For my Protestant Bros - a question on Mary and Rosary

[freerf]

Well, I’ve been attending a Catholic Church lately and have been saying Hail mary’s (Hail Mary full of Grace . . .etc.), St. Michael the Arch. (Saint MtheA, defend us in battle. . .etc.) during times where i am struggling with impurity and have found (to my astonishment) some vast improvments. I’ve been a Protestant for years and never had this kind of success. I suppose this may sound like a fake post, but it’s not. you’ll have to take me at my word.

The question is this: what do you make of this victory and it’s realtionship to this type of prayer? I personally don’t know what to make of it.

Catholics, sorry but this question is directed to non-catholics. i think i pretty well know what your opinions will be.

 

[Ashurie]

It is amazing, isn’t?

I have for the past year been wanting to convert to Catholicism - I am Anglican. Recently, I have been praying hard for a new house with fair rent etc…and amazingly enough, it worked.

Also compared to a Anglican church, I feel more at ‘home’ in a Catholic church than the latter.

 

[cooterhein]

Well, I’ve been attending a Catholic Church lately and have been saying Hail mary’s (Hail Mary full of Grace . . .etc.), St. Michael the Arch. (Saint MtheA, defend us in battle. . .etc.) during times where i am struggling with impurity and have found (to my astonishment) some vast improvments. I’ve been a Protestant for years and never had this kind of success. I suppose this may sound like a fake post, but it’s not. you’ll have to take me at my word.

The question is this: what do you make of this victory and it’s realtionship to this type of prayer? I personally don’t know what to make of it.

Catholics, sorry but this question is directed to non-catholics. i think i pretty well know what your opinions will be.

In a lot of ways, this is very similar to something I heard from a friend of mine who grew up in a Charismatic church.

He grew up in that kind of church because of his parents. He had a number of problems with it. Among other things, he didn’t think it was acceptable to speak in tongues. He saw a lot of it at church, and he didn’t believe any of it was legit. He thought people were just psyching themselves out, giving themselves an ecstatic experience, and doing something of themselves that they thought was of God.

In high school, he became a Christian, although he still didn’t like a lot of the things he saw at his parents’ church. Late in high school, though, he did something pretty similar to what you did. He was struggling with impurity, and one day in his room, he was praying about it really hard and started speaking in tongues.

He was on his own. He didn’t even believe it was possible. Prior to this, it made him uncomfortable when he saw other people do it. But at that point, he started doing it. It was accompanied by some kind of powerful religious experience having to do with the nearness of God’s presence. And from that point on, God helped him achieve more victory in that area of his life than he’d ever had before.

My point of view on the Rosary (and some of the other mystical feelings associated with certain Catholic traditions) is similar to my view on speaking in tongues, barking at God, getting slain in the Spirit, etc. I see a lot of the same things going on. I see a tendency to credit God with things that are a product of your own mental state, I see a pattern of ecstatic experiences that aren’t necessarily God-generated or God-honoring, and I see a collection of things that I won’t condemn outright, but I don’t plan on doing any of them. I’d prefer not to, and I take exception to people who tell me- explicitly or otherwise- that I have to.

So what do I make of this victory and its relationship to this type of prayer? About the same thing that I made of my friend’s victory and its relationship to speaking in tongues. It caused me to be more open to the possibility that God can, on occasion, work in a person’s life in that way. I still don’t think Charismatics are speaking in an angelic language, and I still think it’s not God-generated or necessarily God-honoring most of the time. Especially in a public setting. I still have no desire to speak in tongues, and I still take exception when people state or imply that it’s anywhere from mandatory to optional-mandatory.

In your case, it’s very similar. Assuming the story is true, it might cause me to be more open to the possibility that God sometimes does meaningful work in a person’s life in response to these kinds of prayers. I still don’t think the idea of “channeling grace” is an accurate one, I still think most of these prayers are examples of people placing themselves in a semi-meditative state and the kind-of-ecstatic feelings are not rightly attributed to God, and I still think it’s wrong to believe that a certain kind of prayer will guarantee results. Especially if the guarantee is predicated on chanting the same thing a hundred or more times. I still don’t plan on praying the Rosary or any other prayer that involves repeating the same thing that many times, and I still take exception to people who state or imply that these kinds of things are anywhere from mandatory to optional-mandatory.

