? for Muslims: If Allah is not Trinity, then why does the Quran show that when Allah speaks He uses "We" & "Us"?

  • Thread starter Thread starter SingleMomMonica
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
S

SingleMomMonica

Guest
I was just reading Surah(Chapter) 19 called Maryam and immediately noticed that when Allah answers his prayer He uses language indicating He is more than 1 person by using “We” and “Us” when refering to Himself.

How do Muslims reconcile this?
 
Ooo! I know this one! It’s called sometimes the royal-we. In Latin, sometimes a person refers to himself in the first person plural form especially in the case of royalty. We would expect the normal “I”, but “we” was used also in English amongst royalty, e.g. Queen Victoria.

I’m a college student studying Latin, I remember an example of this from Dido’s final speech as she was lying on the funeral pyre made from Aeneas’ stuff in her bedroom chamber, stabbing herself with his Trojan dagger. She asks her self something like :

et os impressa toro ‘moriemur inultae,
sed moriamur’ ait. ‘sic, sic iuuat ire sub umbras. 660
hauriat hunc oculis ignem crudelis ab alto
Dardanus, et nostrae secum ferat omina mortis.’

from Vergil’s Aeneid book 4. It translates roughly : "and pressing her face (middle usage here of impressus), into the couch (here, probably her marriage bed), ‘we will die unavenged, but nevertheless let **us **die’ she said. (Dido says ‘we’ referring to herself). 'thus, thus (possibly she stabs herself twice at this moment), o how it delights me (implied me) to slip away into the shadows. May the cruel Dardanian from the ocean (i.e. Aeneas who begins to set sail for Italia) consume to this fire with his eyes and may he take with him the omens of our death.

So, you can see, in Latin, the first person plural (very rare though) is used where we would expect instead the first person singular.

This also occurs frequently in all the writings promulgated by the Holy Father. Here is an example from the 2nd paragraph in the opening encyclical of Pope Pius XI on the Catholic Priesthood. He opens:

Official English translation: Even in the first months of Our Pontificate, before We had addressed Our solemn word to the whole Catholic world, We hastened to lay stress upon the principles and ideals which ought to guide and inspire the education of future priests. This we did by Our Apostolic Letter Officiorum omnium written on the first of August, 1922, to Our beloved son, the Cardinal Prefect of the sacred Congregation for Seminaries and Universities. And whenever Our pastoral watchfulness prompts Us to consider more in particular the good estate and the needs of the Church, Our attention is directed always, and before all things else, to priests and clergy.

So you can see, this ‘royal we’ maybe a little antiquated nowadays, but Latin is eternal. As for the Koran, maybe in arabic there exists such a thing. You may have to ask a classical arabic scholar, perhaps it maybe that in the original arabic, it is still first person singular, but the english translator chose to keep this ‘we’ form. I only study classical and medieval latin, with some early pre-classical latin mixed in.

Hope this helps, God bless! Please pray for me - I am discerning a vocation to the priesthood.
 
SingleMomMonica said:
I was just reading Surah(Chapter) 19 called Maryam and immediately noticed that when Allah answers his prayer He uses language indicating He is more than 1 person by using “We” and “Us” when refering to Himself.

How do Muslims reconcile this?
Click to expand...
Your answer is in Mark 5 : 1 to 13.

.
 
It’s the royal ‘We’, which is common in Arabic. It has nothing to do with the Trinity, which the Qur’an explicitly rejects.
 
SingleMomMonica said:
I was just reading Surah(Chapter) 19 called Maryam and immediately noticed that when Allah answers his prayer He uses language indicating He is more than 1 person by using “We” and “Us” when refering to Himself.

How do Muslims reconcile this?
Click to expand...
Hello Monica,

I asked this question on another place but was not able to get a correct answer. As some of the other answers say, its a royal We, but i cannot accept it, as only in certain areas its We, but than suddenly it becomes I.

When the people say its Royal We, than it should be so throught, but than again, when a King or a queen uses the word We, they represent the government of the government and hence its WE, but God is the Owner of the Universe. Sole owner, so I would have more weight than WE.

Even I use the word WE when I write official letters for the company, but I cannot use WE for myself.

The muslim we is entirely wrong and hence the quran is wrong.
 
Kantaram88 said:
Hello Monica,

I asked this question on another place but was not able to get a correct answer. As some of the other answers say, its a royal We, but i cannot accept it, as only in certain areas its We, but than suddenly it becomes I.

When the people say its Royal We, than it should be so throught, but than again, when a King or a queen uses the word We, they represent the government of the government and hence its WE, but God is the Owner of the Universe. Sole owner, so I would have more weight than WE.

Even I use the word WE when I write official letters for the company, but I cannot use WE for myself.

The muslim we is entirely wrong and hence the quran is wrong.
Click to expand...
Keep in mind who the quran was inspired by. The Being with the most to gain from humanity’s rejection of Christ.
 
