For other Baptists.............

[revertconvert]

What I was trying to get at is we believe the Baptism we need is that of the Holy Ghost. We base that belief on the scriptures. Now if I did not have a copy of the scriptures, I would only hear the Gospel preached at church (aka Catholic Mass…lets say 600 AD). Since they were telling/instructing everyone that they needed to have faith in Jesus and Baptism (infant) then how was anyone else saved?

How did anyone else KNOW they had to have a SPIRITUAL REBIRTH? Just seeking some logical responses without trying to bring up if Baptism is or is not required for salvation…cause we know where everyone stands on that.

So I guess…it is 600AD…here I stand in MASS. Benn baptised as an infant etc… went through all the sacraments (confirmation, communion, confession etc…). But since I have not had what we consider a real rebirth… how were people saved during that/this time?

The problem with your question is you are imposing your beliefs of being ‘born again’ over what people believed at that time. That is illogical.
By the way quit listening to way of the master radio and maybe you won’t get so confused. Talk about bad theology.

 

[DRIVING_BEAR]

Because this is a Catholic forum, there just might not be enough Baptist here at this time to get any good answers./Q

well you have a baptist here

First off some people confuse water baptism with baptism of the holy spirit .

Water baptism is not required for salvation.

the baptism of the holy spirit is a result of being “born again”
not a condition of or to being born again.

The holy spirit is a your born again birth certificate see Eph 1:13

 

[Freebird]

If “Ye must be born again”, and we understand what this rebirth is. And if we concur the the CC has the rebirth via baptism as being erroneous, how then were people saved from about 400 AD - 1400 AD (as an example) if people did not have copies of the bible and the only preaching they heard was from the pulpit of a Catholic Church - telling them that they were reborn at their infant baptism…

How did people experience (in our opinion) the real “rebirth”? or better yet, know they had too?

Thanks and I look forward to your replies.

The “rebirth” experienced at infant baptism is the securing oneself into the body of the Church, providing total elimination of original sin, new birth through the Holy Spirit–allowing us to become “adopted children of God” (see Gal 4:5-7)–as well as instuting within us the capacity to obtain perfect faith, hope, and love. (Of course, this does not mean that once baptized BAM! - we totally trust God and are fulfilled with the exact measurements of love, wisdom, compassion, ect.; but we now have the ability to achieve that, through faith in God.)

*“i will sprinkle clean water upon you, and you shall be clean…A new heart i will give you, and a new spirit i will put within you, and i will take out of your flesh the heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And i will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to observe my ordinances.” * ~a prophecy of baptism, ezekiel 36:25-27

It is a visual statement that those who baptized you (aka, your parents) are confirming the baby will grow in, or (at the very least) be exposed to, faith. Literally, it prepares the way for the power of God to work through their life and provide them with stregnth, just as Jesus was baptized directly before he entered the desert and was tempted by Satan.

God understands the human way of life and how it progresses (i mean, He created us. ). So, it seems very irrational for a loving God to damn babies to hell, when they themselves are not yet even capable of making an indepent decision to follow Him.
In addition to inaugurating the baby in the church, baptism serves as a public announcement to the church community that the parents (and godparents) will be strong examples and influences the baby’s walk of faith that begins at baptism.

i understand that protestants and catholics agree in multiple areas about what baptism (i.e., forgiveness of sin).
but…What exactly do you define as the “real rebirth”?
And if it obviously wasn’t known/needed in 400-1400 AD, why should it be valid today?

peace broha,
-bree!

 

[MariaG]

What I was trying to get at is we believe the Baptism we need is that of the Holy Ghost. We base that belief on the scriptures. Now if I did not have a copy of the scriptures, I would only hear the Gospel preached at church (aka Catholic Mass…lets say 600 AD). Since they were telling/instructing everyone that they needed to have faith in Jesus and Baptism (infant) then how was anyone else saved?

How did anyone else KNOW they had to have a SPIRITUAL REBIRTH? Just seeking some logical responses without trying to bring up if Baptism is or is not required for salvation…cause we know where everyone stands on that.

So I guess…it is 600AD…here I stand in MASS. Benn baptised as an infant etc… went through all the sacraments (confirmation, communion, confession etc…). But since I have not had what we consider a real rebirth… how were people saved during that/this time?

Maybe your answer is that what you think and understand about the sacraments is in error, maybe baptist OSAS clearly wasn’t taught. People KNEW that they had to be born again. That grace is originally imparted through baptism. But they also knew and were taught that they had to respond to that grace or they would be lost.

Maybe they were saved exactly how the Church taught and teaches today and the error is in baptist theology?

