For Non-Catholics who believe in the Real Presence...

[Believe_85]

Where does it state in Scripture that the efficacy of the sacraments is dependent upon apostolic succession?

I don’t know…I’m just trying to piece together the logic and theolgy involved. If you don’t have apostolic succession how can you be sure you are practicing the sacraments as Jesus taught them? I can’t go to non-Catholic communion because the Holy Orders aren’t valid. They aren’t valid because they don’t have apostolic succession and thus do not have authority to perform the sacrament of the Eucharist. That’s where I am coming from. I don’t understand where you are coming from…that is, how you can believe in the Real Presence while not being Catholic. It’s a mystery to me.

 

[TriuneUnity]

I don’t know…I’m just trying to piece together the logic and theolgy involved. If you don’t have apostolic succession how can you be sure you are practicing the sacraments as Jesus taught them? I can’t go to non-Catholic communion because the Holy Orders aren’t valid. They aren’t valid because they don’t have apostolic succession and thus do not have authority to perform the sacrament of the Eucharist. That’s where I am coming from. I don’t understand where you are coming from…that is, how you can believe in the Real Presence while not being Catholic. It’s a mystery to me.

I believe in it because Scripture teaches it. I don’t believe that the validity of the sacrament is tied to the one performing the words of institution; it is valid based on the promise of Christ to be with His church and in the promise of the words of institution themselves. In the same way that baptism is not valid or invalid based on who is performing it.

 

[VARC]

I believe in it because Scripture teaches it. I don’t believe that the validity of the sacrament is tied to the one performing the words of institution; it is valid based on the promise of Christ to be with His church and in the promise of the words of institution themselves. In the same way that baptism is not valid or invalid based on who is performing it.

Do you believe that everyone can validly and effectual consecrate bread and wine to truly becaome the body and blood of Christ?

 

[TriuneUnity]

Do you believe that everyone can validly and effectual consecrate bread and wine to truly becaome the body and blood of Christ?

Yes. Where ever two or more are gathered.

However, it is the duty within the congregation of the appointed elder/pastor of that congregation to administer the sacraments. Others within a congregation are not called to this particular ministry.

 

[VARC]

Yes. Where ever two or more are gathered.

However, it is the duty within the congregation of the appointed elder/pastor of that congregation to administer the sacraments. Others within a congregation are not called to this particular ministry.

As a fellow protestant I must respectfully disagree. This is a case where tradition has to interpret scripture. In practice, the sacrament of the Lord’s supper was only celebrated by a minister ordained (preist, bishop). This would indicate what Paul meant when he said that Timothy "stirs up the grace of God which is in thee through the imposition of [Paul’s] hands.

 

[TriuneUnity]

As a fellow protestant I must respectfully disagree. This is a case where tradition has to interpret scripture. In practice, the sacrament of the Lord’s supper was only celebrated by a minister ordained (preist, bishop). This would indicate what Paul meant when he said that Timothy "stirs up the grace of God which is in thee through the imposition of [Paul’s] hands.

I agree that ministers should be the ones serving their congregations the sacraments. We, as Lutherans, would consider it illicit for laymen to be doing it unless called by the congregation to do so.

But the simple fact of the matter is that nowhere in Scripture does it state that the Supper must be celebrated at all times by a minister and that the laying on of hands provides some interior ability to do so.

 

[Believe_85]

I agree that ministers should be the ones serving their congregations the sacraments. We, as Lutherans, would consider it illicit for laymen to be doing it unless called by the congregation to do so.

But the simple fact of the matter is that nowhere in Scripture does it state that the Supper must be celebrated at all times by a minister and that the laying on of hands provides some interior ability to do so.

Sounds like sola scriptura. That’s cool, I’m not going to argue about that in this thread, I just wanted to know. Thanks!

 

[Peter_J]

Believe_85,

I’m trying to understand what you are claiming in this thread, but it is extremely difficult.

First, just so we are on the same page, when I say “the Catholic Church”, I mean everyone who’s in full communion with Pope Benedict XVI. Do you mean that, or something else, when you say “the Catholic Church”? (It’s fine if you don’t, I’m just trying to understand.)

Second, you seem to be saying that:

1. The Catholic Church has a valid Eucharist.
2. No one outside of the Catholic Church has a valid Eucharist – even though the Catholic Church says that some of them do (the PNCC, the Oriental Orthodox, the Eastern Orthodox, etc.).

Is this what you’re saying?

 

[Our_Refuge]

I agree that ministers should be the ones serving their congregations the sacraments. We, as Lutherans, would consider it illicit for laymen to be doing it unless called by the congregation to do so.

But the simple fact of the matter is that nowhere in Scripture

Scripture is not the pillar and foundation of truth. What does the Church say is necessary for a valid Eucharist? And since there is only one True Church, that leaves out the Lutherans who do not have Apostolic succession.

 

[Our_Refuge]

The question should really be…Which Church keeps the Holy Eucharist in a Tabernacle, which Church takes the Holy Eucharist to the sick, which Church has Eucharistic adoration, and in which Church do the believers genuflect, bow and kneel before the Holy Eucharist. That should tell who truly has the Real Presence.

 

[JonNC]

The question should really be…Which Church keeps the Holy Eucharist in a Tabernacle, which Church takes the Holy Eucharist to the sick, which Church has Eucharistic adoration, and in which Church do the believers genuflect, bow and kneel before the Holy Eucharist. That should tell who truly has the Real Presence.

This may sound “rough”, but I don’t mean it to be, and I don’t mean to be disrespectful to anyone’s beliefs.
Your identifiers above are interesting, but the pious activities you state are not what the Eucharist is all about. Christ told us to “take eat”, and “take and drink”.
Genuflect, kneel, reseve the sacrament in a Tabernacle, practice adoration. Fine. But the real purpose is “take eat…” and “take and drink…” as Christ and then St. Paul tell us.