I guess that’s about where I stand.

 

[Berean2]

most of these prayers are examples of people placing themselves in a semi-meditative state and the kind-of-ecstatic feelings are not rightly attributed to God, and I still think it’s wrong to believe that a certain kind of prayer will guarantee results. Especially if the guarantee is predicated on chanting the same thing a hundred or more times.

Freerf, if you’ve had a victory over sin in that very important dept., that’s super, but the above caution by cooter is consistent with Jesus’ warning, “When you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words.” (Matt. 6:7)

Would you want your friends, parents, siblings or true love to address you with repetitious formulaic speech? I doubt it, because you and they have a relationship. And it’s no different with God: you’re not a prayer machine and He’s not some sort of giant auditory slot machine where the right type and number of incantations will hit you the jackpot.

 

[cooterhein]

Freerf, if you’ve had a victory over sin in that very important dept., that’s super, but the above caution by cooter is consistent with Jesus’ warning, “When you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words.” (Matt. 6:7)

Would you want your friends, parents, siblings or true love to address you with repetitious formulaic speech? I doubt it, because you and they have a relationship. And it’s no different with God: you’re not a prayer machine and He’s not some sort of giant auditory slot machine where the right type and number of incantations will hit you the jackpot.

I partly agree with you on this, but one of the things I ran across in a commentary the other day causes me to disagree in part as well.

In Matthew 6:7, Jesus’ warning has to do with a delineation between “vain repetition” that is associated with the Gentiles and a more acceptable kind of prayer. I looked at lexicons, concordances, and word study sets first, and then I looked at a few of the key commentaries. One of them introduced some historical detail about the nature of prayer among Jews that led up to this point in time. There had already been some minor conflict and disagreement over the inclusion of formulaic prayers- not exactly like the Rosary, of course. Not that many repetitions of the same thing. But formulaic prayers nonetheless. The outcome of this issue was that formulaic prayers were deemed acceptable, although the intent and focus of the person was something to keep an eye on.

Upon closer examination of what passed for an acceptable formulaic prayer among the Jews and what passed for “vain repetition” among the Gentiles, the Catholic prayers look a lot more similar to the Jewish example. I encourage you to look at the appropriate resources on this one- I believe the most useful information that I got came from the NET commentary. If you want, I can look it up again pretty easily in the near future.

There’s still issues having to do with the nature of grace, whether or not Mary can actually hear you, the practice of assigning a certain amount of prayers that will ostensibly cause God to absolve you of sin (like a slot machine), and a tendency to be over-encouraging of the practice, such that people wind up doing it for bad reasons and/or ritualize it into meaninglessness.

That said, I’m against proof-texting in general (particularly when an appropriate amount of work isn’t put in), and I don’t think this prohibition is sufficient to categorically refudiate the Rosary and all other Catholic prayers that use some form of repetition. I happen to think the Rosary’s repetition is excessive to the point of nails-on-the-chalkboard annoying (just a personal opinion, really), and I also happen to think Mary doesn’t know who any of us are and is incapable of hearing us. But I don’t think Jesus’ warning against vain repetition necessarily applies to every person who prays the Rosary, although it certainly can apply to some people in some situations.

 

[Izdaari]

Well, I’ve been attending a Catholic Church lately and have been saying Hail mary’s (Hail Mary full of Grace . . .etc.), St. Michael the Arch. (Saint MtheA, defend us in battle. . .etc.) during times where i am struggling with impurity and have found (to my astonishment) some vast improvments. I’ve been a Protestant for years and never had this kind of success. I suppose this may sound like a fake post, but it’s not. you’ll have to take me at my word.

The question is this: what do you make of this victory and it’s realtionship to this type of prayer? I personally don’t know what to make of it.

Catholics, sorry but this question is directed to non-catholics. i think i pretty well know what your opinions will be.

I don’t have a theological problem with that type of prayer, or with the use of a rosary. However, I might or might not have a problem with specific prayers depending on the content. I don’t accept or reject a particular practice on the basis of it being Catholic or not; what Christian tradition it’s from is relevant, but is only one of many factors.

