For non-Christians who respect Jesus as just a prophet

[Antwill]

This has probably been discussed, but to those of you who feel Christ was a great prophet, man, etc., but was not God - how can you believe this when He *claimed *to be God?

Wouldn’t someone who claimed to be God but was not be from the evil one at worst and a madman at best?

Just curious.

 

[Publisher]

The Mystery of the Incarnation is one of those things we all have difficulty explaining…to ourselves and to others…for some it comes to matters of “faith”…I find God expressed in Jesus of Nazareth…a human life divinely lived.

I believe he was human…100% human…as much of this earth as the dust of the ground. “God was in Christ”…“Though he existed in the form of God…but he emptied himself…and became a servant…” “The Word was God…and dwelt among us…” These are all affirmations of those who came to follow him…in their experience with Jesus of Nazareth, they came to know God in a new way. The gospels are testimonies of what they came to believe about him…they are not eyewitness accounts…but litrugical writings incorporating the Jewish calendar of events and equating Passover, Yom Kippur, Feast of Tabernacles…etc into his life…God was experienced…Israel’s God was made known in Jesus of Nazareth.

I do not believe the claims of divinity were made by Jesus…but by his followers as they came to understand him some 30-60 years later.

I know this doesn’t satisfy most of you…but it does me…I accept the Mystery lived out in Jesus of Nazareth…the gospels and writings of Paul are their testimonies of what they came to recognize in this man…this is how I answer his claims of divinity…I don’t beleive the man Jesus ever made such claims verbally…but his followers experienced God through him and the gospels and letters are their explanation of this extraordinary life lived before them.

I consider myself a “Christian”…but I also accept some of the nouns posed by some of you as well…“apostate”…“heretic”…etc…

 

[Antwill]

The Mystery of the Incarnation is one of those things we all have difficulty explaining…to ourselves and to others…for some it comes to matters of “faith”…I find God expressed in Jesus of Nazareth…a human life divinely lived.

I believe he was human…100% human…as much of this earth as the dust of the ground. “God was in Christ”…“Though he existed in the form of God…but he emptied himself…and became a servant…” “The Word was God…and dwelt among us…” These are all affirmations of those who came to follow him…in their experience with Jesus of Nazareth, they came to know God in a new way. The gospels are testimonies of what they came to believe about him…they are not eyewitness accounts…but litrugical writings incorporating the Jewish calendar of events and equating Passover, Yom Kippur, Feast of Tabernacles…etc into his life…God was experienced…Israel’s God was made known in Jesus of Nazareth.

I do not believe the claims of divinity were made by Jesus…but by his followers as they came to understand him some 30-60 years later.

I know this doesn’t satisfy most of you…but it does me…I accept the Mystery lived out in Jesus of Nazareth…the gospels and writings of Paul are their testimonies of what they came to recognize in this man…this is how I answer his claims of divinity…I don’t beleive the man Jesus ever made such claims verbally…but his followers experienced God through him and the gospels and letters are their explanation of this extraordinary life lived before them.

I consider myself a “Christian”…but I also accept some of the nouns posed by some of you as well…“apostate”…“heretic”…etc…

The gospels were eyewitness accounts. There are also many places where Christ claims His divinity. And even if His followers were the only ones who claimed He was God, wouldn’t Jesus be sinning by not correcting them of this error (sin of omission)? Yet, He never denies His divinity.

So, assuming you are right and Jesus never claimed that He was God - if He wasn’t God, wouldn’t the fact that He let others believe that He was make Him someone who was not worthly of such high respect that you afford to Him?

 

[Publisher]

Your belief that the gospels are eyewitness accounts is one of faith…that’s ok, I have no dispute with your beliefs, I believe through study and research of the biblical scholars I have read the gospels were not eyewitness accounts, but were written many decades after Jesus lived. My beliefs as stated is to answer the question as to what I believe, not to convince you.

The gospels are explanations…metaphore and hyperole…sacred myth to explain the experience these men and women had with Jesus of Nazareth. They came ot see God revealed in this man in a unique way…by the way he lived and by the way he died.

