for muslims quick question, who is the mother of Ishmael

[hamba2han]

Hi hamba2han,

Abram and Sarai were childless. When God was ready to the give them the promised son, He changed their names to Abraham and Sarah (Gen 17:5,15). There really isn’t any evidence that Hagar was a part of God’s plan. I think your reading too much into bible translations, and not reading enough into the biblical message. Normally, God changes people’s names when He wants them to be a part of His plan. I don’t think Hagar’s name was ever changed.

The name ‘Ishmael’ was also chosen by God Himself:

"And the Angel of the Lord said unto her [Hager]: 'Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael, because the Lord hath heard thy affliction." … Genesis 16:11

Ishmael means “God hears”.

 

[De_Maria]

The name ‘Ishmael’ was also chosen by God Himself:

"And the Angel of the Lord said unto her [Hager]: 'Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael, because the Lord hath heard thy affliction." … Genesis 16:11

Ishmael means “God hears”.

Charlie’s point, which you completely ignored, is that Hagar’s name was not changed. Therefore she is not part of God’s plan:

Genesis 17
5 Neither shall thy name be called any more Abram: but thou shalt be called Abraham: because I have made thee a father of many nations.

Genesis 17
15 God said also to Abraham: Sarai thy wife thou shalt not call Sarai, but Sara.

And if we read your verse further, we find that Ishmael’s part in God’s plan is much the same as Satan’s. He is against all men.

12 He shall be a wild man: his hand will be against all men, and all men’s hands against him: and he shall pitch his tents over against all his brethren. 13 And she called the name of the Lord that spoke unto her: Thou the God who hast seen me. For she said: Verily here have I seen the hinder parts of him that seeth me.

Mohammed and Muslims have certainly lived up to that prophecy.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[inJESUS]

Planten, what is your question exactly?

 

[swariffin]

The father (Issac) was doing his duty alright, i.e. giving the blessings to the eldest (Esau) and that was in accord with the verses of Deut.

If a man have two wives, one beloved and another hated, and they have born him children, both the beloved and the hated; and if the firstborn son be hers that was hated: Then it shall be, when he maketh his sons to inherit that which he hash, that he may not make the son of the beloved firstborn before the son of the hated, which is indeed the firstborn: But he shall acknowledge the son of the hated for the firstborn, by giving him a double portion of all that he hash: for he is the beginning of the strength; the right of the firstborn is his." … Deuteronomy 21:15-17

**The father was doing the right thing. It was Rebeka, the mother who twisted and switched the blessings. This proves that the real truth is in the verses of Deut 21:15-17. Otherwise why would Issac call Esau for giving him the blessings.

There are such things in the bible that men and women can cheat God too. How did God allow that??**

Dear Planten,

That is exactly the problem of human being. We, human, always think in accordance to ourselves. You mentioned that Isaac was dutifully correct to give the blessing of to the eldest, in accordance to many human traditions, especially to the eastern countries including the Chinese. But, it was God’s plan that the decendent of Abraham who will carry the promise of God is through Jacob instead of Esau, eventhough the Jacob was not the eldest. Remember when Jacob gave his blessing to the son’s of Joseph (Gen 48:16-22), Jacob gave his blessing in a cross-hand fashion, in contrast to what Joseph has planned. Remember, what human thinks is not always the same as what God thinks. It is also clear, that among the 12 sons of Jacob, Joseph was the greatest, but yet, Jesus (humanly speaking) is not the decendent of Joseph. So, you cannot justify the bible according to human, but we human must discover what is God’s thinking through the bible. How? By reading it in an open minded way, without a prejudice or prior hyphotesis.

 

[marlo]

the bible said Hagar is the mother of Ishmael and i do believe it since i’m a christian, but you have not answered my question, i believe you are a muslim and i prefer an answer from a muslim.

Let me ask you again, who is the mother of Ishmael?

Don’t Christians and Jews also believe this to be true?

After all, is it not written in the Bible that Ishmael (pbuh) is the son of Hagar?

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

… Muslims should seriously stop associating themselves with ishmael of hagar in the bible cos these 2 characters are found in a ‘corrupted book’…

Most historians and theologians etc would agree that Isaac was the father of the Israelites (Gen 35:10-11) and Ishmael was the father of the Arabs (Gen 25:12-16,18; Ga 4:25). The Arab-Israeli conflict is not a product of modern history, but rather it started 4,000 years ago in Genesis 25:18.

I realise that the Arabs are not exclusively muslim (and vice versa), but I do see the emotional attachment that muslims would have towards Ishmael.

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

The name ‘Ishmael’ was also chosen by God Himself:

"And the Angel of the Lord said unto her [Hager]: 'Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael, because the Lord hath heard thy affliction." … Genesis 16:11

Ishmael means “God hears”.