 

[Publisher]

I see no problem with using other “tried and true traditions” of another faith tradition in spiritual practices.

I have even made rosary’s for some Episcopalian friends and one for a Lutheran friend. I found the pattern on line…33 beads, one for each year of Jesus’ life…three large beads separating each “week” of 11 beads…one of the larger beads has a small circle of beads with a cross hanging upon them to represent Christ. I made myself one…but the “clicking” of the beads to me is distracting…for that reason I use in my private devotions at times a “chokti”

A “chokti”…an Orthodox prayer rope to help me center down in the Silence sometimes. I’ll use the knots and mentally quote a Psalm passage…or a short passage from Paul…or the Gospels to assist me in quieting my mind and getting away from the distractions of daily life that often times “invades” upon my time of meditation and worship by helping me focus.

I have even taken the prayer rope to Meeting and used it a time or two…but in Meeting I find I can join into the Living Silence of Meeting much easier with a group of people than when I am alone.

I have also used candles to assist in meditiation. A stick of my favorite incense and a single candle on the coffee table before me as I “wait upon the Lord” is sometimes useful…especially when I have problems “centering down”. They are tools…just because the “tools” didn’t come with the “tool box” I purchased doesn’t mean I can’t use additional “tools” to achieve the same purpose of helping me enter the Presence.

 

[Erich]

That said, I’m against proof-texting in general (particularly when an appropriate amount of work isn’t put in), and I don’t think this prohibition is sufficient to categorically refudiate the Rosary and all other Catholic prayers that use some form of repetition. I happen to think the Rosary’s repetition is excessive to the point of nails-on-the-chalkboard annoying (just a personal opinion, really), and I also happen to think Mary doesn’t know who any of us are and is incapable of hearing us. But I don’t think Jesus’ warning against vain repetition necessarily applies to every person who prays the Rosary, although it certainly can apply to some people in some situations.

Christ forbade meaningless repetition (Matt. 6:7), but the Bible itself prescribes some prayers that involve repetition. Look at Psalms 136, which is a litany (a prayer with a recurring refrain) meant to be sung in the Jewish Temple. In the psalm the refrain is “His mercy endures forever.” Sometimes in Psalms 136 the refrain starts before a sentence is finished, meaning it is more repetitious than the rosary, though this prayer was written directly under the inspiration of God.

Also look at Revelation 4:8, where the four living creatures repeat, night and day, the prayer “Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God almighty, who was, and who is, and who is to come.” You can’t get more repetitive than that!

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Christ forbade meaningless repetition (Matt. 6:7), but the Bible itself prescribes some prayers that involve repetition. Look at Psalms 136, which is a litany (a prayer with a recurring refrain) meant to be sung in the Jewish Temple. In the psalm the refrain is “His mercy endures forever.” Sometimes in Psalms 136 the refrain starts before a sentence is finished, meaning it is more repetitious than the rosary, though this prayer was written directly under the inspiration of God.

Also look at Revelation 4:8, where the four living creatures repeat, night and day, the prayer “Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God almighty, who was, and who is, and who is to come.” You can’t get more repetitive than that!

Very good points.

Also, we cannot forget that Christ, Himself, prayed repetitiously as told in Matthew 26:44.

Mat 26:44 And leaving them, he went again: and he prayed the third time, saying the selfsame word.

 

[freerf]

In your case, it’s very similar. Assuming the story is true, it might cause me to be more open to the possibility that God sometimes does meaningful work in a person’s life in response to these kinds of prayers. I still don’t think the idea of “channeling grace” is an accurate one, I still think most of these prayers are examples of people placing themselves in a semi-meditative state and the kind-of-ecstatic feelings are not rightly attributed to God, and I still think it’s wrong to believe that a certain kind of prayer will guarantee results. Especially if the guarantee is predicated on chanting the same thing a hundred or more times. I still don’t plan on praying the Rosary or any other prayer that involves repeating the same thing that many times, and I still take exception to people who state or imply that these kinds of things are anywhere from mandatory to optional-mandatory.