The gospels are not a blow by blow record of his life…but liturgical documents the early Jewish followers of Jesus of Nazareth incorporated into their “God experience” modifying their own sacred myths to incorporate the “Jesus event”.

 

[Antwill]

Your belief that the gospels are eyewitness accounts is one of faith…that’s ok, I have no dispute with your beliefs, I believe through study and research of the biblical scholars I have read the gospels were not eyewitness accounts, but were written many decades after Jesus lived. My beliefs as stated is to answer the question as to what I believe, not to convince you.

The gospels are explanations…metaphore and hyperole…sacred myth to explain the experience these men and women had with Jesus of Nazareth. They came ot see God revealed in this man in a unique way…by the way he lived and by the way he died.

The gospels are not a blow by blow record of his life…but liturgical documents the early Jewish followers of Jesus of Nazareth incorporated into their “God experience” modifying their own sacred myths to incorporate the “Jesus event”.

I see; you think that the conversation in Matthew 16 when Peter tells Jesus that He is the true Christ didn’t happen, that it is just a myth, metaphore, or hyperbole.

So, basically, your thought is that we really don’t have any way of knowing the historical Jesus because most of what is written about Him are not actual first hand accounts but just stories, allegories, and metaphors that were made up to further the “message” that His early Jewish followers wanted to promote.

It would seem to me that if this is your belief, you see the gospels as a huge misrepresentation of Christ, in that He and others are quoted saying that He is God, even though none of those conversations took place and none of them ever actually claimed His divinity.

If that is your belief, then how do you know enough about Jesus to have such respect for Him? I don’t understand that.

 

[hamba2han]

No one is “just a prophet” in Islam and in fact, Jesus (pbuh) was one of the 5 mightiest Prophets in the history of humankind.

There is a great deal of difference in the position of Prophets in Islam as compared to Christianity for Muslims do not believe that the Prophets (peace be upon them all) were capable of committing deliberate sins like incest and fornication.

If an all-knowing God was to send prophets to guide humankind, why would he choose sinners?.. It makes no sense whatsoever.

I mean… Would Catholics knowingly choose a sinner to be their Pope?

I would certainly hope not and so, why would God act differently when selecting His prophets?

After all, does not God know everything that they have done in their past and everything that they will do till the end of their lives?

 

[Antwill]

No one is “just a prophet” in Islam and in fact, Jesus (pbuh) was one of the 5 mightiest Prophets in the history of humankind.

There is a great deal of difference in the position of Prophets in Islam as compared to Christianity for Muslims do not believe that the Prophets (peace be upon them all) were capable of committing deliberate sins like incest and fornication.

If an all-knowing God was to send prophets to guide humankind, why would he choose sinners?.. It makes no sense whatsoever.

I mean… Would Catholics knowingly choose a sinner to be their Pope?

I would certainly hope not and so, why would God act differently when selecting His prophets?

After all, does not God know everything that they have done in their past and everything that they will do till the end of their lives?

If Islam believes that prophets are incapable of sinning, and Jesus claimed to be God even though He wasn’t (which would be a big sin, don’t you think?) then why is He revered as one of the five greatest prophets? Again, if He claimed to be God and wasn’t, He was at worst from the evil one and, at best, a madman, correct? Please answer that for me.

As far as the Pope being a sinner - of course he is. All are/were stained by sin save Jesus (of course) and the Virgin Mary.

 

[Publisher]

No not “misrepresentations”, but a faith communites response to what they came to believe through their experience with him.

We know relativly litte of the historical Jesus. Again, I have no problem with your faith statements…if they give you peace that’s great, trying to discuss various beliefs is one of the most difficult things to do it seems. Many feel if we disagree with them, it is an attack…it is not…it is a different belief about the Eternal.

Again, the gospels are not eyewitness accounts…IMO…you may hold different beleifs, that’s great, hold those beliefs tight.

I have respect for Jesus of Nazareth, because in what I have learned of him through the writings of these first followers…I have come to experience God through their testimony. Plain and simple…I don’t rely on their experience…I rely on my own…these stories have captivated my heart and soul and through their exposition of what they came to believe, I too have come to believe…I don’t believe in “magic” nor do I have a “magic world view”…but what I have experienced is that somehow “God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself…”

I don’t idolize the scriptures nor the men who wrote them. Through their experiences they have pointed me toward this man of Nazareth and in his teachings as recorded, I have found God in the writings of those who experienced Jesus of Nazareth.

