For Muslims: Mohammad and the Trinity

[planten]

After correction, please see my post again below.

fms, Thanks. I will try to follow your advice and I may benefit if any of you benefitted from those readings.

At present, I am asking some of the Catholics here about their prophet. I would like BW and some others, please tell who is their prophet?? It is not a difficult question. Let all respond carefully. Thanks

In my post I had by mistake, typed JW instead of B W. B W is aleady running away and avoiding to answer anything. This is a simple question and it would give some clue to Trinity too. I see that Trinity is more important to catholics than any prophet of God. They are divided on the subject of prophet. That is why nobody is replying.

There cannot be a religion without a prophet. Let us see !

 

[fms]

Planten,

Let’s not hijack BW’s thread even though all things in the end are connected/interconnected.

Our prophet: we say God himself came; better God himself revealed that he came.

But again, a prophet is one who is sent.

In the OT, God says he will send God.

So how can God send himself? (No one sends themselves).

Makes sense now that he has revealed he is a Trinity.

And yes of course the Trinity is higher than any other prophet. It is from God who is Trinity that all prophethood flow.

Prophethood is another thread that I hope I or another will start.

By the way, religion is something that is natural to man. Man is by nature religious. Therefore I would think one would have a religion without there necessarily being a prophet that started it.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

(Part 1/3)

One honest question should be: was there, at the time of Mohammad, a question of what the Trinity was? Would he have a right to misunderstand the Trinity? Was true understanding of the Trinity only a recent thing, or something Christians had to develop in the face of Islamic attacks? Such problems seem possible, except when we review the history of orthodox Christian thought from the time of Islam down.

Couple thoughts…
Scripture in 1 corinthians 2:14
The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Early Christian history…

Dionysius of Rome
The third century Roman bishop Dionysius shows how scripture sufficiently can prove Trinitarian doctrines. He refers to numerous Trinitarian doctrines, and he says that they’re taught in scripture. He refers to how scripture “demands” Trinitarian doctrine. He refers to how “any one” can see a doctrine like the deity of Christ in scripture, and he refers to people who reject the deity of Christ being “openly convicted”:

He says…

“For these indeed rightly know that the Trinity is declared in the divine Scripture, but that the doctrine that there are three gods is neither taught in the Old nor in the New Testament…
And if Christ is the Word, the Wisdom, and the Power,-for the divine writings tell us that Christ is these, as ye yourselves know,-assuredly these are powers of God…
But why should I discourse at greater length to you about these matters, since ye are men filled with the Spirit, and especially understanding what absurd results follow from the opinion which asserts that the Son was made? The leaders of this view seem to me to have given very little heed to these things, and for that reason to have strayed absolutely, by explaining the passage otherwise than as the divine and prophetic Scripture demands…
Finally, any one may read in many parts of the divine utterances that the Son is said to have been begotten, but never that He was made. From which considerations, they who dare to say that His divine and inexplicable generation was a creation, are openly convicted of thinking that which is false concerning the generation of the Lord.” (Against the Sabellians, 1-2)

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Hypolytus’ 2nd-3rd century work.

In the process of refuting anti-Trinitarian heresies, take note he also advocates sola scriptura and explained that scripture itself is sufficient to refute these heresies, so it was plain to understand…For those who had the Holy Spirit.

