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Catholic4aReasn
Guest
If we are saved by faith alone is love of God and neighbor unnecessary for salvation?
In Christ,
Nancy
In Christ,
Nancy
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allisonP
Guest
It is my understanding that no, it is not needed for you to love your brothers and sisters to be saved.
However scripture tells us that we will know if someone is of Christ by the fruits they bare.
The question is, is it possible to be a true christian and NOT love God or your neighbor or your enemy for that matter?
The answer is no. If you have Christ living in you, you will be compelled to love. Not for salvation, but because God is love and it will be a natural thing to feel.
Please keep in mind that the only reason I am on this board is because I am curious about the Cathoic faith and am seeking wisdom.
But I am answering your question as it is posed to a non-catholic and that is what I am.
However scripture tells us that we will know if someone is of Christ by the fruits they bare.
The question is, is it possible to be a true christian and NOT love God or your neighbor or your enemy for that matter?
The answer is no. If you have Christ living in you, you will be compelled to love. Not for salvation, but because God is love and it will be a natural thing to feel.
Please keep in mind that the only reason I am on this board is because I am curious about the Cathoic faith and am seeking wisdom.
But I am answering your question as it is posed to a non-catholic and that is what I am.
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Catholic4aReasn
Guest
Scripture doesnāt speak of love as a feeling but rather as an action. Itās this understanding that Iām using when speaking of āloveā.
Why would God consider it necessary to command us to do something that comes naturally?
Scripture says that whoever loves God MUST also love his brother (1 John 5:21). If this is something that God says we MUST do are we saved if we donāt? Why or why not?
In Christ,
Nancy
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scylla
Guest
It is also illustrated in Corinthians 13 how you can have faith without love.
What is the greatest of faith, hope and love?
This is one of my favorite chapters in the Bible, it is beautiful.
usccb.org/nab/bible/1corinthians/1corinthians13.htm
In Christ
Scylla
What is the greatest of faith, hope and love?
This is one of my favorite chapters in the Bible, it is beautiful.
usccb.org/nab/bible/1corinthians/1corinthians13.htm
In Christ
Scylla
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Catholic4aReasn
Guest
I post on a Protestant message board and Iām trying SOOOOO hard to understand their position on this but it makes absolutely NO sense to me.
Scripture is clear, as you pointed out that, that one can have faith, āall faithā in fact, and still not have love. If we are saved by faith alone then technically Christians donāt even HAVE to love God, or anyone else for that matter. That makes no sense to me.
Some are saying that love is a result of being saved. That doesnāt jibe with 1 Cor 13:2:
If I have all faith so as to move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.
If we are saved by faith alone then certainly one who has āall faithā is saved. According to the argument then that person should have love since itās merely a by-product of salvation. Yet Paul specifically says that itās possible to have faith WITHOUT love.
Certainly love is not necessary for our initial justification, but to āremain in Christā mustnāt one love?
In Christ,
Nancy
Scripture is clear, as you pointed out that, that one can have faith, āall faithā in fact, and still not have love. If we are saved by faith alone then technically Christians donāt even HAVE to love God, or anyone else for that matter. That makes no sense to me.
Some are saying that love is a result of being saved. That doesnāt jibe with 1 Cor 13:2:
If I have all faith so as to move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.
If we are saved by faith alone then certainly one who has āall faithā is saved. According to the argument then that person should have love since itās merely a by-product of salvation. Yet Paul specifically says that itās possible to have faith WITHOUT love.
Certainly love is not necessary for our initial justification, but to āremain in Christā mustnāt one love?
In Christ,
Nancy
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allisonP
Guest
āto remain in Christ, mustnāt one love?ā This was asked by Nancy.
I think what I was trying to sayin my earlier response was that when one is in Christ they love.
How can I be in Christ and not love?
Yes sometimes loving someone is a choice I make. Some people can be down right unlovable sometimes, yet because Christ loves me I will love them.
Not for salvation but because I am compelled to.
I hope I am saying this clearly.
I am only speaking for myself not all protestantās.
