For our non-catholic followers: A what and if Question

[PJM]

My DEAR friends in Christ.

Please assist my understanding of YOUR understanding in rergards to GRACE

For those of you who teach faith THROUGH grace…

If this is a fondational beleive [as we catholics too believe]

WHY then do you not believe and accept the Seven sacraments ALL Instituted By Christ to provide GRACE?

Acts.18: 27 “And when he wished to cross to Acha’ia, the brethren encouraged him, and wrote to the disciples to receive him. When he arrived, he greatly helped those who through grace had believed”,

Eph.2; 8 "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God "–

God Continued Blessings,
Patrick

 

[Red_Sox_1]

Baha’u’llah, the promised one of all religions and non-religions, declares that if the Grace of God were to be withheld for less than the briefest of moments, then the Justice of God would obliterate all of creation to nothingness and non-existence.

 

[cguerber]

Grace is a free gift of God. It’s not something earned or merited. We can not ‘do’ anything to gain God’s grace. It’s a gift. As you stated in your post mentioning Ephesians;

Ephesians 2:8

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
Also…

Romans 11:6

6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

Works doesn’t mean through the ‘law’ of the OT. Works is any action on our part.

God Bless,
CG

 

[believerdoc]

My DEAR friends in Christ.

Please assist my understanding of YOUR understanding in rergards to GRACE

For those of you who teach faith THROUGH grace…

If this is a fondational beleive [as we catholics too believe]

WHY then do you not believe and accept the Seven sacraments ALL Instituted By Christ to provide GRACE?

Acts.18: 27 “And when he wished to cross to Acha’ia, the brethren encouraged him, and wrote to the disciples to receive him. When he arrived, he greatly helped those who through grace had believed”,

Eph.2; 8 "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God "–

God Continued Blessings,
Patrick

We do not accept 7 sacraments because Jesus only directly instituted 2 ordinances; Holy Communion and Baptism. Grace is a gift freely given; there is nothing you can do to deserve it and nothing you can do to earn it. All that is necessary on your part is to accept that gift.

 

[Traverse]

WHY then do you not believe and accept the Seven sacraments ALL Instituted By Christ to provide GRACE?

What does an understanding of grace have to do with the sacraments of the catholic church, many of which are never actually specified by Christ Himself?

 

[adf417]

What does an understanding of grace have to do with the sacraments of the catholic church, many of which are never actually specified by Christ Himself?

The poster just before you, believerdoc, said it best…

All that is necessary on your part is to accept that gift.

Peace!!!

 

[benjohnson]

The Lutheran definition of Sacrement is simply a bit more strict than the Catholic definition.

From the Apology of the Augsburg Confession - bolded for emphasis.

*If we define the sacraments as rites, which have the command of God and to which the promise of grace has been added, it is easy to determine what the sacraments are, properly speaking.

For humanly instituted rites are not sacraments, properly speaking, because human beings do not have the authority to promise grace. Therefore signs instituted without the command of God are not sure signs of grace, even though they perhaps serve to teach or admonish the common folk.*

 

[rinnie]

What does an understanding of grace have to do with the sacraments of the catholic church, many of which are never actually specified by Christ Himself?

Lets see so he never said to be Baptised? John 3:5
He never said to Confess your sins? Confession John 20:25
He never had the laying of hands ? Holy Orders acts 8:17 2 tim 1:6
marriage Eph 5:31-2
Confirmation titus 3:5
Anointing of the sick James 5:15
Holy Communion John 6

 

[rinnie]

We do not accept 7 sacraments because Jesus only directly instituted 2 ordinances; Holy Communion and Baptism. Grace is a gift freely given; there is nothing you can do to deserve it and nothing you can do to earn it. All that is necessary on your part is to accept that gift.

Oh really. So all you have to do is accept it. You don’t have to use it huh?

Grace is a free gift from God. You can accept it and use it. or refuse to use it and lose it.

With the grace of God you are given faith, with faith you are to do good works. Faith without works are fruitless.

 

[SteveVH]

What does an understanding of grace have to do with the sacraments of the catholic church, many of which are never actually specified by Christ Himself?

And which do you believe were "never actually specified by Christ Himself "?

 

[SteveVH]

The Lutheran definition of Sacrement is simply a bit more strict than the Catholic definition.

From the Apology of the Augsburg Confession - bolded for emphasis.

If we define the sacraments as rites, which have the command of God and to which the promise of grace has been added, it is easy to determine what the sacraments are, properly speaking.

For humanly instituted rites are not sacraments, properly speaking, because human beings do not have the authority to promise grace. Therefore signs instituted without the command of God are not sure signs of grace, even though they perhaps serve to teach or admonish the common folk.

So Ben, what is actually being said here? Is this an implication that the Catholic Church has man-made “rites” which it calls sacraments, which are actually not sacraments?