“Some others are secretly introducing another doctrine, who have become disciples of one Noetus, who was a native of Smyrna, and lived not very long ago. This person was greatly puffed up and inflated with pride, being inspired by the conceit of a strange spirit. He alleged that Christ was the Father Himself, and that the Father Himself was born, and suffered, and died…
But the case stands not thus; for the Scriptures do not set forth the matter in this manner…
the Scriptures themselves confute their senselessness, and attest the truth…
The Scriptures speak what is right; but Noetus is of a different mind from them. Yet, though Noetus does not understand the truth, the Scriptures are not at once to be repudiated…
The proper way, therefore, to deal with the question is first of all to refute the interpretation put upon these passages [of scripture] by these men, and then to explain their real meaning…
For whenever they wish to attempt anything underhand, they mutilate the Scriptures. But let him quote the passage as a whole, and he will discover the reason kept in view in writing it…
if they choose to maintain that their dogma is ratified by this passage [of scripture], as if He owned Himself to be the Father, let them know that it is decidedly against them, and that they are confuted by this very word…
Many other passages [of scripture], or rather all of them, attest the truth. A man, therefore, even though he will it not, is compelled to acknowledge God the Father Almighty, and Christ Jesus the Son of God, who, being God, became man, to whom also the Father made all things subject, Himself excepted, and the Holy Spirit; and that these, therefore, are three. But if he desires to learn how it is shown still that there is one God, let him know that His power is one…
What, then, will this Noetus, who knows nothing of the truth, dare to say to these things? And now, as Noetus has been confuted, let us turn to the exhibition of the truth itself, that we may establish the truth, against which all these mighty heresies have arisen without being able to state anything to the purpose. There is, brethren, one God, the knowledge of whom we gain from the Holy Scriptures, and from no other source. For just as a man, if he wishes to be skilled in the wisdom of this world, will find himself unable to get at it in any other way than by mastering the dogmas of philosophers, so all of us who wish to practise piety will be unable to learn its practice from any other quarter than the oracles of God. Whatever things, then, the Holy Scriptures declare, at these let us took; and whatsoever things they teach, these let us learn; and as the Father wills our belief to be, let us believe; and as He wills the Son to be glorified, let us glorify Him; and as He wills the Holy Spirit to be bestowed, let us receive Him. Not according to our own will, nor according to our own mind, nor yet as using violently those things which are given by God, but even as He has chosen to teach them by the Holy Scriptures, so let us discern them.” (Against the Heresy of One Noetus, 1-4, 7-9)

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Continued…

Quran.
Muslim believe it is the direct word of God, in its original form as it was revealed.
Catholics probably deny that it is word of God.

BibleNT.
Muslims believe it was the revealed word of God but is not in original form now.
Catholics believe it is sacred. Only they can tell what is BibleNT.

Hadith.
It is generally the sayings and descriptive deeds of the Prophet Muhammad as reported by some persons. It is not the direct word of God.

BibleNT seems to be some sort of Hadith to me. It is the reports of some persons other than Jesus, about Jesus, about his words and his deeds.

In any discussion, we Muslims cannot go far away from the actual sources because the BibleNT is already proved to be not on a level with Quran. So, it is best to stick to actual words of BibleNT and not to bring the various christian saints into play. Welcome.

Bro,
What do we read in 3:84 AYA?
We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the Prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them (3:84 AYA).

it says “the book” (bible) is revealed by God.

Keep that in mind when you read stuff like John 8:12
when Jesus tells you…

12When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Jesus is Lord of ALL.

Come on, say it just once out loud, my fellow muslims.

Jesus is Lord of ALL.
Jesus is Lord of ALL.
Jesus is Lord of ALL.
Jesus is Lord of ALL.
Jesus is Lord of ALL.

 

[dzheremi]

They want to turn around and claim that the Bible we have today has such significant changes made to it that it carries a substantially different message than what Christians in earlier centuries believed, no matter how many examples we have of early Christian writers from long before Muhammad saying exactly these things that we affirm about our Lord whenever we say the Nicene Creed or experience when partaking of His precious body and blood in communion. It is more Islamic dualism, where they can say that they follow the messages of the Biblical prophets (even “prophet” Jesus) while in reality following the opposite in the message of Muhammad. Islam is a house built on sand.

 

[jakasaki]

After correction, please see my post again below.

fms, Thanks. I will try to follow your advice and I may benefit if any of you benefitted from those readings.