I will tell you something else,
I donāt even pray for forgivness. I thank God for it, but I donāt ask for it. It has already been given to me.
Having said that let me also say that all of the reading I have been doing on here and in other places has caused me to question this as well as some other beliefs I have.
Your prayers are always welcome!
I am just shareing what I know as a non-catholic. Hope it helps.
I think what I was trying to sayin my earlier response was that when one is in Christ they love.
How can I be in Christ and not love?
Yes sometimes loving someone is a choice I make. Some people can be down right unlovable sometimes, yet because Christ loves me I will love them.
Not for salvation but because I am compelled to.
I hope I am saying this clearly.
I am only speaking for myself not all protestantās.
I will tell you something else,
I donāt even pray for forgivness. I thank God for it, but I donāt ask for it. It has already been given to me.
Having said that let me also say that all of the reading I have been doing on here and in other places has caused me to question this as well as some other beliefs I have.
Your prayers are always welcome!
I am just shareing what I know as a non-catholic. Hope it helps.
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Catholic4aReasn
Guest
1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Forgiveness is not given until we confess our sins. The idea that God forgives all sins; past, present and future at the moment we are saved in relatively new to Christianity. A comforting idea, to be sure, but an anti-scriptural one.
Matt 6
14 "For if you forgive people their wrongdoing, your heavenly Father will forgive you as well. 15 But if you donāt forgive people, your Father will not forgive your wrongdoing.
God forgives us to the degree that we forgive others. If all of our sins; past present and future; were forgiven at the moment we were saved it wouldnāt matter the slightest bit whether or not we forgive others because our sins would already be forgiven. Jesus, however, said that they are not.
In Christ,
Nancy
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puzzleannie
Guest
read and ponder the Gospel for the feast of Christ the King, the judgement of the nations, and ponder Christās warning: whatever you do or fail to do for the least of My people you do for or fail to do for Me. Those who do not love these little ones will not enter the kingdom of heaven, but will be cast into everlasting fire. Matt 25:31-46
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herry
Guest
Dear Folks,
I hope I can help. Sola Scripture/ Sola Fide is the oldest teaching among Christianity. The Apostles taught it. And even most of the church fathers called saints in the Catholic Church, and in particular the Ante-Nicene Fathers, taught sola fide. If you will bear with my bold Hypothesis I will now explain.
āFor by grace ye are saved by faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boastā Ephesians 2:8-9
āFor we are saved by hopeā¦ā Romans 8:24
Even King David got a taste of this grace.
āBless the Lord, O my soul, All that is within me, bless His holy nameā¦He hath not dealt with us after our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities. For as high as heaven is above the earth, so great is his mercy to them that fear him. As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgression from us. Like as a father pitieth His children, so also the Lord pitieth them theat fear himā Psalm 103:1, 10-13
This is the joy and shock you feel in your heart when you understand that salvation is of the Lord, and not of ourselves. God credits righteousness apart from works.
āTherefore we conclude that man is justified by faith without the deeds of the lawā Romans 3:28
Works are merely the fruit of being in a relationship with Christ. Sola Fide is not a new teaching, it originated as we learned Godās plan for mankindās salvation as it unfolded throughout History. Compare this last statement which I derived from my study of the Bible with the writings of a man recognized as a saint by the Catholic Church.
āAn we too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be the glory for ever and ever. Amenā --1st Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians, Ch. XXXII, Ant-Nicene Fathers p. 13
Salvation and works are seperate. When we experience Godās grace, we canāt help but love him. Think about it like marriage. I would do something to make my wife happy. Not to gain her love, but because I already love her.
What about when we get saved? Are all our sins past present and future forgiven? āFor by one offering He hath perfected for ever them that are sanctifiedā¦This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, Saith the Lordā¦I will put my law into thier hearts, and in their minds I will write them. And thier sins and iniquities I will remember no moreā Heb. 10:14, 16, 17
Paul agrees: āThere is therefore now no condemnation to them who are in Christ Jesus who walk not after the flesh, but after the spirit. For the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh (no man could keep the law) God, sending His own son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the felsh. That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us who walk not after the flesh but after the spiritā Romans 8:1-4
Even if we sin, what do we do? āWe have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ, the righteousā¦ā 1 John 2:1 So āI prayed unto the Lord my God and made my confessionā¦ā Daniel 9:4 āā¦I said, I will confess my transgression unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sinā Psalm 32:5
All our sins were paid for 2000 years ago. āWithout the shedding of blood their is no remissionā¦ā Heb 9:22 It is only by faith in Godās grace that we can ever hope to gain salvation or forgiveness.