The gospels are “history mythoogized”, not “history recorded”…Sacred Myth points us to a Greater Reality of Experiential Faith…I believe because of what I have experienced, not becasue of what others have.

A man who inspired such devotion must have been remarkable.

 

[hamba2han]

If Islam believes that prophets are incapable of sinning, and Jesus claimed to be God even though He wasn’t (which would be a big sin, don’t you think?) then why is He revered as one of the five greatest prophets? Again, if He claimed to be God and wasn’t, He was at worst from the evil one and, at best, a madman, correct? Please answer that for me.

As far as the Pope being a sinner - of course he is. All are/were stained by sin save Jesus (of course) and the Virgin Mary.

Jesus (pbuh) NEVER claimed to be God… Period!

As for the Pope, I meant – would Catholics choose a greater sinner than themselves to be their Pope?

If so, then why on earth would they do this??

 

[water]

Jesus (pbuh) NEVER claimed to be God… Period!

Oh, sure He did:

John 10:30 “The Father and I are one.”

Jesus told Thomas: “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through me. If you really knew me, you would now my Father also. From this point on you know him; you have seen him.”

“…Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me?”.

Galatians 2:20 Saint Paul said “It is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me.”

 

[hamba2han]

Oh, sure He did:

John 10:30 “The Father and I are one.”

Jesus told Thomas: “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through me. If you really knew me, you would now my Father also. From this point on you know him; you have seen him.”

“…Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me?”.

Galatians 2:20 Saint Paul said “It is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me.”

The description of Jesus (pbuh) that we have in the four Gospels and in the New Testament is a description of a man, not of God.

Jesus cried, felt tired, suffered and became fatigued. Like all humans, he sought rest and comfort. He felt hungry and searched for food and even got angry because of his hunger, as in the Gospel when he went to the fig tree to find some fruit to eat and when he did not find any, he hit the tree and cursed it.

Jesus once felt very tired and some ladies came and massaged him and anointed his feet with perfume. He felt fresh and satisfied as any human. He suffered sickness and even when, according to the Gospel, he was taken by the Roman soldiers to the cross, he was totally unable to carry his own cross.

And according to the Gospel, before he was taken to the cross, he prayed to God to save him from this plight.

Christians may say that he was sent to release humankind from the bondage of the original sin committed by Adam and to take our sin away and to reconcile ourselves to our Creator, but unfortunately, there is no direct statement by Jesus himself that he came to fulfill this mission.

He was very clear to tell people that God is my God and yours. He used to pray to God and ask Him for support and comfort. He never said, “I am God” or “I am the Son of God.” Rather, he was called several times in the Gospels “a prophet” and “a mighty prophet”. He was also called “the servant of God” like Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) after him. People used to shout, “Here a prophet has risen among us” and repeated this phrase whenever Jesus performed a miracle in front of people.

Christian theologians understand very well that it is beyond reason to prove that Jesus is a Son of God or that Jesus is divine; but it is very easy and straightforward to prove the prophethood of this great Messenger of God.

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

Jesus (pbuh) NEVER claimed to be God… Period!

As for the Pope, I meant – would Catholics choose a greater sinner than themselves to be their Pope?

If so, then why on earth would they do this??

I respect that you don’t believe in the New Testament as written. However, for those of us who do, Jesus claimed to be God many numbers of times. Including the statement, “Before Abraham was, I AM.” Even the Jews around Him knew he was claiming to be God as they then wanted to stone Him for blasphame. Jesus also took actions that were reserved for God alone. For example, He forgave sins as in the case of the paralytic man. The scribes present knew that only God could forgive that if Jesus were a mere man, He had no business saying “your sins are forgiven”. Then there’s the case where He changed the name of Simon to Peter. This is something that God did repeatedly in the Old Testament. There are many more examples, which I’m sure you are not interested in hearing because they don’t fit what you have been told in the quran. Not everything is as black and white as you seem to think. Jesus did not say " I am God" in those exact words, but using the term I AM was utterly sacred to Jews and a name only used for God.