Kantaram88 said:
Hello Monica,

I asked this question on another place but was not able to get a correct answer. As some of the other answers say, its a royal We, but i cannot accept it, as only in certain areas its We, but than suddenly it becomes I.

When the people say its Royal We, than it should be so throught, but than again, when a King or a queen uses the word We, they represent the government of the government and hence its WE, but God is the Owner of the Universe. Sole owner, so I would have more weight than WE.

Even I use the word WE when I write official letters for the company, but I cannot use WE for myself.

The muslim we is entirely wrong and hence the quran is wrong.
Click to expand...
God refers to Himself with ‘We’ in certain places and ‘I’ in other places for poetic reasons. ‘We’ creates an aura of awe and majesty, whereas ‘I’ of intimacy. So for example in Surah Al-Hijr God refers to Himself with ‘We’ throughout, starting with “Never did We destroy a people without a term decreed beforehand” because God is expressing his power, up until 15:49, where God says “Tell My servants that I am The Forgiving, The Merciful” because He’s expressing His closeness to the believers.
 
The trinity in Islam is: Mohammed, the Koran and the black rock. Allah is really Mohammed so you can interchange Mohammed and Allah whenever you want.
 
Kantaram88 said:
Hello Monica,

I asked this question on another place but was not able to get a correct answer. As some of the other answers say, its a royal We, but i cannot accept it, as only in certain areas its We, but than suddenly it becomes I.

When the people say its Royal We, than it should be so throught, but than again, when a King or a queen uses the word We, they represent the government of the government and hence its WE, but God is the Owner of the Universe. Sole owner, so I would have more weight than WE.

Even I use the word WE when I write official letters for the company, but I cannot use WE for myself.

The muslim we is entirely wrong and hence the quran is wrong.
Click to expand...
I agree with you that Allah could not have been meaning a Royal We/Us when using that term because when a King/Queen have used it, it’s because they are representing not only themselves personally, but the entire Kingdom…same thing, when th Pope uses it, he is not just representing himself, but the entire Catholic Church…

But if Allah does mean to use a Royal We/Us, who else, besides himself, is he speaking for?
 
staffsgt7 said:
The trinity in Islam is: Mohammed, the Koran and the black rock. Allah is really Mohammed so you can interchange Mohammed and Allah whenever you want.
Click to expand...
This is not what Muslims would say. And it may even be taken as disrespectful. Please be mindful and respectful when posting.
 
SingleMomMonica said:
I agree with you that Allah could not have been meaning a Royal We/Us when using that term because when a King/Queen have used it, it’s because they are representing not only themselves personally, but the entire Kingdom…same thing, when th Pope uses it, he is not just representing himself, but the entire Catholic Church…

But if Allah does mean to use a Royal We/Us, who else, besides himself, is he speaking for?
Click to expand...
He’s not speaking for anyone. The plural form in Arabic denotes majesty/high respect, it doesn’t mean you’re speaking for anyone other than yourself. It’s really quite simple.
 
The Meaning of The Pronoun “We” As Used in The Qur’aan
… by Yahya Adel Ibrahim

It is a feature of literary style in Arabic that a person may refer to himself by the pronoun nahnu (we) for respect or glorification. He may also use the word ana (I), indicating one person, or the third person huwa (he). All three styles are used in the Qur’an, where Allaah addresses the Arabs in their own tongue. ( Fataawa al-Lajnah al-Daa’imah, 4/143).

“Allaah, may He be glorified and exalted, sometimes refers to Himself in the singular, by name or by use of a pronoun, and sometimes by use of the plural, as in the phrase (interpretation of the meaning):'Verily, We have given you a manifest victory" [al-Fath 48:1], and other similar phrases. But Allaah never refers to Himself by use of the dual, because the plural refers to the respect that He deserves, and may refer to His names and attributes, whereas the dual refers to a specific number (and nothing else), and He is far above that.”

( Al-'Aqeedah al-Tadmuriyyah by Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah, p. 75).

These words, innaa (“Verily We”) and nahnu (“We”), and other forms of the plural, may be used by one person speaking on behalf of a group, or they may be used by one person for purposes of respect or glorification, as is done by some monarchs when they issue statements or decrees in which they say " We have decided…" etc. [This is known in English as “The Royal We” – Translator]. In such cases, only one person is speaking but the plural is used for respect. The One Who is more deserving of respect than any other is Allaah, may He be glorified and exalted, so when He says in the Qur’an innaa (“Verily We”) and nahnu (“We”), it is for respect and glorification, not to indicate plurality of numbers. If an aayah of this type is causing confusion, it is essential to refer to the clear, unambiguous aayaat for clarification, and if a Christian, for example, insists on taking ayaat such as “Verily, We: it is We Who have sent down the Dhikr (i.e., the Qur’an)” [al-Hijr 15:9 – interpretation of the meaning] as proof of divine plurality, we may refute this claim by quoting such clear and unambiguous aayaat as (interpretation of the meanings):

"And your god is One God, there is none who has the right to be worshipped but He, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful" [al-Baqarah 2:163]

and

"Say: He is Allaah, the One" [al-Ikhlaas 112:1]

and other aayaat which can only be interpreted in one way. Thus confusion will be dispelled for the one who is seeking the truth. Every time Allaah uses the plural to refer to Himself, it is based on the respect and honour that He deserves, and on the great number of His names and attributes, and on the great number of His troops and angels.