āNor yet that he should offer himself oftenā¦For then he must have often suffered since the foundation of the worldā¦And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this is the judgement, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvationā Hebrews 9:25, 26, 27, 28
I hope this helps you understand why protestants beleive sola fide.
Peace in Christ alone,
-Herry
I hope I can help. Sola Scripture/ Sola Fide is the oldest teaching among Christianity. The Apostles taught it. And even most of the church fathers called saints in the Catholic Church, and in particular the Ante-Nicene Fathers, taught sola fide. If you will bear with my bold Hypothesis I will now explain.
āFor by grace ye are saved by faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boastā Ephesians 2:8-9
āFor we are saved by hopeā¦ā Romans 8:24
Even King David got a taste of this grace.
āBless the Lord, O my soul, All that is within me, bless His holy nameā¦He hath not dealt with us after our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities. For as high as heaven is above the earth, so great is his mercy to them that fear him. As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgression from us. Like as a father pitieth His children, so also the Lord pitieth them theat fear himā Psalm 103:1, 10-13
This is the joy and shock you feel in your heart when you understand that salvation is of the Lord, and not of ourselves. God credits righteousness apart from works.
āTherefore we conclude that man is justified by faith without the deeds of the lawā Romans 3:28
Works are merely the fruit of being in a relationship with Christ. Sola Fide is not a new teaching, it originated as we learned Godās plan for mankindās salvation as it unfolded throughout History. Compare this last statement which I derived from my study of the Bible with the writings of a man recognized as a saint by the Catholic Church.
āAn we too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be the glory for ever and ever. Amenā --1st Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians, Ch. XXXII, Ant-Nicene Fathers p. 13
Salvation and works are seperate. When we experience Godās grace, we canāt help but love him. Think about it like marriage. I would do something to make my wife happy. Not to gain her love, but because I already love her.
What about when we get saved? Are all our sins past present and future forgiven? āFor by one offering He hath perfected for ever them that are sanctifiedā¦This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, Saith the Lordā¦I will put my law into thier hearts, and in their minds I will write them. And thier sins and iniquities I will remember no moreā Heb. 10:14, 16, 17
Paul agrees: āThere is therefore now no condemnation to them who are in Christ Jesus who walk not after the flesh, but after the spirit. For the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh (no man could keep the law) God, sending His own son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the felsh. That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us who walk not after the flesh but after the spiritā Romans 8:1-4
Even if we sin, what do we do? āWe have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ, the righteousā¦ā 1 John 2:1 So āI prayed unto the Lord my God and made my confessionā¦ā Daniel 9:4 āā¦I said, I will confess my transgression unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sinā Psalm 32:5
All our sins were paid for 2000 years ago. āWithout the shedding of blood their is no remissionā¦ā Heb 9:22 It is only by faith in Godās grace that we can ever hope to gain salvation or forgiveness.
āNor yet that he should offer himself oftenā¦For then he must have often suffered since the foundation of the worldā¦And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this is the judgement, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvationā Hebrews 9:25, 26, 27, 28
I hope this helps you understand why protestants beleive sola fide.
Peace in Christ alone,
-Herry
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VociMike
Guest
An excellent question. Does one need to command an apple tree to produce apples? Then why are we commanded to produce our fruit?
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allisonP
Guest
This is what I have believed until recently. Now I am confused.
The Catholicās also quote scripture that upholds their beliefās.
Is thier no way to know?
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herry
Guest
Dear AllisonP,
There is no need too be confused. I would suggest that you read the book of Romans. It only takes about 20-30 minutes to read. If you donāt have time then focus on chapters 3-8.