The New Testament will not make sense to anyone when they are not read in context of the Old Testament. This is true for many protestants who only focus on the New Testament and it is especially true for Muslims who read the the New Testament in light of the teachings of the quran. In the Christian view, the quran is not part of the teachings of God and can shed no light on the New Testament.

The fact that Jesus “emptied Himself and became lower than the angels” speaks of His great love for mankind. You’re right that God, as pure spirit, would not feel tired or hungry. Those are the feelings of a man. That is why we teach that Jesus Christ is fully human. But He is also fully Divine. It doesn’t have to be either/or with God-- He can do it all, if He so chooses. He can be 200% so to speak. God can do what He wants, my friend, and Muslims seem to greatly limit God’s omnipotent power when they say “He couldn’t become man” or " He couldn’t die on the cross". (statements I’ve often heard for Muslims).

 

[Eileen_T]

God revealed himself to Moses as Yahweh “I Am who AM”

Jesus said, “Before Abraham was, I AM” That is why the Jews wanted to kill Him becase they believed He blasphemed in claiming to be God.

It was also Jesus who revealed God as Trinity.

The Apostle John, who wrote the 4th Gospel and the Book of Revelation was intimately connected to Jesus as a cousin, as well as being an eye witness to Jesus ministry on Earth. He would have read the other Gospel accounts and, if they had been in error he would have said as much. He didn’t.

If he was willing to let them pass as truth when he knew they were incorrect, that doesn’t say much for him as one of Jesus’ closest followers, does it?

It would mean he sat back and said nothing as hundreds of Christians were martyred for a belief that was false. I don’t think so.

 

[water]

The description of Jesus (pbuh) that we have in the four Gospels and in the New Testament is a description of a man, not of God.

Jesus cried, felt tired, suffered and became fatigued. Like all humans, he sought rest and comfort. He felt hungry and searched for food and even got angry because of his hunger, as in the Gospel when he went to the fig tree to find some fruit to eat and when he did not find any, he hit the tree and cursed it.

Jesus once felt very tired and some ladies came and massaged him and anointed his feet with perfume. He felt fresh and satisfied as any human. He suffered sickness and even when, according to the Gospel, he was taken by the Roman soldiers to the cross, he was totally unable to carry his own cross.

And according to the Gospel, before he was taken to the cross, he prayed to God to save him from this plight.

Christians may say that he was sent to release humankind from the bondage of the original sin committed by Adam and to take our sin away and to reconcile ourselves to our Creator, but unfortunately, there is no direct statement by Jesus himself that he came to fulfill this mission.

He was very clear to tell people that God is my God and yours. He used to pray to God and ask Him for support and comfort. He never said, “I am God” or “I am the Son of God.” Rather, he was called several times in the Gospels “a prophet” and “a mighty prophet”. He was also called “the servant of God” like Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) after him. People used to shout, “Here a prophet has risen among us” and repeated this phrase whenever Jesus performed a miracle in front of people.

Christian theologians understand very well that it is beyond reason to prove that Jesus is a Son of God or that Jesus is divine; but it is very easy and straightforward to prove the prophethood of this great Messenger of God.

I was wondering if you believe in the Trinity. If not, that is what you need to find out first before understanding who Jesus was/is.

 

[Antwill]

No not “misrepresentations”, but a faith communites response to what they came to believe through their experience with him.

We know relativly litte of the historical Jesus. Again, I have no problem with your faith statements…if they give you peace that’s great, trying to discuss various beliefs is one of the most difficult things to do it seems. Many feel if we disagree with them, it is an attack…it is not…it is a different belief about the Eternal.

Again, the gospels are not eyewitness accounts…IMO…you may hold different beleifs, that’s great, hold those beliefs tight.

I have respect for Jesus of Nazareth, because in what I have learned of him through the writings of these first followers…I have come to experience God through their testimony. Plain and simple…I don’t rely on their experience…I rely on my own…these stories have captivated my heart and soul and through their exposition of what they came to believe, I too have come to believe…I don’t believe in “magic” nor do I have a “magic world view”…but what I have experienced is that somehow “God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself…”

I don’t idolize the scriptures nor the men who wrote them. Through their experiences they have pointed me toward this man of Nazareth and in his teachings as recorded, I have found God in the writings of those who experienced Jesus of Nazareth.