(Al-'Aqeedah al-Tadmuriyyah by Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah, p. 109).
 
spn82756 said:
Oh it does :). It is a reference to legion. That is the “us”. 🙂
Click to expand...
If you are trying to infer that Allah, the God of Muslims, is the devil or demons, then you are Not being “loyal to the Holy See”. That is against the teaching of Rome & the Catholic Church’s teachings.

You would do well to read the Catchism of the Catholic Church paragraph 841 which states that the Allah of Muslims is the Creator and that Muslims adore/worship the same One God as Catholics.
 
hamba2han said:
The Meaning of The Pronoun “We” As Used in The Qur’aan
… by Yahya Adel Ibrahim

It is a feature of literary style in Arabic that a person may refer to himself by the pronoun nahnu (we) for respect or glorification. He may also use the word ana (I), indicating one person, or the third person huwa (he). All three styles are used in the Qur’an, where Allaah addresses the Arabs in their own tongue. ( Fataawa al-Lajnah al-Daa’imah, 4/143).

“Allaah, may He be glorified and exalted, sometimes refers to Himself in the singular, by name or by use of a pronoun, and sometimes by use of the plural, as in the phrase (interpretation of the meaning):'Verily, We have given you a manifest victory" [al-Fath 48:1], and other similar phrases. But Allaah never refers to Himself by use of the dual, because the plural refers to the respect that He deserves, and may refer to His names and attributes, whereas the dual refers to a specific number (and nothing else), and He is far above that.”

( Al-'Aqeedah al-Tadmuriyyah by Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah, p. 75).

These words, innaa (“Verily We”) and nahnu (“We”), and other forms of the plural, may be used by one person speaking on behalf of a group, or they may be used by one person for purposes of respect or glorification, as is done by some monarchs when they issue statements or decrees in which they say " We have decided…" etc. [This is known in English as “The Royal We” – Translator]. In such cases, only one person is speaking but the plural is used for respect. The One Who is more deserving of respect than any other is Allaah, may He be glorified and exalted, so when He says in the Qur’an innaa (“Verily We”) and nahnu (“We”), it is for respect and glorification, not to indicate plurality of numbers. If an aayah of this type is causing confusion, it is essential to refer to the clear, unambiguous aayaat for clarification, and if a Christian, for example, insists on taking ayaat such as “Verily, We: it is We Who have sent down the Dhikr (i.e., the Qur’an)” [al-Hijr 15:9 – interpretation of the meaning] as proof of divine plurality, we may refute this claim by quoting such clear and unambiguous aayaat as (interpretation of the meanings):

"And your god is One God, there is none who has the right to be worshipped but He, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful" [al-Baqarah 2:163]

and

"Say: He is Allaah, the One" [al-Ikhlaas 112:1]

and other aayaat which can only be interpreted in one way. Thus confusion will be dispelled for the one who is seeking the truth. Every time Allaah uses the plural to refer to Himself, it is based on the respect and honour that He deserves, and on the great number of His names and attributes, and on the great number of His troops and angels.

(Al-'Aqeedah al-Tadmuriyyah by Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah, p. 109).
Click to expand...
That would be the Muslim answer. Okay. Thank you.
 
SingleMomMonica said:
This is not what Muslims would say. And it may even be taken as disrespectful. Please be mindful and respectful when posting.
Click to expand...
If I went with what Muslims said they would be having me say their shahada and that Mohammed was a really good man and that Islam sowed roses instead of bloody Jihad throughout the ages.

Mohammed is Allah. When Mohammed couldn’t get enough people to convert to his new religion and when he migrated to Medina he found a new power and found that power got him what he wanted. The message of the Koran changed as did Allah.

The one thing that never changed was Mohammed’s Allah allowing Mohammed to have his sexual perversions. What did change was how to treat non-Muslims and how to behave. And by that I mean Mohammed said that anything that advanced Islam was ok, and anything that inhibited it was not ok.

Being disrespectful in Islam means that NO non-Muslim should ever discuss the Koran, Mohammed and Islam because it is haram. Not even Muslims are supposed to question it. In Sharia laws if non-Muslims even do this they are to be punished or killed.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top