I guess that’s about where I stand.

thanks:thumbsup:

 

[freerf]

Freerf, if you’ve had a victory over sin in that very important dept., that’s super, but the above caution by cooter is consistent with Jesus’ warning, “When you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words.” (Matt. 6:7)

Would you want your friends, parents, siblings or true love to address you with repetitious formulaic speech? I doubt it, because you and they have a relationship. And it’s no different with God: you’re not a prayer machine and He’s not some sort of giant auditory slot machine where the right type and number of incantations will hit you the jackpot.

This is the kind of response i am used to at the chruch i was attending. However, I don’t agree with the premis of “would you want your friends, parents. . .and it’s no different with God.” Mainly because: a) I’m not God so using my own feelings as a standard is not appropriate. b) if my child were repeating how they love me, not to get something from me, but to gain a comfort from it, i’d not mind at all c) scripture says, “for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words” and that intent (repetitive prayer in order to be heard) certainly is annoying. . .but this is not what i do. I mainly gain comfort from it and it releaves the lustful emotions and thinking.

Well, on the other hand maybe the St. michael prayer is something like you describe. This is a repetative prayer the Catholic Church gives “indulgences” for. Something I’ve started doing as a way to battle evil.

 

[freerf]

I partly agree with you on this, but one of the things I ran across in a commentary the other day causes me to disagree in part as well.

In Matthew 6:7, Jesus’ warning has to do with a delineation between “vain repetition” that is associated with the Gentiles and a more acceptable kind of prayer. I looked at lexicons, concordances, and word study sets first, and then I looked at a few of the key commentaries. One of them introduced some historical detail about the nature of prayer among Jews that led up to this point in time. There had already been some minor conflict and disagreement over the inclusion of formulaic prayers- not exactly like the Rosary, of course. Not that many repetitions of the same thing. But formulaic prayers nonetheless. The outcome of this issue was that formulaic prayers were deemed acceptable, although the intent and focus of the person was something to keep an eye on.

Upon closer examination of what passed for an acceptable formulaic prayer among the Jews and what passed for “vain repetition” among the Gentiles, the Catholic prayers look a lot more similar to the Jewish example. I encourage you to look at the appropriate resources on this one- I believe the most useful information that I got came from the NET commentary. If you want, I can look it up again pretty easily in the near future.

There’s still issues having to do with the nature of grace, whether or not Mary can actually hear you, the practice of assigning a certain amount of prayers that will ostensibly cause God to absolve you of sin (like a slot machine), and a tendency to be over-encouraging of the practice, such that people wind up doing it for bad reasons and/or ritualize it into meaninglessness.

That said, I’m against proof-texting in general (particularly when an appropriate amount of work isn’t put in), and I don’t think this prohibition is sufficient to categorically refudiate the Rosary and all other Catholic prayers that use some form of repetition. I happen to think the Rosary’s repetition is excessive to the point of nails-on-the-chalkboard annoying (just a personal opinion, really), and I also happen to think Mary doesn’t know who any of us are and is incapable of hearing us. But I don’t think Jesus’ warning against vain repetition necessarily applies to every person who prays the Rosary, although it certainly can apply to some people in some situations.

Reasonable response. Thanks!

 

[jrose90]

I was raised Baptist actually, but when I went through some really rough times a while back, my aunt (who is Catholic) suggested I simply try praying the rosary, and it really did help me. Regardless of what denomination you are, knowing that Mary is praying for you is so comforting that you really can’t help but feel more at ease, and I continue to pray the Rosary today.

 

[Mcklintock82]

Well, I’ve been attending a Catholic Church lately and have been saying Hail mary’s (Hail Mary full of Grace . . .etc.), St. Michael the Arch. (Saint MtheA, defend us in battle. . .etc.) during times where i am struggling with impurity and have found (to my astonishment) some vast improvments. I’ve been a Protestant for years and never had this kind of success. I suppose this may sound like a fake post, but it’s not. you’ll have to take me at my word.

The question is this: what do you make of this victory and it’s realtionship to this type of prayer? I personally don’t know what to make of it.

Catholics, sorry but this question is directed to non-catholics. i think i pretty well know what your opinions will be.