The gospels are “history mythoogized”, not “history recorded”…Sacred Myth points us to a Greater Reality of Experiential Faith…I believe because of what I have experienced, not becasue of what others have.

A man who inspired such devotion must have been remarkable.

Please don’t take this as an attack, as that is not how it is intended, but your belief is yet another example of relativism. It appears to me from your statements that you don’t feel that there is a way to know the TRUTH, as everything is tainted by man’s own agenda in one degree or another.

I would guess that you would probably view people such as myself as naive in thinking that there is one revealed truth, and that it was revealed by Christ to the apostles who established the Catholic Church. I suppose that may be a fair assessment, but I would just call it grace.

 

[Antwill]

I think I’m starting to understand - correct me if I’m wrong: Those non-Christians who respect Jesus as a great prophet but not as God do so by discounting the gospel accounts of his life as myths, hyperbole, fantasy, etc. and, therefore claim that He never claimed that He was God despite much evidence to the contrary in the Scriptures, which, again, they do not put much stock in.

Is that about right?

 

[paarsurrey]

This has probably been discussed, but to those of you who feel Christ was a great prophet, man, etc., but was not God - how can you believe this when He *claimed *to be God?
Wouldn’t someone who claimed to be God but was not be from the evil one at worst and a madman at best?
Just curious.

Hi
Sorry to interrept you.
It is a permanant attribut of GodAllahYHWH to be eternal but Jesus died as per Christians for three days and three nights, that would be bad for God to die even for a moment as that would have caused a hole in eternity of God, an irreparable damage. This would be impossible, and proves that Jesus was Son of Man/Woman only.
In fact, in my opinion, Jesus did not die on Cross, God helped him save his life and did not forsook him. Jesus later died in India according to one tradition at the very ripe age of 120 years, a respectful, natural and human death.
Thanks

 

[dolphinlove]

What i dont understand is, since muslims claim that Jesus is just a prophet, they also believe he was of a virgin birth…
How can they explain the virgin birth since they dont believe he is the son of God?
And dont give me the same answer i always hear about Adam and Eve not having a mother or father… And they should be God’s as well etc…

 

[Antwill]

Hi
Sorry to interrept you.
It is a permanant attribut of GodAllahYHWH to be eternal but Jesus died as per Christians for three days and three nights, that would be bad for God to die even for a moment as that would have caused a hole in eternity of God, an irreparable damage. This would be impossible, and proves that Jesus was Son of Man/Woman only.
In fact, in my opinion, Jesus did not die on Cross, God helped him save his life and did not forsook him. Jesus later died in India according to one tradition at the very ripe age of 120 years, a respectful, natural and human death.
Thanks

I think you misunderstand the full humanity AND divinity of Christ. This theory that Christ died in India at 120 - please show some credible historical proof of this.

I always find it interesting that some seem to limit what God can do. For crying out loud - He’s God! If he wants to come down in a human body, have that body die (His human nature died, not His divine nature, by the way) and then raise it again in three days, why couldn’t He?

But this is really all off topic. What is your answer to the original question, if you don’t mind.

 

[KarenNC]

This has probably been discussed, but to those of you who feel Christ was a great prophet, man, etc., but was not God - how can you believe this when He *claimed *to be God?

Wouldn’t someone who claimed to be God but was not be from the evil one at worst and a madman at best?

I will go with powerful religious leader, someone who (according to recorded information available) taught some great moral lessons. I will even go with a prophet or son of a God or perhaps a God himself. The part I don’t buy is more fundamental—I do not believe that monotheism provides an adequate explanation for the spiritual reality that I have experienced and that has been recorded by millions of other people throughout history.

I also have no problem believing that he was possibly simply wrong. Not evil, not mad, just wrong. Being wrong in part does not negate the moral teachings—Christianity admits that there are moral teachings in many religions other than itself.

infidels.org/library/modern/james_still/trilemma.html