At present, I am asking some of the Catholics here about their prophet. I would like BW and some others, please tell who is their prophet?? It is not a difficult question. Let all respond carefully. Thanks

In my post I had by mistake, typed JW instead of B W. B W is aleady running away and avoiding to answer anything. This is a simple question and it would give some clue to Trinity too. I see that Trinity is more important to catholics than any prophet of God. They are divided on the subject of prophet. That is why nobody is replying.

There cannot be a religion without a prophet. Let us see !

Quote:
Originally Posted by planten

Every nation had a prophet.

Quote: jakasaki

**Heavy claim here that “every nation had a prophet”.

Care to tell us who those prophets where and to what nations did they belong to? **

And why did you dodge my question to your claim that every nation had a prophet?

 

[Nine_Two]

At present, I am asking some of the Catholics here about their prophet. I would like BW and some others, please tell who is their prophet?? It is not a difficult question. Let all respond carefully. Thanks

BW is not a Catholic, He’s an American Greek Orthodox. Of course that makes what you say a very good question. Who is the prophet to the Greeks, who is the prophet to the Americans?

The Pythian sybil was a prophetess, is that who you mean? are the Muslims a continuation on her teachings? Are Muslims the successors to a Pagan rite then? But what about the American nation? Is it Joseph Smith? Because he came after Mohammed and taught significantly different things. Certainly both of them cannot both be prophets. Your arguments are quite a mess.

By the way, interesting argument tactic, accusing others of things you habitually do. Makes you a bit of a hypocrit, doesn’t it?

edit: I notice at the end you changed “nation” to “religion”, St. John the Baptist is the Seal of the Prophets in Orthodox Christianity, which also makes Mohammed a false prophet.

 

[fms]

Planten & Hypatia,

…, and there is nothing new under the sun!

Correct me if I am wrong, there isn’t anywhere in history of a people who invented a God like the Christian God.

This truth has come not from under the sun but for Him who is above the sun and all the suns there are…he created them all…

This truth was also held in tradition before the New Testament was ever compiled. That would go against the charge yes it is in the New Testament but the New Testament has been corrupted.

Hypatia has done her research and she says there is no evidence of the books being corrupted.

Therefore we have Christians saying this doctrine we believe in was revealed by God himself and His Son, God who cannot sin.

When we told you about the power and the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, we were not slavishly repeating cleverly invented myths; no, we had seen his majesty with our own eyes.
He was honoured and glorified by God the Father, when a voice came to him from the transcendent Glory, This is my Son, the Beloved; he enjoys my favour.
We ourselves heard this voice from heaven, when we were with him on the holy mountain.

 

[Nine_Two]

To be honest I do prefer being called “Catholic” (A word that is of no offense, just understood by the majority to be something different) as Planten calls us, to “obscure sect” as Hamba calls us.

 

[jakasaki]

I just feel like posting this… and yes, it has nothing to do with mohamad & the Trinity.

The Nicene Creed Greek Orthodox

I believe in one God, Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages;

Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten, not created, of one essence with the Father
through Whom all things were made.

Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven and was incarnate
of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary and became man.

He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered and was buried;

And He rose on the third day, according to the Scriptures.

He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father;

And He will come again with glory to judge the living and dead. His kingdom shall have no end.

And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Creator of life, Who proceeds from the Father, Who together with the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified, Who spoke through the prophets.

In one, holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. I confess one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.

I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the age to come.

Amen.

goarch.org/chapel/liturgical_texts/creed

**The following is a literal translation of the Greek text of the Constantinopolitan form, the brackets indicating the words altered or added in the Western liturgical form in present use: **

The Nicene Creed Catholic Church

We believe (I believe) in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, and born of the Father before all ages.

(God of God) light of light, true God of true God. Begotten not made, consubstantial to the Father, by whom all things were made.

Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven. And was incarnate of the Holy Ghost and of the Virgin Mary and was made man;

was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, suffered and was buried;

and the third day rose again according to the Scriptures.

And ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of the Father,

and shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead, of whose Kingdom there shall be no end.

