take the argument you just said and use it against Christians as a sign that “son of God” isn’t literal.

Therefore, by your argument here, the Quran is not only comparing Jewish beliefs with something completely unrelated (Christian beliefs), but it is condemning Jews for something most Muslims have no problem with in the first place!

Quran undertood their believes. In Quran and ahadith never said “they think God had sex by their mothers!!” You say that you are sons and girls of the god and Quran just says that non one is God’s son(or girl)

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

First, as I said before If you say no jewish cult has such believe, I’ll say may that cult be annihilated in several centeries after that.

The question is not whether or not any Jew in the history of Judaism may have believed that Ezra was the Son of God, the question is why do the ahadith and Quran speak of Jews on general terms if it was only Jews on specific terms. For example, I would never say, “The Muslims follow the caliphate,” when I know there are Shia Muslims such as yourself who follow the imamate and that tradition. In actuality the Muslims (the Sunni) are specific, but the Muslims I am talking about are general. If that helps clarify things.

Second, I explained that many hadithes are false and you must have enough reasons to confirm that the hadith is trustworty. We do so if we want to use hadithes.

The issue is, as I said, most of the Christians on this forum (at least the ones who debate Muslims) are aware that there are false ahadith and that there is a certain scholarship behind what makes them sahih or otherwise. However, what I am saying is that if you are going to present this argument in response to the ahadith cited, please provided that scholarly appraisal of the ahadith. In other words, tell me why, basing it on this logic,

Again, to simply say, “Oh that’s hadith, whatever,” is a strawman. It also contradicts every time where you use a hadith source. If you have a good intellectual review of these specific ahadith then fine, please bring it forward. Otherwise, it is unfair to simply dismiss evidence without stating the real reason why.

Quran is not a book about relegions and bilieves. Quran is a directional book. So Quran doesn’t need deny all of wrong believes. But some times Quran reply non-muslims’ claims. this verse is one such verses.

Why does Allah choose to spend a revelation on a random event? And why on a belief that omnipotent Allah surely must have known would not be eternal, let alone widespread? If the Quran is a directional book, why did Allah not direct Muslims towards more common beliefs among Judaism than this?

This is what I mean by pointing out how insignificant a belief this is in Judaism. Why would Allah waste time on this, because really it was a waste of time if the only thing this sect did was argue with Mohammad at one point.

In addition It seems you forget that what Quran says is not blieve whitch a few part of jews think that it is true. What Quran says is “They claim that Ezra is son of God” and all jews and Christians think Ezra was son of god.

So - just so I’m not putting words in your mouth - you agree that the Quranic passage S. 9:30 says all Jews believe Ezra is the Son of God?

But Quran deny your claim, Quran ordered muslims to persons who fight to muslims(Quran2:190)

Actually no, refer back to the passage we are talking about:

Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah’s curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth! [S:9:29-30; Yusuf Ali]

There’s no mention of self-defense here. You don’t fight them if they fight you - you fight those who do not “acknowledge the religion of Truth.” It then goes on to the charges against the “People of the Book” whom the Muslims were given permissions to fight. As I showed in my previous posts, even well respected Muslim commentators on the Quran connected these two passages together.

Quran undertood their believes. In Quran and ahadith never said “they think God had sex by their mothers!!”

I think there might have been miscommunication with that post. You made the claim that Ezra was a son of God, as is often used in the Old Testament. My question was why then does the Quran condemn something that most Muslims have no problem with? Because, after all, most Muslims I’ve spoken to believe the phrase “Son of God” to simply be a metaphor and have no problem with it.

 

[friendship]

The question is not whether or not any Jew in the history of Judaism may have believed that Ezra was the Son of God, the question is why do the ahadith and Quran speak of Jews on general terms if it was only Jews on specific terms. For example, I would never say, “The Muslims follow the caliphate,” when I know there are Shia Muslims such as yourself who follow the imamate and that tradition. In actuality the Muslims (the Sunni) are specific, but the Muslims I am talking about are general. If that helps clarify things.

My friend all jews believe that Ezra was son of God and so this verse of Quran is true, and if just some cults had a such belief the verse was true agin. When I say “Christians and Muslims are good friends for eatch other” I don’t mean all of christians and all of muslims are good friends for eatchother.

The issue is, as I said, most of the Christians on this forum (at least the ones who debate Muslims) are aware that there are false ahadith and that there is a certain scholarship behind what makes them sahih or otherwise. However, what I am saying is that if you are going to present this argument in response to the ahadith cited, please provided that scholarly appraisal of the ahadith. In other words, tell me why, basing it on this logic,

Again, to simply say, “Oh that’s hadith, whatever,” is a strawman. It also contradicts every time where you use a hadith source. If you have a good intellectual review of these specific ahadith then fine, please bring it forward. Otherwise, it is unfair to simply dismiss evidence without stating the real reason why.

