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marlo
Guest
does she have a name? or is she sarai or do you accept hagar as his mother, thank you in advance.
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Alexius
Guest
I know you want Muslims to answer, but I’ll answer if that’s OK. Muslims believe that Ishmael’s mother was Hagar. If Ishmael were a son of Isaac, then Muhammad would not fulfill the prophecy of God raising up a prophet among the brethren of the Israelites. Of course, we as Christians do not believe that is Muhammad…
Prayers and petitions,
Alexius
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marlo
Guest
Sorry moderator wrong post on the forum, kindly move to non catholic section
thanks
marlo
thanks
marlo
I know you want Muslims to answer, but I’ll answer if that’s OK. Muslims believe that Ishmael’s mother was Hagar. If Ishmael were a son of Isaac, then Muhammad would not fulfill the prophecy of God raising up a prophet among the brethren of the Israelites. Of course, we as Christians do not believe that is Muhammad…
Prayers and petitions,
Alexius
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hamba2han
Guest
Don’t Christians and Jews also believe this to be true?
After all, is it not written in the Bible that Ishmael (pbuh) is the son of Hagar?
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Charlie_Zeaiter
Guest
Yes, that is true. Ishmael was the child of Abraham and his servant, Hagar. Abraham and his wife Sarah were childless and they all agreed to this weird arrangement because God promised Abraham that he would have a son who would be a father of a great nation.
Anyway, Ishamel was born and was thought to be the promised son, and he was raised to be a prince. Many years later, finally Abraham and Sarah would have a son, Isaac, who is actually the promised son. What a crushing blow that would have been to Hagar and Ishmael!
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hamba2han
Guest
"And Sarai Abram’s wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife." … Genesis 16:3
Since the Bible clearly states that Hagar was the wife of Abraham (pbuh), then why do Christians and Jews continue to insist that Ishmael (pbuh) was not a legitimate son of Abraham?
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Valke2
Guest
Jews believe Ishmael was a legitimate son of Abraham, as far as I know. However, my JPS translation reads as follows:
“So Sarai, Abrah’s wife, took her maid, Hagar the Egyptian – after Abram had dwelt in the land of Canaan ten years – and gave her to her husband Abram as concubine.”
The custrom of an infertile wife providing her husband with a concubine in order to bear children is well documented in the ancient Near East. The laws of Lipit-Ishtar (19th cent. BCE) deal with the case of a harlot who produces children for the husband of a barren wife; and these children became his righteful heirs. So while Ishmael would have been a legitimate son, it does not necessarily follow that Hagar was accorded the status of wife.
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Greg72
Guest
I don’t know what you mean by legitimate son.
Ishmael was not the son promised to Abraham - Isaac was.
Ishmael was not the son that Abraham was willing to sacrifice in obedience to God’s will - Isaac was.
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inJESUS
Guest
Valke is correct.
Whenever Hagar is adressed in the OT, it is as maidervant, never as a wife, except in the one verse you quoted, where wife is is merely a euphemism for sexual intercourse.
she said to Abram, “The LORD has kept me from having children. Go, sleep with my maidservant; perhaps I can build a family through her.”
So after Abram had been living in Canaan ten years, Sarai his wife took her Egyptian **maidservant Hagar **and gave her to her husband to be his wife. 4He slept with Hagar, and she conceived. When she knew she was pregnant, she began to despise her mistress. 5Then Sarai said to Abram, “You are responsible for the wrong I am suffering. I put **my servant **in your arms, and now that she knows she is pregnant, she despises me. May the LORD judge between you and me.” 6"Your servant is in your hands," Abram said. “Do with her whatever you think best.” Then Sarai mistreated Hagar; so she fled from her.
Notice that even after getting pregnant, Abraham himself called her Sarah’s maidservant.
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inJESUS
Guest
both Jews and Christians believe he was legitimate…“your own son” is in reference to the statue between the son of a wife and son of a maidservant (“used” -so to speak- to give birth to children), as Valke pointed out. God did not promise Abraham to give him a maidservant …this needs no promise. The promise is that the barren wife will give birth to a son.
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hamba2han
Guest
“Concubine” you say??
I did a search of the Bible (KJV) for the word ‘concubine’ and it came out with 37 results.
On the other hand, a search for the word ‘wife’ produced 370 instances where the word is used.
The point here is, since the Bible is specific when it comes to the word ‘concubine’, why does it instead specify that Hagar is the wife of Abraham (pbuh) in ALL of the various Bible versions that I have examined?
"If a man have two wives, one beloved and another hated, and they have born him children, both the beloved and the hated; and if the firstborn son be hers that was hated: Then it shall be, when he maketh his sons to inherit that which he hash, that he may not make the son of the beloved firstborn before the son of the hated, which is indeed the firstborn: But he shall acknowledge the son of the hated for the firstborn, by giving him a double portion of all that he hash: for he is the beginning of the strength; the right of the firstborn is his." … Deuteronomy 21:15-17
Based on this passage, is there a reason at all why God should contradict Himself by favouring Isaac over his brother Ishmael (pbut) when it comes to the covenant?