Yes, I agree. And I believe that “God hears” the cry of Ishmael and Hagar for being dealt such a cruel blow by Sarah (Gen 21:10).

 

[De_Maria]

The father (Issac) was doing his duty alright, i.e. giving the blessings to the eldest (Esau) and that was in accord with the verses of Deut.

If a man have two wives, one beloved and another hated, and they have born him children, both the beloved and the hated; and if the firstborn son be hers that was hated: Then it shall be, when he maketh his sons to inherit that which he hash, that he may not make the son of the beloved firstborn before the son of the hated, which is indeed the firstborn: But he shall acknowledge the son of the hated for the firstborn, by giving him a double portion of all that he hash: for he is the beginning of the strength; the right of the firstborn is his." … Deuteronomy 21:15-17

**The father was doing the right thing. It was Rebeka, the mother who twisted and switched the blessings. This proves that the real truth is in the verses of Deut 21:15-17. Otherwise why would Issac call Esau for giving him the blessings.

There are such things in the bible that men and women can cheat God too. How did God allow that??**

Because it is just.

First, let us see that Jacob did not cheat Esau. Esau sold his birthright for a bowl of stew.

Genesis 25
33 Jacob said: Swear therefore to me. Esau swore to him, and sold his first birthright. 34 And so taking bread and the pottage of lentils, he ate, and drank, and went his way; making little account of having sold his first birthright.

So Rebecca did not cheat Esau nor Isaac. She was God’s instrument to bring about the just results of Esau’s thoughtlessness. Because Isaac was not intent of honoring that exchange.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[hamba2han]

Let me ask you again, who is the mother of Ishmael?

The mother of Prophet Ishmael (pbuh) is Hajar.

I realise that the Arabs are not exclusively muslim (and vice versa), but I do see the emotional attachment that muslims would have towards Ishmael.

Believe it or not, it really would not be a problem for me at all if indeed the son who was to be sacrificed turned out to be Prophet Isaac (pbuh).

However, what Muslims do strongly object to is the notion that God will play favourites, especially when it comes to something which is so crucial to humankind as the covenant.

How is it possible that the Creator can act in such a brazenly unfair manner and still expect to be loved by His creations?

To play favourites when making the covenant is simply not what is expected of a fair-minded God.

 

[planten]

the bible said Hagar is the mother of Ishmael and i do believe it since i’m a christian, but you have not answered my question, i believe you are a muslim and i prefer an answer from a muslim.

Let me ask you again, who is the mother of Ishmael?

**Quran is not a book of geneology. Only bible is full of such things, so and so was the son of so and so. He lived xxx years. Things like that only increase the volume of the book but do not contribute to real spiritual knowledge.

Bible is clear in saying that Ishmael was the son of Abraham and Hagar. If this was wrong then Quran would have stepped in and told the truth. But because it was not wrong so Quran did not discuss that matter.

There was no need to tell who was the mother of Ishmael. I will now go and look for the mother of Issac in Quran. Most likely I will not find it there. Will that mean that Issac was not the son of Sarah?? The sacred books are not for such relations unless very necessary to put the record right. Sacred books are for guidance.

There is no need to increase the volume of the book unduely. Please do not ask again. **

 

[paarsurrey]

There is no need to increase the volume of the book unduely. Please do not ask again.

Hi

I think it is very reasonable.

We Muslims believe in all the Revelatons from the mouth of GodAllahYHWH, whether revealed on Muhammad or before him or after him, that is a firm part of our belief.

[2:1] In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.
[2:2] Alif, Lam, Mim.
[2:3] This is a perfect Book; there is no doubt in it; it is a guidance for the righteous,
[2:4] Who believe in the unseen and observe prayer and spend out of what We have provided for them. **
[2:5] And who believe in that which has been revealed to thee and that which was revealed before thee and they have firm faith in the hereafter.
[2:6] It is they who follow the guidance from their Lord and it is they who shall prosper. **[2:7] Those who have disbelieved - it being alike to them whether thou warn them or warn them not - they will not believe.
[2:8] Allah has set a seal on their hearts and their ears, and over their eyes is a covering; and for them is a grievous chastisement.
www3.alislam.org/showChapter.jsp?ch=2

Thanks

 

[De_Maria]

The mother of Prophet Ishmael (pbuh) is Hajar.

Believe it or not, it really would not be a problem for me at all if indeed the son who was to be sacrificed turned out to be Prophet Isaac (pbuh).

However, what Muslims do strongly object to is the notion that God will play favourites, especially when it comes to something which is so crucial to humankind as the covenant.

How is it possible that the Creator can act in such a brazenly unfair manner and still expect to be loved by His creations?

To play favourites when making the covenant is simply not what is expected of a fair-minded God.

In what sense did God play favorites? Isaac is the legitimate son of Abraham’s wife. Ishamael is the unfortunate result of Sara’s desperation for a child.