 

[dbacks5439]

People are given the chance to affirm their faith, to believe as believers has put it, at the Sacrament of Confirmation.

 

[mark_a]

People are given the chance to affirm their faith, to believe as believers has put it, at the Sacrament of Confirmation.

Yesyesyesyesyesyes.

Before our latest was baptised, our priest spent an hour and a half with us explaining the sacrament. He said that baptism is as much of a promise to God as anything else by the parents that we will raise the child Catholic.

We are free to reject God at any time, baptised or not.

He also told us that if we don’t take the full responsiblity of teaching the faith to our children, within a generation or two we won’t have any Catholic decendants.

 

[MariaG]

People are given the chance to affirm their faith, to believe as believers has put it, at the Sacrament of Confirmation.

Yes, in the Roman Rite. But in the Eastern Rite, they baptize, confirm, and recieve first communion as infants also.

While this is one of the things that confirmation has become in the West, it was for reasons other than allowing a person to affirm their own faith.

BUT, we all have the chance to affirm our faith everyyear at Easter time when we renew our Baptismal promises. This is when we affirm our faith and reject Satan anew

 

[mark_a]

bump

 

[Catherine_S]

BUT, we all have the chance to affirm our faith every year at Easter time when we renew our Baptismal promises. This is when we affirm our faith and reject Satan anew

.

 

[Nebuchadnezzar]

deb1;1851677:

Because this is a Catholic forum, there just might not be enough Baptist here at this time to get any good answers.[/Q

well you have a baptist here

First off some people confuse water baptism with baptism of the holy spirit .

Water baptism is not required for salvation.

the baptism of the holy spirit is a result of being “born again”
not a condition of or to being born again.

The holy spirit is a your born again birth certificate see Eph 1:13

Where does it say that they are not done at the same time?

See :
Ezekiel 36:25-27 - “I will spinkle clean water upon you…and a new spirit I will put in you…”

Mark 16:16 - “He who believes and is baptized will be saved…” Said by Jesus to his apostles just before he asscended into heaven. Jesus showed us how to do this when he was baptized then received the spirit .

John 3:5 - Jesus is baptized then receives the spirit.

Titus 3:5 - This verse shoes both elements of Baptism Water and the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 6:11 - Speaks of baptisms sanctifiying aspects.

Acts 22:16 - Baptism forgives sins

1 Peter 3: 20-21 - Peter compares how Noah and his family were saved through water to Baptism which now saves you.

God Bless,

[/quote]

 

[mark_a]

bump

 

[Sixtus]

I usaed to work with a guy who was a Baptist lay preacher. He was a nice guy but he was so hostile towards me. He used to support anything that opposed Catholic Teaching.

He was predictably very pro-abortion. Then it seemed his church made a pronouncement on it and he claimed the Catholics were only copying the Baptist’s as they had ‘no original thoughts of their own’. That sort of thing used to really annoy me.

He further used to allege that only the Baptist could claim apostolic succession as though their major roots only appeared to go back to 1889, in reality they could trace their roots back to apostolic times.

He never explained how.

How can Baptists claim apostolic succession?

 

[MariaG]

How can Baptists claim apostolic succession?

They do so with the “Trail of Blood” theory.

Here are a couple of links.

“Ancient Baptists” and Other Myths *By Fr. Hugh Barbour, O.Praem.
*The Trail of Blood-Baptist Successionism By Steve Ray
**
I found these links on this thread

 

[mark_a]

bump

 

[Legal_Eagle]

I used to work with a guy who was a Baptist lay preacher. He was a nice guy but he was so hostile towards me. He used to support anything that opposed Catholic Teaching.

He was predictably very pro-abortion.

WHAT???

Most of my good friends are Baptists. I don’t know any who are pro-abortion (or pro-choice if you prefer). In fact the Baptists around here are at least as active in the anti-abortion movement as are the Catholics. Your friend sounds like a strange bird.

Intrinsic to most Baptist “arguments” against the Church are denials of objective history. They deny that the Apostolic Church continued beyond the death of St. John, and contend that the Catholic Church was and is purely the product of Roman and subsequently European politics. How or whether the Gospel was effectively transmitted, and what happened to people’s souls, for the 1200 years between the Constantine and Martin Luther is not something you will be able to pull out of a Baptist. The large majority of them quite frankly don’t give it a miniute’s thought.