And (I believe) in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father (and the Son), who together with the Father and the Son is to be adored and glorified, who spoke by the Prophets.

And one holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

We confess (I confess) one baptism for the remission of sins.

And we look for (I look for) the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come.

Amen."

newadvent.org/cathen/11049a.htm

 

[fms]

For Hypatia

The sh’ma actually suggests plurality in God and is therefore closer to the Christian view of God than your signature.

Jewish Rabbi’s and scholars have struggled with portions of the Hebrew Scriptures, right form the first book Genesis, that seem to suggest plurality in the One God.

On another note, take these three groups: The Jews, the Christians, and the Muslims:

Jews have the Hebrew Scripture.

The Christians have the complete identical Hebrew Scripture (no corruption here) and the New Testament.

The Muslim scripture resembles none of the scriptures the other two have in common…

It is also difficult to have a group of people lie and sustain the lie. Peter, James, and John, were on the mountain when God the Father spoke of Jesus.

Mohammed and his Qur’an has no other corroborating/supporting evidence…

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

I’m amused, looking at some of the posts by other people with quotes, that planten is addressing me. He has to be doing so only to look good before other Muslims. Why do I say this? Because I made it plainly known to him in a thread where him and I were conversing (and openly stated it in other threads) that I was putting him on ignore. He is still on ignore, and he will continue to be on ignore while he practices non sequitors and straw men ad nauseum. I can see in the quotes in other threads that he hasn’t changed his tactics. I will not enter into dialogue with someone who simply refuses to enter into meaningful dialogue in a mature fashion. Quite frankly, I would appreciate it if other people either ignored his attempts to divert the subject or demanded he remain on topic with my OP. Digressing does not help further the subject matter, and neither does entertaining the random, rambling thoughts that he often presents which do nothing except dance around the point like a Mexican stereotype singing La Cucaracha.

And now for something more on topic.

Couple thoughts…
Scripture in 1 corinthians 2:14
The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Early Christian history…

Dionysius of Rome
The third century Roman bishop Dionysius shows how scripture sufficiently can prove Trinitarian doctrines. He refers to numerous Trinitarian doctrines, and he says that they’re taught in scripture. He refers to how scripture “demands” Trinitarian doctrine…

I would agree that scripture teaches the Trinity, as I attempted to discuss with Hypatia. The reason I focused more on Patristics than scripture in my OP was two-fold:

1. 
   *]I was showing a consistent train of thought and teaching from the time of Mohammad, with St. John Damascene, to the time of the apostles, with St. Ignatius. This was to show that there was no excuse for a person to get the Trinity wrong in the 7th century, as it had been talked about and was well understood by that time, and had been a belief that went all the way back to the writing period of Christian scripture. This actually contradicts the Muslim belief that somewhere between Jesus and Mohammad the Christian religion was corrupted. It is interesting to again repeat that Mohammad taught the first two or three generations of Muslims would be faithful to the religion, yet Muslims do not seem to think this happened with Christ’s followers (even though, as I showed earlier, the Quran says only good things about them).
   *]As other people pointed out, if one quotes Christian scripture many Muslims simply fall back on the straw man of, “Oh! Well that’s corrupted!” even though they’ll then have no problem quoting from the same source something that they think proves their point (which is a double standard). It simply leads to circular argumentation and frustrated discussion.

 

[planten]

B W, There is no Trinity. You have failed to name your prophet. Do the catholics not ahve a prophet?? Quite funny.

 

[Nine_Two]

Planten, that’s got to be one of the dumbest things you’ve yet written. I think I shall add you to my ignore list. I haven’t added anyone in a bit.

 

[wwolverine]

After correction, please see my post again below.

fms, Thanks. I will try to follow your advice and I may benefit if any of you benefitted from those readings.