However, everything is permitted by God for our good. St. Paul tells us why Ishmael is not our forbear:

Gal 4:21 Tell me, you that desire to be under the law, have you not read the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, and the other by a free woman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman, was born according to the flesh: but he of the free woman, was by promise. 24 Which things are said by an allegory.

And so we who are born of the free woman, Sara, are made free by the promise. And those who were born of Hagar are still in bondage to sin.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[inJESUS]

Believe it or not, it really would not be a problem for me at all if indeed the son who was to be sacrificed turned out to be Prophet Isaac (pbuh).

so why accuse all of humanity of corruption?

However, what Muslims do strongly object to is the notion that God will play favourites, especially when it comes to something which is so crucial to humankind as the covenant.

 

[inJESUS]

Bible is clear in saying that Ishmael was the son of Abraham and Hagar.

Bible is clear in saying that Isaac was to be sacrificed.

If this was wrong then Quran would have stepped in and told the truth.

 

[planten]

.

I admitted it.

so why didnt the Quran step in to prove beyond a doubt that it was Ishmael?

**Quran has given its message without making it a scandal and without humilating the scribes of the bible. The passage from the Quran has been posted here telling all the history of Abraham and his prayers and the good news given to him about the birth of the two sons, Ishmael and Issac. Ishmael was the first born son of Abraham.
**

you will but you will not find the mother of Ishmael, the father of Arabs.

There is no need. Hagar is not mentioned in Quran and Sarah is also not there too. So it is all the same. It is not the intention of Allah to describe human relationships without necessity.

[/QUOTE]

 

[inJESUS]

Planten

.

I admitted it. i know

**Quran has given its message without making it a scandal **why would it be a scandal to correct a corruption ?

and without humilating the scribes of the bible.

but it did when it says Jesus was not scrucified, for example so why would it be any differenr now?

The passage from the Quran has been posted here telling all the history of Abraham and his prayers and the good news given to him about the birth of the two sons, Ishmael and Issac. Ishmael was the first born son of Abraham.

i will not repeat the arguments i put regarding this passage because i repeated them more than twice and got no response…so it’d be futile to repeat the same without getting any response, or even getting the same response. The point is that you’re saying there is corruption and Allah corrects, yet this does not work here but this passage created more chaos than clearing anything.

There is no need. Hagar is not mentioned in Quran and Sarah is also not there too.So it is all the same. It is not the intention of Allah to describe human relationships without necessity.
yes you do find about Abaham and his wife, though not mentioned in name, but you do not read of Abraham and his wife Hagar…the topic is important if really Allah had in mind the corruption of scriptures…

yet you said “It is not the intention of Allah to describe human relationships without necessity”…what is it of necessity to know about Muhammad’s marital priviledges or his wish to marry Zaid’s woman? nothing to do with your spiritual growth yet it is there.

 

[marlo]

why do you need to look at the bible when the quran is sufficient, does it mean that the quran information is incomplete?

**Quran is not a book of geneology. Only bible is full of such things, so and so was the son of so and so. He lived xxx years. Things like that only increase the volume of the book but do not contribute to real spiritual knowledge.

Bible is clear in saying that Ishmael was the son of Abraham and Hagar. If this was wrong then Quran would have stepped in and told the truth. But because it was not wrong so Quran did not discuss that matter.

There was no need to tell who was the mother of Ishmael. I will now go and look for the mother of Issac in Quran. Most likely I will not find it there. Will that mean that Issac was not the son of Sarah?? The sacred books are not for such relations unless very necessary to put the record right. Sacred books are for guidance.

There is no need to increase the volume of the book unduely. Please do not ask again. **

 

[De_Maria]

**Quran has given its message without making it a scandal and without humilating the scribes of the bible. The passage from the Quran has been posted here telling all the history of Abraham and his prayers and the good news given to him about the birth of the two sons, Ishmael and Issac. Ishmael was the first born son of Abraham.[/quoted]

Yet Muslims don’t mind saying the Bible is corrupt? How does that make sense?
**

 

[marlo]

The quran says the bible is not corrupt, yet the muslim claim it is, i believe the muslim has interpreted the quran wrongly,claiming that ishmael was the son to be sacrifice, yet if you analyzed the quran verse, it clears that it was issac not ishmael.

**Quran has given its message without making it a scandal and without humilating the scribes of the bible. The passage from the Quran has been posted here telling all the history of Abraham and his prayers and the good news given to him about the birth of the two sons, Ishmael and Issac. Ishmael was the first born son of Abraham.[/quoted]

Yet Muslims don’t mind saying the Bible is corrupt? How does that make sense?
**

 

[inJESUS]

The quran says the bible is not corrupt, yet the muslim claim it is,

correct.