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inJESUS
Guest
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Jesusisgod
Guest
Humbug, muslims openly claim that the bible is corrupted!
So, how do they know that the name of Ishmael could not have been mispelled??? Maybe her name was Harlot or something?
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inJESUS
Guest
i’ll explain better. There is a promise and a fulfillment of a promise. The promise is to Abraham and his wife as to the son of Hagar, God says:And I will make a nation of the son of the slave woman also, because he is your offspring. (Genesis 21:13).
So the covenant of God is not a matter that follows the law of inheritance for earthly possessions as indicated in the passage you quoted. Rather, it is always given by the sovereign choice of God and not on the basis of position in a family. Abraham had at least six other sons along with Ishmael and Isaac. Abraham’s sons were blessed by God and many of them also became nations along with the Israelites and the Ishmaelites . But from among the sons of Abraham God chose Isaac to inherit the covenant.
Here is another example:
"The LORD said to her (Rebekah, Isaac’s wife), 'Two nations are in your womb, and two peoples from within you will be separated; one people will be stronger than the other, and the older (Esau) will serve the younger (Jacob).’ Gen. 25:23
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planten
Guest
The father (Issac) was doing his duty alright, i.e. giving the blessings to the eldest (Esau) and that was in accord with the verses of Deut.
If a man have two wives, one beloved and another hated, and they have born him children, both the beloved and the hated; and if the firstborn son be hers that was hated: Then it shall be, when he maketh his sons to inherit that which he hash, that he may not make the son of the beloved firstborn before the son of the hated, which is indeed the firstborn: But he shall acknowledge the son of the hated for the firstborn, by giving him a double portion of all that he hash: for he is the beginning of the strength; the right of the firstborn is his." … Deuteronomy 21:15-17
**The father was doing the right thing. It was Rebeka, the mother who twisted and switched the blessings. This proves that the real truth is in the verses of Deut 21:15-17. Otherwise why would Issac call Esau for giving him the blessings.
There are such things in the bible that men and women can cheat God too. How did God allow that??**
If a man have two wives, one beloved and another hated, and they have born him children, both the beloved and the hated; and if the firstborn son be hers that was hated: Then it shall be, when he maketh his sons to inherit that which he hash, that he may not make the son of the beloved firstborn before the son of the hated, which is indeed the firstborn: But he shall acknowledge the son of the hated for the firstborn, by giving him a double portion of all that he hash: for he is the beginning of the strength; the right of the firstborn is his." … Deuteronomy 21:15-17
**The father was doing the right thing. It was Rebeka, the mother who twisted and switched the blessings. This proves that the real truth is in the verses of Deut 21:15-17. Otherwise why would Issac call Esau for giving him the blessings.
There are such things in the bible that men and women can cheat God too. How did God allow that??**
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Valke2
Guest
I don’t see where God is contradicting anything. Genesis makes it quite clear that Hagar is not a wife, but has the status of concubine. If she had the status of wife, Sari would have no say in how to treat Hagar. She clearly does. YOu have to ignore the clear intent of the text to believe Hagar was a wife, with equal status of Sara. And the bible does not call Hagar “wife”. The translation you are using may use that word. That is a different matter.
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Valke2
Guest
Here I am quoting from the NIV version.
1Now Sarai, Abram’s wife, had borne him no children. But she had an Egyptian maidservant named Hagar; 2so she said to Abram, “The LORD has kept me from having children. Go, sleep with my maidservant; perhaps I can build a family through her.” Abram agreed to what Sarai said.
**Clearly, Sarai is Abram’s wife and Hagar is Sarai’s servant. As I stated earlier, It was a middle eastern custom in those times that a wife could give her slave to her husband and the child thus conceived would be counted as the child of the wife (“perhaps I can build a family through her”). **
3So after Abram had been living in Canaan ten years, Sarai his wife took her Egyptian maidservant Hagar and gave her to her husband to be his wife. 4He slept with Hagar, and she conceived. When she knew she was pregnant, she began to despise her mistress. 5Then Sarai said to Abram, “You are responsible for the wrong I am suffering. I put my servant in your arms, and now that she knows she is pregnant, she despises me. May the LORD judge between you and me.” 6"Your servant is in your hands," Abram said. “Do with her whatever you think best.” Then Sarai mistreated Hagar; so she fled from her
**Even after the agreement between Sarai and Abram (v.2), Hagar is still considered her maidservant (v.3). The language is important. It is not Abram who takes Hagar into his tent, but Sarai gives Hagar to Abram. Sarai is in charge. After Abram slept with Hagar and conceived, not only Sarai (v.5) but also Abram still talks about Hagar as Sarai’s servant (v.6), not as his (new) wife. Furthermore, the narrator continues to call Sarai “her mistress” (v.4).