At present, I am asking some of the Catholics here about their prophet. I would like BW and some others, please tell who is their prophet?? It is not a difficult question. Let all respond carefully. Thanks

In my post I had by mistake, typed JW instead of B W. B W is aleady running away and avoiding to answer anything. This is a simple question and it would give some clue to Trinity too. I see that Trinity is more important to catholics than any prophet of God. They are divided on the subject of prophet. That is why nobody is replying.

There cannot be a religion without a prophet. Let us see !

Hey Planten, is it another ploy to take us on a ride?
As a reader of Holy Bible, you know what the NT is all about? Its word of God as told By God amongst us. ie Jesus, Emmanuel.

Anyway to let you know, the last Prophet in the lines of Prophets was John the Baptist, who announced the arrival of Jesus and even Baptized Jesus. Whose head was severed by Herod the King.

Anyway for your information, ( sorry if i have missed some) is the line of Prophets, and Adam was certainly not a prophet as is in Islam, nor do I find any female prophets in Islam as there are in OT. (wonder why)

Enoch (Jude 14)
Noah (Gen. 6:13)
Abraham (Gen. 20:6,7)
Joseph (Gen. 41:16, 38-39)
Moses (Duet. 34:10)
Aaron (Ex. 7:1)
Eleazar (Nu. 26:1)
Balaam (Nu. 23:5)
Joshua (Joshua 4:15 )
Samuel (1 Sam. 9:15 -20)
Saul (1 Sam. 10:6)
Saul’s men (1 Sam. 19:20 )
David (2 Sam. 23:2-3)
Nathan (2 Sam. 7:4-5
Gad (2 Sam. 24:11)
Ahijah (1 Kings 14:5-16)
Elijah (1 Kings 17:1)
Micaiah (1Kings 22:14 )
Elisha (2 Kings 6:8-12)
Jahaziel (2 Chron. 20:14 -17)
Azariah (2 Chron. 15:1-2)
Zechariah (2 Chron. 24:20)
Isaiah (2 Kings 20:4)
Jeremiah (2 Chron. 36:12)
Ezekiel (Ezek. 2:1-5)
Daniel (Daniel 7:15 -17)
Hosea (Hosea 1:1-2)
Joel (Joel 1:1)
Amos (Amos 7:14 -15)
Obadiah (Ob. 1:1)
Jonah (Jonah 1:1)
Micah (Micah 1:1)
Habakkuk (Hab. 1:1)
Haggai (Haggai 1:13 )
Zechariah, the son of Berekiah (Zech. 7:8)
Elizabeth (Luke 1:41 -42)
Zechariah (Luke 1:67)
Simeon (Luke 2:25 -32)
John the Baptist (Luke 3:2)

Amongst woman were,

Exodus 15:20-21: Miriam the prophetess,

Judges 4:4; And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth

2 Kings 22:14; went unto Huldah the prophetess, the wife of Shallum the son of Tikvah, …

Luke 2:36; And there was one Anna, a prophetess,

 

[Holly3278]

Here is a good spiritual warfare prayer to say after you have properly disposed of your Occult items:

		 			Heavenly Father, I love You, I praise You, and I worship You. I thank You for sending your Son Jesus Who won victory over sin and death for my salvation. I thank You for sending Your Holy Spirit Who empowers me, guides me, and leads me into fullness of life. I thank You for Mary, my Heavenly Mother, who intercedes with the holy angels and saints for me.

Lord Jesus Christ, I place myself at the foot of Your cross and ask You to cover me with Your Precious Blood which pours forth from Your Most Sacred Hearth and Your Most Holy Wounds, Cleanse me, my Jesus, in the living water that flows from Your Heart. I ask You to surround me, Lord Jesus, with Your Holy Light.

Heavenly Father, let the healing waters of my baptism now flow back through the maternal and paternal generations to purify my family line of Satan and sin. I come before You, Father, and ask forgiveness for myself, my relatives, and my ancestors, for any calling upon powers that set themselves up in opposition to You or that does not offer true honor to Jesus Christ. In Jesus’ Holy Name, I now reclaim any territory that was handed over to Satan and place it under the Lordship of Jesus Christ.