BTW, I always kneel in the presence of the Eucharist, and Lutheran pastors regularly take the sacrament to the sick and shut-ins.

Jon

 

[Our_Refuge]

Do Lutherans have Eucharistic adoration? Do Lutherans keep communion hosts in a locked Tabernacle? Do Lutherans genuflect in the presence of the Tabernacle? If not. Why not. If you truly have the True Presence of Christ you should do all of the above.

 

[Laurent_LUG]

There is 1 fact , the truth , we all live in the REAL presence !!

Salute & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:
– Laurent LUG (.@…), september 22, 2008

 

[Contarini]

To those members who are non-Catholic but believe in the Real Presence while believing Catholics have it wrong on one issue or another, do you believe only your church/faith/organization has the Real Presence?

Certainly not. Nor do Catholics believe this. You agree that the Orthodox have the Real Presence.

I’m curious because I wonder how Catholicism can be in error (in some non-Catholic perspectives) but still have the Real Presence.

If you do believe Catholics (and even other non-Catholic groups) also have the Real Presence, how could a group exist in error and still be blessed with the Real Presence?

Why do you see a relationship between the two? If we were talking about disbelief in the Incarnation or something like that, then your argument would make sense. But why would any/all doctrinal error invalidate the Real Presence? Again, your own Church doesn’t teach this. You believe that the Orthodox are in error concerning papal authority if not on other points, and yet you believe that they have the Real Presence. Many of us ecumenical Protestants believe that you are in about as much error as you think the Orthodox are. Maybe less, inasmuch as some of us would say that none of your teachings contradict revealed truth–it’s just that you require assent to things that are not revealed truth. But even those Protestants who think you are in more serious error can still believe that you have the Real Presence. It is up to *you *to make an argument as to why the two things are linked (as well as to explain the case of the Orthodox).

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

Do Lutherans have Eucharistic adoration? Do Lutherans keep communion hosts in a locked Tabernacle? Do Lutherans genuflect in the presence of the Tabernacle? If not. Why not. If you truly have the True Presence of Christ you should do all of the above.

You haven’t responded to JonNC’s point. Since these things are not what Christ told us to do with the Sacrament, they should not be litmus tests for the Real Presence. That being said, many Episcopalians do all of these things (though Eucharistic Adoration is fairly rare).

Edwin

 

[piperspop]

Originally Posted by Our Refuge
The question should really be…Which Church keeps the Holy Eucharist in a Tabernacle, which Church takes the Holy Eucharist to the sick, which Church has Eucharistic adoration, and in which Church do the believers genuflect, bow and kneel before the Holy Eucharist. That should tell who truly has the Real Presence.

Answer:

The Traditional Anglican Communion!
And we don’t let lay people distribute the Host, either!!!

 

[Our_Refuge]

You haven’t responded to JonNC’s point.

Since these things are not what Christ told us to do

Christ is the Church and His Church and the word of God has told us to do these things.

Exodus 25:8-9 “ And let them make me a sanctuary; that I may dwell among them. According to all that I have shown thee, after the pattern of the tabernacle, and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall ye make it.”

Psalm 95:6 - O come, let us worship and bow down, let us kneel before the LORD, our Maker!
Matthew 8:2 - …and behold, a leper came to him and knelt before him, saying, “Lord, if you will, you can make me clean”.
Matthew 15:25 - But she came and knelt before him, saying, “Lord, help me”.
Matthew 17:14-15 - And when they came to the crowd, a man came up to Jesus and kneeling before him said “Lord, have mercy on my son, for he is an epileptic…”
Mark 10:17 - And as he [Jesus] was setting out on his journey, a man ran up and knelt before him, and asked him, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life”

Romans 14:11 - for it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall give praise to God”.
Philippians 2:10 - at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth

 

[SIA]

To those members who are non-Catholic but believe in the Real Presence while believing Catholics have it wrong on one issue or another, do you believe only your church/faith/organization has the Real Presence?

I’m curious because I wonder how Catholicism can be in error (in some non-Catholic perspectives) but still have the Real Presence.

If you do believe Catholics (and even other non-Catholic groups) also have the Real Presence, how could a group exist in error and still be blessed with the Real Presence?

I believe that wherever it is presented and believed that Christ is truly present in the Eucharist, he is there. Jesus himself said this. I happen to be a Protestant who believes in the true presence of Jesus in our communion. I believe he is present in the Catholic church as well as the Orthodox chuch and any others who believe that Jesus is there truly, body, blood soul and divinity.

 

[TriuneUnity]

Scripture is not the pillar and foundation of truth. What does the Church say is necessary for a valid Eucharist? And since there is only one True Church, that leaves out the Lutherans who do not have Apostolic succession.

You’re correct…Scripture doesnt hold itself up…The Scripture is the truth, because it is God’s word. The Church holds up the Scriptures. Ergo, the church is the pillar of the truth. The Church, however, is not the truth. Christ is.

 

[Mannyfit75]

You’re correct…Scripture doesnt hold itself up…The Scripture is the truth, because it is God’s word. The Church holds up the Scriptures. Ergo, the church is the pillar of the truth. The Church, however, is not the truth. Christ is.

The Church is the pillar and bulwark of the Truth. The Church upholds it or support it.

The Bible itself is not the pillar and bulwark of truth. The Bible is the written Word of God but Christianity is not based on the Bible alone. Christianity is based on Jesus Christ, the Word in incarnate.

Second, it was not the Bible who died on the Church. Jesus died on the cross.