I kept struggling with impure thoughts/actions too, that and life also hasn’t been to good for me the last three years so that’s caused difficulties in itself (almost became an Atheist), and one day I prayed to God to guide me, not to give me money or make it easier but just guide me. Well I haven’t gone to Mass yet ( I grew up southern baptist so I’m trying to make things make sense) but I’ve been praying the Rosary,plus Prayer to St. Michael the Archangel, also a little personal prayer before bed. While doing this I’ve noticed a vast improvement in my ability to resist temptation. I even asked God to help me understand what has happen to me and why am I going/gone though these things and I had a dream that very night… I would ask people at the church I’ve been going to but my dream had a catholic theme so I don’t think a Baptist would want to answer haha.

 

[freerf]

I kept struggling with impure thoughts/actions too, that and life also hasn’t been to good for me the last three years so that’s caused difficulties in itself (almost became an Atheist), and one day I prayed to God to guide me, not to give me money or make it easier but just guide me. Well I haven’t gone to Mass yet ( I grew up southern baptist so I’m trying to make things make sense) but I’ve been praying the Rosary,plus Prayer to St. Michael the Archangel, also a little personal prayer before bed. While doing this I’ve noticed a vast improvement in my ability to resist temptation. I even asked God to help me understand what has happen to me and why am I going/gone though these things and I had a dream that very night… I would ask people at the church I’ve been going to but my dream had a catholic theme so I don’t think a Baptist would want to answer haha.

what was your dream?

 

[Roy5]

I’m of mixed Catholic and Protestant heritage and always have favored amity and recollection between the two traditrions - not union but unity.

As to the question, every religion claims that it has assisted people in their various challenges. I remember a young Black guy who had been in lots of trouble with the law and elsewhere. He became a Black Muslim, and what a change! Never was in trouble with the law again, became a crusader against drugs, etc. I doubt if it has much to do with a specific faith - more to do with the fact that people take a faith seriously and it impacts their lives. I have known various alcoholics and drug addicts who became genuine 'born-again' Christians and then they were able to give up these addictions.

My problem - or maybe the better word is fear - is that I resist superstition within any faith. I have difficulty believing that by praying to one of thousands of saints those saints pull strings that fulfill our prayer requests. This all strikes me as bizarre, even a but 'pagan'.  While I don't claim to understand prayer fully, I doubt if it works like that. To begin with, this idea of going to Mary or Michael or Padre Pio or the new St. Andre who then goes to Jesus - well, quite a bureaucracy. Why not go directly to Christ? Surely he has the omniscience and omnipotence to handle everything.

Somewhere in the New Testament (St. Paul?) we read that faith can give us the victory. There's a hymn with that refrain. I believe it. How often Jesus said: "Thy faith hath made thee whole!" And I don't object to using rosaries or whatever may help. What I do have serious qualms about is embracing superstitions, which is easy to do in this field of spirituality. And I have wondered why the rosary contains so many more 'Hail Marys'  - some of which is not found in scripture (the last part) - compared to the number of times the Lord's Prayer is recited, taught us by Christ himself. 

God bless Catholics, Protestants and people of every creed, color and country.

 

[Mcklintock82]

what was your dream?

Growing up people always told me I’d grow up to be a preacher, so i don’t know if that’s causing me to look too much into this dream…If this seems kinda long I understand if I get some TL;DR lol

The dream started out with me on the front porch of a house (seemed to be an isolated house… out in the country maybe) and there was an old white man (60s-70?) looking at me and he says “Would you take pity on this old Irish sinner?”. At that moment I look down and see that I’m dressed like a catholic priest (black suit with white collar, not sure what you call it) and in my left hand I have a small purple bottle with a black label (about the same size of a 20oz cola) and a small cup in my right hand (like those medicine dosage cups). I then immediately look to my right and a few yards off the porch I see what appears to be a man sitting on a woodpile, near a path leading to a forest, playing a guitar type instrument (more like what you see medieval bards play I don’t know what they’re called). I then think something to the effect of if "I’ll get in trouble " that’s when i notice he appears to be some kind of uniformed man, like a police officer or something to that effect, couldn’t make it out. I look back at the older man in the door and pour the what’s in the bottle into the cup and give it to the man. I then make the sign of the cross and I said something… but I have no idea what I said it sounded like gibberish to me. I then turn and walk away. While walking past the guy on the woodpile we look at each other and nod then I keep walking when just before I enter the forest he goes “You need to watch yourself mister.” I turn my head to the left nod and continue going in to the forest.
The path quickly becomes over grown and I’m having to push my way through the thick mess when I’m suddenly looking into an open area. It’s a hill and past it a treeline (about 1-2 hundred yards past the hill) and just above the treeline I see a steeple of a church (like a typical old style protestant church) but suddenly I look to the right and see my path leading to another church(which is in the open area with me) and it was beautiful! To me it appeared to look like a mix of a Western European Catholic church style and Eastern Orthodox church style (like the style you’d typically see in both these churches combined). I feel a sense of comfort and I start walking toward it… that’s when i wake up.