By the power of Your Holy Spirit, reveal to me, Father, any people I need to forgive, and any areas of unconfessed sin. Reveal aspects of my life that are not pleasing You, Father, ways that have given or could give Satan a foothold in my life. Father I give to You any unforgiveness; I give to You my sins; and, I give to You all ways that Satan has a hold of my life. Thank You, Father for these revelations, thank You, for Your forgiveness and Your love.

Lord Jesus, in Your Holy Name, I bind all evil spirits of the air, water, ground, underground, and netherworld. I further bind, in Jesus’ Name, any and all emissaries of the satanic headquarters and claim the Precious Blood of Jesus on the air, atmosphere, water, ground, and their fruits around us, the underground, and the netherworld below.

Heavenly Father, allow Your Son Jesus to come now with the Holy Spirit, the Blessed Virgin Mary, the holy angels and the saints to protect me from all harm and to keep all evil spirits from taking revenge on me in any way.

(Repeat the following sentence three times; once in honor of the Father, once in honor of the Son, and once in honor of the Holy Spirit.)

In the Holy Name of Jesus, I seal myself, my relatives, this room (place, home, church, car, plane, etc…), and all sources of supply in the Precious Blood of Jesus Christ.

(To break and dissolve all satanic seals, repeat the following paragraph three times in honor of the Holy Trinity because satanic seals are placed three times to blaspheme the Holy Trinity.)

In the Holy Name of Jesus, I break and dissolve any and all curses, hexes, spells, snares, traps, lies, obstacles, deceptions, diversions, spiritual influences, evil wishes, evil desires, hereditary seals, known and unknown, and every dysfunction and disease from any source including my mistakes and sins. In Jesus’ Name, I break and dissolve any and all links and effects of links with: astrologers; bohmos; channelers; charters; clairvoyants; crystal healers; crystals; fortune tellers; mediums; the New Age Movements; occult seers; palm, tea leaf, or tarot card readers; psychics; santeros; satanic cults; spirit guides; witches; witchdoctors; and Voodoo. In Jesus’ Name, I dissolve all effects of participation in séances and divination, Ouija boards, horoscopes, occult games of all sorts, and any form of worship that does not offer true honor to Jesus Christ.

Holy Spirit, please reveal to me through word of knowledge any evil spirits that have attached themselves to me in any way. (Pause and wait for words to come to you, such as: anger, arrogance, bitterness, brutality, confusion, cruelty, deception, envy, fear, hatred, insecurity, jealousy, pride, resentment, or terror. Pray the following for each of the evil spirits revealed)

In the Name of Jesus, I rebuke you spirit of _________________. I command you to go directly to Jesus, without manifestation and without harm to me or anyone, so that He can dispose of you according to His Holy Will. I thank You, Heavenly Father for Your love. I thank You, Holy Spirit for empowering me to be aggressive against Satan and evil spirits. I thank You, Jesus, for setting me free. I thank you, Mary for interceding for me with the holy angels and the saints.
Lord Jesus fill me with charity, compassion, faith, gentleness, hope, humility, joy, kindness, light, love, mercy, modesty, patience, peace, purity, security, serenity, tranquility, trust, truth, understanding, and wisdom. Help me to walk in Your Light and Truth, illuminated by the Holy Spirit so that together We may praise, honor, and glorify Our Father in time and in eternity. For You, Lord Jesus, are, “…the way, the truth, and the life” (John 14:6 NAB), and You “…have come that we might have life and have it more abundantly” (John 10:10 JB)

“God indeed is my savior; I am confident and unafraid. MY strength and courage is the Lord, and he has been my savior” (Isaiah 12:2 JB). Amen. Alleluia. Amen.

 

[fms]

(name removed by moderator)

Personal’s not the same as important. People just think it is.

What does this mean?

 

[fms]

Thank you (name removed by moderator)!