 

[Texan_in_DC]

First, the one baptism that saves is the baptism with the Holy Ghost. The Word of God states that one must believe the gospel to be baptized by the Holy Ghost. It is impossible for a baby to be believe. THEREFORE infants cannot be baptized with the Holy Spirit. Infant baptism is erroneous. You can sprinkle their foreheads all day long but they will not be baptized with the Holy Spirit until they make a conscious decision to follow Jesus.

This is why The Catholic Church has both the sacrament of baptism and the sacrament of confirmation!

You would have to quote the word of God book chapter and verse that says one must believe the gospel to be baptized?

I personally have never heard of that one?

And within the Sacrament of Confirmation we as adults or young adults are confirming our baptism and as an adult confirming our belief and trust in God , Jesus and His Church

 

[Texan_in_DC]

This is why The Catholic Church has both the sacrament of baptism and the sacrament of confirmation!

You would have to quote the word of God book chapter and verse that says one must believe the gospel to be baptized?

I personally have never heard of that one?

And within the Sacrament of Confirmation we as adults or young adults are confirming our baptism and as an adult confirming our belief and trust in God , Jesus and His Church

ah i got where you are pulling that from

Jesus Christ sent out the 12 apostles to preach the gospel they were preaching the good news to those who have not heard it.

Now we know that the 12 apostles converted entire families, parent and child. Nowhhere in the bible does it say go out and baptize only adults, after many of the families converted over to christianity from which they came they too had more babies and from the begining the Church baptised them into their new faith.

Now if you can show me in the bible where it says that no infants are baptized then you may have an arguement then, if not you are assuming that baptism is only for adults who beleive.

As a Christian parent though we have a God given responsiblity to raise them in a Christian him, and out of love we would want our children to be baptized to wash away that original sin, so that they are once again set free to make their own decisons just like our original parents Adam and Eve made.

 

[believers]

This is why The Catholic Church has both the sacrament of baptism and the sacrament of confirmation!

You would have to quote the word of God book chapter and verse that says one must believe the gospel to be baptized?

I personally have never heard of that one?

And within the Sacrament of Confirmation we as adults or young adults are confirming our baptism and as an adult confirming our belief and trust in God , Jesus and His Church

Just because you have not personally heard of that doesn’t mean it isn’t true.

Mar 16:15
And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Mar 16:16
He that BELIEVETH and is baptized (refers to the baptism of the Holy Ghost) shall be saved; but he that BELIEVETH NOT shall be damned.

Notice how it doesn’t say… he that is not baptized shall be damned but he that “believeth not”.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

First, the one baptism that saves is the baptism with the Holy Ghost.

The Bible:

Do not be afraid, Zechariah; your prayer has been heard. Your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you are to give him the name John. He will be a joy and delight to you, and many will rejoice because of his birth, for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even from birth.

believers:

The Word of God states that one must believe the gospel to be baptized by the Holy Ghost. It is impossible for a baby to be believe.

The Bible:

At that time Mary got ready and hurried to a town in the hill country of Judea, where she entered Zechariah’s home and greeted Elizabeth. When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. In a loud voice she exclaimed: "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?..

believers:

THEREFORE infants cannot be baptized with the Holy Spirit. Infant baptism is erroneous.

The Bible:

…As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy. Blessed is she who has believed that what the Lord has said to her will be accomplished!"

believers:

You can sprinkle their foreheads all day long but they will not be baptized with the Holy Spirit until they make a conscious decision to follow Jesus.

The Bible:

And you, my child, will be called a prophet of the Most High;
for you will go on before the Lord to prepare the way for him,
to give his people the knowledge of salvation
through the forgiveness of their sins,
because of the tender mercy of our God,
by which the rising sun will come to us from heaven
to shine on those living in darkness
and in the shadow of death,
to guide our feet into the path of peace.

 

[Freebird]

Just because you have not personally heard of that doesn’t mean it isn’t true.

Mar 16:15
And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Jesus, as I’m sure you recall, also commanded his disciples to go out in the world and baptize all nations.

Mar 16:16
He that BELIEVETH and is baptized (refers to the baptism of the Holy Ghost) shall be saved; but he that BELIEVETH NOT shall be damned.

Notice how it doesn’t say… he that is not baptized shall be damned but he that “believeth not”.

Think about it…wouldn’t it be redundant for Jesus to say that? Why would someone get baptized if they did not believe (or, in a baby’s case, baptized in a communion with believers who would help the child grow in his faith)? Someone wouldn’t have a random urge to get baptized if they didn’t believe the Scripture that taught that. And even if they did, it wouldn’t be enough–belief and baptism are interwound; you cannot have one without the other (as shown below).

Matthew 28:18 - "Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.”

Ephisians 4:5 - “One Lord, one faith, one baptism.”

~Bree