It’s not my duty to confirm that the hadithes that you used are trustworthy or not. You used this hadith so it is your duty to confirm that hadith is sahih. I explained before how do you can confirm trustworthy of hadithes. If you want I can translate one of hadth analizes done by hadith university.(But my English is not good!)

In addition if some day I try to use a hadith, I’ll comfirm that the hadith is true. Be sure.

Why does Allah choose to spend a revelation on a random event? And why on a belief that omnipotent Allah surely must have known would not be eternal, let alone widespread? If the Quran is a directional book, why did Allah not direct Muslims towards more common beliefs among Judaism than this?

This is what I mean by pointing out how insignificant a belief this is in Judaism. Why would Allah waste time on this, because really it was a waste of time if the only thing this sect did was argue with Mohammad at one point.

My friend, It was not random. They claimed so and Quran answered them. As they asked about Zolqarnein and Quran answered them. Absolutly when they talk about some thing Quran must answer them about them. Quran didn’t need to guide us to debate by Jews and Christians, because it is not it’s subject.

So - just so I’m not putting words in your mouth - you agree that the Quranic passage S. 9:30 says all Jews believe Ezra is the Son of God?

Quran didn’t say all of them.

Actually no, refer back to the passage we are talking about:

Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah’s curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth! [S:9:29-30; Yusuf Ali]

There’s no mention of self-defense here. You don’t fight them if they fight you - you fight those who do not “acknowledge the religion of Truth.” It then goes on to the charges against the “People of the Book” whom the Muslims were given permissions to fight. As I showed in my previous posts, even well respected Muslim commentators on the Quran connected these two passages together.

If you read the verse OK the verse didn’t say fight them cause of their beliefs. The fight is for gettinh the tax. Absolutly if some ones don’t give the tax the goverment can give the tax by force. It was aqual for muslims.

Of course I never said that all of fights in Islam in defence!

Quran ordered to fight them until they give their tax, But Bible ordered to kill some people and their children(Deuteronomy20:16-17) and even their animals(1samuel15:2-3) Bible gave no way for them to continiue their life!

I think there might have been miscommunication with that post. You made the claim that Ezra was a son of God, as is often used in the Old Testament. My question was why then does the Quran condemn something that most Muslims have no problem with? Because, after all, most Muslims I’ve spoken to believe the phrase “Son of God” to simply be a metaphor and have no problem with it.

Nice Muslims! Quran and Islam don’t let these phrases as metaphors too. Please send my message to them: “Salam, Did you even see any verse in Quran whitch says It’s forbidden except it be a metaphor.”

 

[Jay53]

Are you proposing that there is no correlation in this verse between how the Jewish sect viewed Ezra as a son of God and how Christians view Jesus as the Son of God - that the verse makes no comparison between the difference in views?

The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah’s curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth! [Yusuf Ali]

And again, the question is, why is God cursing the Jews for viewing Ezra as a son of God, when this not something viewed as problematic in Islam (being a son of God vs. The Son of God (as Christians view Jesus)?

 

[friendship]

And again, the question is, why is God cursing the Jews for viewing Ezra as a son of God, when this not something viewed as problematic in Islam (being a son of God vs. The Son of God (as Christians view Jesus)?

Who said you that it is not problematic? Your orientalists?

 

[Nine_Two]

Who said you that it is not problematic? Your orientalists?

3,000 years of Jewish tradition and 2,000 years of Christian tradition say it’s not problematic. As do Byzantine Wolf’s Muslim friends as he already mentioned.

Indeed if Mohammed was refering to that verse why did he single out Ezra? Why did he not just accuse them of ancestor worship - something which is very common among Pagans of that age.

 

[dzheremi]

Not to make light of the very real oppression suffered by the Irish at the hands of colonial masters, but this is hilarious. Mopery fits certain Muslims to a T.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

My friend all jews believe that Ezra was son of God and so this verse of Quran is true, and if just some cults had a such belief the verse was true agin.

Wait, you’re presenting simultaneous realities. You’re saying, “Yes, all Jews believed Ezra is the Son of God,” and then, “Oh, only some ‘cults’ believed Ezra was the Son of God.” With all due respect, it seems like you’re arguing, “Um…so like…whichever one is true, let’s go with that one, yeah.” It doesn’t show a serious study on the matter.