The phrase “to be his wife” in verse 3 is merely a euphemism for sexual intercourse. That is clear from the phrase that immediately follows it as well as from the original request (v.2). The context makes it clear that Hagar remained the slave not of Abraham, but of Sarai.
All throughout Genesis we find Sarai addressed as Abraham’s wife many times (11:29,31; 12:5,17,18,20; 13:1; 16:1,3; 17:15,19; 18:9,10; 20:2,7,11,12,14,18; 23:3,19) by the narrator, by Abraham, or by God himself. Hagar is never called the wife of Abraham, whether by Abraham, or by Sarah, or by God and only once by the narrator in the above discussed verse 16:3.**
answering-islam.org/BibleCom/gen16-3.html
1Now Sarai, Abram’s wife, had borne him no children. But she had an Egyptian maidservant named Hagar; 2so she said to Abram, “The LORD has kept me from having children. Go, sleep with my maidservant; perhaps I can build a family through her.” Abram agreed to what Sarai said.
**Clearly, Sarai is Abram’s wife and Hagar is Sarai’s servant. As I stated earlier, It was a middle eastern custom in those times that a wife could give her slave to her husband and the child thus conceived would be counted as the child of the wife (“perhaps I can build a family through her”). **
3So after Abram had been living in Canaan ten years, Sarai his wife took her Egyptian maidservant Hagar and gave her to her husband to be his wife. 4He slept with Hagar, and she conceived. When she knew she was pregnant, she began to despise her mistress. 5Then Sarai said to Abram, “You are responsible for the wrong I am suffering. I put my servant in your arms, and now that she knows she is pregnant, she despises me. May the LORD judge between you and me.” 6"Your servant is in your hands," Abram said. “Do with her whatever you think best.” Then Sarai mistreated Hagar; so she fled from her
**Even after the agreement between Sarai and Abram (v.2), Hagar is still considered her maidservant (v.3). The language is important. It is not Abram who takes Hagar into his tent, but Sarai gives Hagar to Abram. Sarai is in charge. After Abram slept with Hagar and conceived, not only Sarai (v.5) but also Abram still talks about Hagar as Sarai’s servant (v.6), not as his (new) wife. Furthermore, the narrator continues to call Sarai “her mistress” (v.4).
The phrase “to be his wife” in verse 3 is merely a euphemism for sexual intercourse. That is clear from the phrase that immediately follows it as well as from the original request (v.2). The context makes it clear that Hagar remained the slave not of Abraham, but of Sarai.
All throughout Genesis we find Sarai addressed as Abraham’s wife many times (11:29,31; 12:5,17,18,20; 13:1; 16:1,3; 17:15,19; 18:9,10; 20:2,7,11,12,14,18; 23:3,19) by the narrator, by Abraham, or by God himself. Hagar is never called the wife of Abraham, whether by Abraham, or by Sarah, or by God and only once by the narrator in the above discussed verse 16:3.**
answering-islam.org/BibleCom/gen16-3.html
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Valke2
Guest
Also, later when Hagar is in the desert and speaks with the angel of God, she refers to Sari as “my mistress”. But you don’t have to take Hagar’s word for it. Just look at how Hashem’s angel refers to Hagar: “Hagar, servant of Sarai”.
And what does the Angel tell Hagar to do? “Go back to your mistress and submit to her.”
And what does the Angel tell Hagar to do? “Go back to your mistress and submit to her.”
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Charlie_Zeaiter
Guest
Hi hamba2han,
Abram and Sarai were childless. When God was ready to the give them the promised son, He changed their names to Abraham and Sarah (Gen 17:5,15). There really isn’t any evidence that Hagar was a part of God’s plan. I think your reading too much into bible translations, and not reading enough into the biblical message. Normally, God changes people’s names when He wants them to be a part of His plan. I don’t think Hagar’s name was ever changed.
Abram and Sarai were childless. When God was ready to the give them the promised son, He changed their names to Abraham and Sarah (Gen 17:5,15). There really isn’t any evidence that Hagar was a part of God’s plan. I think your reading too much into bible translations, and not reading enough into the biblical message. Normally, God changes people’s names when He wants them to be a part of His plan. I don’t think Hagar’s name was ever changed.
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Jesusisgod
Guest
Charlie, some people have itching ears and only ear what they want to hear and read what they want to read. Like I already said, muslims openly declare the bible as corrupted, so…couldn’t Hagar’s name have been mispelled? Perhaps its madam harlot or maybe the entire record is wrong??? Ishmael is the son of one of the male servants. Muslims should seriously stop associating themselves with ishmael of hagar in the bible cos these 2 characters are found in a ‘corrupted book’.
From now on, ishmael has no mother…why? cos there’s no link! Unless the muslims want to use corrupted books to establish their faith. Which is nothing new to us of course.
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