There is only one way to know for sure which is correct. Many people decide for one or the other. But it all comes down to what we are willing to place our faith in. If God didnāt give you the intelligence to understand scripture, how could you understand even an explination of it? āTo the law and to the testimony, if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in themā Isaiah 8:20
God is close to every one of us. Jesus alone stands with open arms waiting to lavish his love and grace on us. It is a free gift and the golden oil that buys it for us is simply taking it. āCome unto me, all who are heavy laden (trying to earn salvation with good works will only disappoint us), and I will give you restā āā¦and let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will let him take of the water of life freelyā Rev. 22:17
Peace in Christ alone,
Herry
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Catholic4aReasn
Guest
Of course there is Allison! Jesus isnāt going to promise us all truth (John 16:13) without also providing a way to know for sure what that truth is.
Thatās why he established a church before he left. The church is more than just all believers, it actually has a purpose. That purpose is to uphold, protect and defend the truth (1 Tim 3:15).
Protestants try to put the bible alone in that position but, by itās very name (testament), thatās not where it belongs. āTestamentā means āwitnessā. The bible is a WITNESS to the truth, not the judge of the truth. The bible (witness) says that itās the CHURCH that is the judge, the one that upholds, protects and defends that truth that the bible witnesses to.
The āchurchā as nothing more than āall believersā canāt possible uphold, protect and defend the truth because the church of all believers canāt agree on just what the truth is. Within this church of all believers there are conflicting and contrdictory truths being upheld, protected and defended by different believers. Yet we know that, because Jesus is Truth, that truth CANāT contradict itself.
Iām praying for you Allison. I can see the holy Spirit at work in you!!
In Christ,
Nancy
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Catholic4aReasn
Guest
Hi herry!
No one actually taught āfaith aloneā until Luther. He was the very first. Certainly up to that point everyone taught that faith is necessary for salvation but NO ONE ever said that āfaith aloneā is what saves. No one. Period. What all of the church fathers said is exactly what the Church has always taught. Itās possible that you have been mistaught about just what Catholic teaching is on this issue.
James couldnāt have been any clearer:
James 2:24**You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
This is exacly why Luther called James an āepistle of strawā and wanted to exclude it from his bible. God, through James, flat out contradicted what Luther āknewā to be true.
The Protestant position seems to be āthatās not what I believe therefore that canāt be what James meantā.
Essentially you must say āJames said that we are NOTjustified by faith alone but what he meant by that is that we ARE justified by faith aloneā.
Our initian justification is entirely a free gift. But scripture is clear that once we are āin Christā we must remain there (1 John 2:24-25,28). We remain in Christ through faith working in love (Gal 5:6.) Both faith and works (love/obedience) are responses to Godās grace.
Grace is what everything boils down to. Really, the only āaloneā that one can claim results in salvation is āgrace aloneā. We are saved by grace through faith working in love.
Hereās an interesting article by Jimmy Akin on this issue. It puts both of our understandings into perspective:
faith alone
In Christ,
Nancy
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John_Joseph
Guest
Hello Nancy:Hereās an interesting article by Jimmy Akin on this issue. It puts both of our understandings into perspective:
faith alone
In Christ,
Nancy
Thanks for the link. Iāll read on my way home tonight. I posted a similar question in the apologetics forum yesterday. Probably should have checked here first!
John
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Lillith
Guest
Loving our enemies is the hardest thing to accomplish, and certainly doesnāt happen immediately after becoming Christian.
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John_Joseph
Guest
Hi Herry:
Thanks for your post. If Iām understanding this correctly, are you saying that the grace bestowed upon you through faith alone is conditional? If so, then is it really faith alone?
Thanks
John
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MariaG
Guest
What I have found is that most believe when a person is following Christ, love, the works, *naturally *flows from those who love Christ. While most Catholics tend to feel that the love, the works, is a conscious choice to accept the grace made available to accomplish the job.I post on a Protestant message board and Iām trying SOOOOO hard to understand their position on this but it makes absolutely NO sense to me.