If you are going to make the case that Jews believe Ezra is the Son of God in the same context that Christians believe Christ is the Son of God (because that is the only context presented in S. 9:30), then please quote me at least one Jewish source that confirms this. Thus far you have not quoted any Jewish sources, only responded to what the Quran said.

It’s not my duty to confirm that the hadithes that you used are trustworthy or not. You used this hadith so it is your duty to confirm that hadith is sahih. I explained before how do you can confirm trustworthy of hadithes.

Then respond to the ahadith I cited. Again, to simply dismiss ahadith that doesn’t prove your point and say, “Oh, that’s hadith, so I’m going to just throw it out,” but then turn around and say, “Hey, let me explain to you what this verse means by stating what is only known in the ahadith,” is a great sign of intellectual dishonesty.

My friend, It was not random. They claimed so and Quran answered them. As they asked about Zolqarnein and Quran answered them. Absolutly when they talk about some thing Quran must answer them about them. Quran didn’t need to guide us to debate by Jews and Christians, because it is not it’s subject.

Do you understand that when the Quran accuses the Jews and Christians of something and even states they are going to hell for it and asks God to curse them for it, that it must be held accountable for what it says? If it is going to pontificate on the Jews and Christians and especially their beliefs - which you know full well it does - then it must be held to high standards in how it interprets those faiths.

As such, if it claims that the Jews believe Ezra to be the Son of God like Christians believe Christ to be the Son of God, and Mohammad confirms that they worship them, then we have to analyze if what he says is true. As I said earlier, it seems Mohammad was a victim of the logical fallacy known as a hasty generalization, and simply assumed a large majority of Jews worshiped Ezra as the Son of God. As a result, Muslims are forced to find ways to explain questionable passages and beliefs within the Quran.

Quran didn’t say all of them.

The Quran does not specify cults or sects. Neither did Mohammad when he talked of the final judgment, and neither did a large number of respected Muslim Quranic commentaries. They all say the Jews - again, not the Jews of Medina, nor the Jews of a certain tribe, but the Jews. Furthermore, Mohammad said that the Jews on the Last Day will claim they worshiped Ezra, therefore they believe Ezra is in the same context as Christians believe Christ.

If you read the verse OK the verse didn’t say fight them cause of their beliefs.

It extended the cause for fighting to the People of the Book, and why? Because of the beliefs they held. It clearly says “Fight those” who do not believe in Allah and do not “acknowledge the religion of Truth (Islam),” and goes into S. 9:30 about why Muslims should fight Jews and Christians. You mention the jizya - the jizya was a tax on non-Muslims because they were not Muslims. So yes, the issue here is entirely on religious beliefs.

Of course I never said that all of fights in Islam in defence!

I thank you for confirming that. In any case, let’s see what you originally said:

You try to confirm but Quran? But Quran deny your claim, Quran ordered muslims to persons who fight to muslims(Quran2:190)

You’re arguing that the context of the passages under discussion (S. 9:29-30) is self-defense. Now you’re saying it’s not. What is your real argument?

Nice Muslims! Quran and Islam don’t let these phrases as metaphors too. Please send my message to them: “Salam, Did you even see any verse in Quran whitch says It’s forbidden except it be a metaphor.”

I’ll let you do that.

In fact, I might suggest the Muslim members of CAF get together and decide what this verse means, because ever since I started this thread I seem to have received three different schools of thought: 1) it only refers to a small sect of Jews who upheld this belief (which contradicts its use in the Quran and ahadith); 2) all the Jews worshiped Ezra at the time and there’s no proof they didn’t (which is just silly); and 3) all the Jews thought Ezra was the Son of God but it was just a metaphor (which contradicts ahadith sources, the context of the Quranic passage, and seems to show Allah cannot differentiate between worship and veneration). Is this great confusion and plethora of ideas because the Muslim community has fallen away from the true path of Allah, or is it because of a fault in the Quran?

 

[friendship]

Hi Byzantine_Wolf, I am so busy these days and my time is limited, so please let talk about later. I’m replying in 2 another threads whtch I think are more important for replying.

Thank you.

 

[Nine_Two]

What’s more important than proving your holy book isn’t a lie?

 

[friendship]

What’s more important than proving your holy book isn’t a lie?

That two thread I said are about my relegion and holy book:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=411834

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=416875

OK?

In addition I wrote that note for Byzantine_wolf.

 

[Nine_Two]

That two thread I said are about my relegion and holy book:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=411834

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=416875

OK?

In addition I wrote that note for Byzantine_wolf.

And? Most people participate in multiple threads at once. This just seems like an easy way out of the questions BW asked.