 

[wmscott]

Well, I’ve been attending a Catholic Church lately and have been saying Hail mary’s (Hail Mary full of Grace . . .etc.), St. Michael the Arch. (Saint MtheA, defend us in battle. . .etc.) during times where i am struggling with impurity and have found (to my astonishment) some vast improvments. I’ve been a Protestant for years and never had this kind of success. I suppose this may sound like a fake post, but it’s not. you’ll have to take me at my word.

The question is this: what do you make of this victory and it’s realtionship to this type of prayer? I personally don’t know what to make of it.

Catholics, sorry but this question is directed to non-catholics. i think i pretty well know what your opinions will be.

IMHO what you are experiencing is the power of prayer. Good for you. Peace.

 

[JustaServant]

I think the problem many Protestants have with ‘repetative’ prayer is they make it an either/or situation, when it is not. Catholics can certainly pray without repitition, and Protestants must overcome a fear that repitition is somehow inferior. Both are sound and Biblical. Singing hymns out of a hymn book is repitition as well.
What repitition does is discipline our prayers so our minds do not wander. Even then, it doesn’t mean it won’t, but over time you will see a change.

 

[freerf]

Growing up people always told me I’d grow up to be a preacher, so i don’t know if that’s causing me to look too much into this dream…If this seems kinda long I understand if I get some TL;DR lol

The dream started out with me on the front porch of a house (seemed to be an isolated house… out in the country maybe) and there was an old white man (60s-70?) looking at me and he says “Would you take pity on this old Irish sinner?”. At that moment I look down and see that I’m dressed like a catholic priest (black suit with white collar, not sure what you call it) and in my left hand I have a small purple bottle with a black label (about the same size of a 20oz cola) and a small cup in my right hand (like those medicine dosage cups). I then immediately look to my right and a few yards off the porch I see what appears to be a man sitting on a woodpile, near a path leading to a forest, playing a guitar type instrument (more like what you see medieval bards play I don’t know what they’re called). I then think something to the effect of if "I’ll get in trouble " that’s when i notice he appears to be some kind of uniformed man, like a police officer or something to that effect, couldn’t make it out. I look back at the older man in the door and pour the what’s in the bottle into the cup and give it to the man. I then make the sign of the cross and I said something… but I have no idea what I said it sounded like gibberish to me. I then turn and walk away. While walking past the guy on the woodpile we look at each other and nod then I keep walking when just before I enter the forest he goes “You need to watch yourself mister.” I turn my head to the left nod and continue going in to the forest.
The path quickly becomes over grown and I’m having to push my way through the thick mess when I’m suddenly looking into an open area. It’s a hill and past it a treeline (about 1-2 hundred yards past the hill) and just above the treeline I see a steeple of a church (like a typical old style protestant church) but suddenly I look to the right and see my path leading to another church(which is in the open area with me) and it was beautiful! To me it appeared to look like a mix of a Western European Catholic church style and Eastern Orthodox church style (like the style you’d typically see in both these churches combined). I feel a sense of comfort and I start walking toward it… that’s when i wake up.

excellent dream. if i may (and i assure you, i’m not qualified) i see that you are a priest in the dream handing out sacrament. the bard is possibly your current prot. friends (was he a friend in the dream? did you sense danger, love friendship, etc?) warning you about your upcoming travels (walking into the woods). In the woods you see two paths, one directly in front of you (i’d say your current path) and one off to the side (what seems the preferred path). The key here it seems to me is who is the bard? Saint or sinner?