Scripture is clear, as you pointed out that, that one can have faith, āall faithā in fact, and still not have love. If we are saved by faith alone then technically Christians donāt even HAVE to love God, or anyone else for that matter. That makes no sense to me.
Some are saying that love is a result of being saved. That doesnāt jibe with 1 Cor 13:2:
If I have all faith so as to move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.
If we are saved by faith alone then certainly one who has āall faithā is saved. According to the argument then that person should have love since itās merely a by-product of salvation. Yet Paul specifically says that itās possible to have faith WITHOUT love.
Certainly love is not necessary for our initial justification, but to āremain in Christā mustnāt one love?
In Christ,
Nancy
The problem I have found with the first attitude is when a job comes up that you really donāt want to do, you feel like there is something wrong with you, maybe that you are backsliding or something just because you donāt ānaturallyā want to do the job that you know the Holy Spirit has laid on your heart.
Try asking if they believe a person must āwalk the walkā after they are saved.
God Bless,
Maria
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Elzee
Guest
Hello Allison!
God bless you as you seek the truth. My prayers are with you.
Iād like to suggest that you go to www.biblechristiansociety.com and order the free cdās Mr. Martignoni has available. The two I would recommend you listen to first are: One Church, and the one on the Sacraments (I canāt remember what the exact name of that one is right now). All of his cdās are very methodical in their explanations, straightforward and biblically based.
God bless you as you seek the truth. My prayers are with you.
Iād like to suggest that you go to www.biblechristiansociety.com and order the free cdās Mr. Martignoni has available. The two I would recommend you listen to first are: One Church, and the one on the Sacraments (I canāt remember what the exact name of that one is right now). All of his cdās are very methodical in their explanations, straightforward and biblically based.
H
herry
Guest
Dear Catholic4aReason,Hi herry!
No one actually taught āfaith aloneā until Luther. He was the very first. Certainly up to that point everyone taught that faith is necessary for salvation but NO ONE ever said that āfaith aloneā is what saves. No one. Period. What all of the church fathers said is exactly what the Church has always taught. Itās possible that you have been mistaught about just what Catholic teaching is on this issue.
James couldnāt have been any clearer:
James 2:24**You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
This is exacly why Luther called James an āepistle of strawā and wanted to exclude it from his bible. God, through James, flat out contradicted what Luther āknewā to be true.
The Protestant position seems to be āthatās not what I believe therefore that canāt be what James meantā.
Essentially you must say āJames said that we are NOTjustified by faith alone but what he meant by that is that we ARE justified by faith aloneā.
Our initian justification is entirely a free gift. But scripture is clear that once we are āin Christā we must remain there (1 John 2:24-25,28). We remain in Christ through faith working in love (Gal 5:6.) Both faith and works (love/obedience) are responses to Godās grace.
Grace is what everything boils down to. Really, the only āaloneā that one can claim results in salvation is āgrace aloneā. We are saved by grace through faith working in love.
Hereās an interesting article by Jimmy Akin on this issue. It puts both of our understandings into perspective:
faith alone
In Christ,
Nancy
Thank you for bringing that verse in James to my attention. Perhaps people felt a little too much poetic licsence after reading Pauls letter to the Romans. The letter of James is similar to Johns 3 letters in which it says āHe that saith he is in the light, but hateth his brother is in darkness even until nowā 1 John 3:9
In no way to Protestants āset and forgetā thier faith, but it it a process. Read the āworksā of which James speaks. Like in chapter 2 about treating a rich and poor man with the same resepct. He also speaks of keeping Godās commandments (2:10, 11). See also 1 John 3:18, 23. Are not James and John are speaking of the good works that natrually follow when a person is in a relationship with Jesus? The fruits such as love, respect, etc natrually follow when Christās love is upwelling out of our hearts. But James does not contradict Paulās teaching that we are justified by faith in Godās grace without deeds. The only way to understand the realtionship between garce and works is to read it in the Bible. Proactive obedience to Christ after we are saved is evident of a true relationship with him.
Oh, could you please tell me in which of Luthers writings He spoke against the book of James?
Peace in Christ alone,
Herry
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