 

[benjohnson]

So Ben, what is actually being said here? Is this an implication that the Catholic Church has man-made “rites” which it calls sacraments, which are actually not sacraments?

yes… but…

No Lutheran should really get upset that the Catholics give marriage the status of a Sacrament. But Lutherans would point out that the participants of the marriage have the same amount of grace before and after they go through the ceremony. *

So… With a Lutheran understanding - marriage is commended by God to us, but it’s not a means of grace, therefore it’s a good and holy rite but not a sacrament.

Lutherans understand our definitions to include the Sacraments of Baptism, Holy Communion and Confession/Absolution.

• The marriage ceremony is an appendix to a Devine Service where we would have Holy Communion, but the marriage ceremony itself is what we’re referring to.

 

[SteveVH]

yes… but…

No Lutheran should really get upset that the Catholics give marriage the status of a Sacrament. But Lutherans would point out that the participants of the marriage have the same amount of grace before and after they go through the ceremony. * So… With a Lutheran understanding - marriage is commended by God to us, but it’s not a means of grace, therefore it’s a good and holy rite but not a sacrament.

Lutherans understand our definitions to include the Sacraments of Baptism, Holy Communion and Confession/Absolution.

Really? How do arrive at such a conclusion? You state this as if it is just a fact? Do you not believe that God pours out additional grace upon those who enter into this holy state which is a foreshadowing of our relationship with Christ? I am really surprised by this statement.

 

[steido01]

So Ben, what is actually being said here? Is this an implication that the Catholic Church has man-made “rites” which it calls sacraments, which are actually not sacraments?

Ja und nein. Jein. As Ben explained, we Lutherans define sacraments a bit differently from Rome. To better understand the Lutheran position, please read this excerpt from the Defense of the Augsburg Confession (it’s brief and simple, I promise):
bookofconcord.org/defense_12_sacraments.php

I should also note that the other rites of the Church (Confirmation, Ordination, Anointing of the Sick, Marriage), are understood by some Lutherans to be a deepening of the faith planted in Baptism. Understood this way, it is possible to speak of these rites as having a sacramental quality, though they do not impart grace of themselves. I’m not sure this kind of language is particularly helpful to the average layperson (and I personally avoid speaking of the other rites in this way specifically to avoid confusion), but perhaps this is the kind of understanding necessary to reunite Wittenberg to Rome.

 

[steido01]

Really? How do arrive at such a conclusion? You state this as if it is just a fact? Do you not believe that God pours out additional grace upon those who enter into this holy state which is a foreshadowing of our relationship with Christ? I am really surprised by this statement.

Again, it’s a question of definition:

Lastly, if among the Sacraments all things ought to be numbered which have God’s command, and to which promises have been added, why do we not add prayer, which most truly can be called a sacrament? For it has both God’s command and very many promises; and if placed among the Sacraments, as though in a more eminent place, it would invite men to pray. Alms could also be reckoned here, and likewise afflictions, which are, even themselves signs, to which God has added promises. But let us omit these things. For no prudent man will strive greatly concerning the number or the term, if only those objects still be retained which have God’s command and promises.

bookofconcord.org/defense_12_sacraments.php

 

[benjohnson]

Do you not believe that God pours out additional grace upon those who enter into this holy state which is a foreshadowing of our relationship with Christ? I am really surprised by this statement.

Perhaps He does!

But we haven’t been given clear assurances that this happens, so we don’t say that it does.

Like I said too, a married couple does leave with more Grace because the vows are exchanged in the context of a Divine Service with Holy Communion.

Lutherans would also caution the Bride and Groom that making vows before God is a dangerous thing!
When you make a vow to God, do not delay to pay it;
For He has no pleasure in fools.
Pay what you have vowed—
Better not to vow than to vow and not pay.
*

 

[SteveVH]

Perhaps He does!

But we haven’t been given clear assurances that this happens, so we don’t say that it does.

Like I said too, a married couple does leave with more Grace because the vows are exchanged in the context of a Divine Service with Holy Communion.

Lutherans would also caution the Bride and Groom that making vows before God is a dangerous thing!
When you make a vow to God, do not delay to pay it;
For He has no pleasure in fools.
Pay what you have vowed—
Better not to vow than to vow and not pay.
*

Well, my only answer is that the same Church that determined the canon of Scripture, in which it gives clear assurance that this is the inerrant word of God, also gives clear assurance that Matrimony is a sacrament instituted by Christ. One cannot pick up one and discard the other as both come from the same authority.

 

[PJM]

=Red_Sox_1;11381683]Baha’u’llah, the promised one of all religions and non-religions, declares that if the Grace of God were to be withheld for less than the briefest of moments, then the Justice of God would obliterate all of creation to nothingness and non-existence.

For a faith I have never heard of that’s a GREAT answer!

So my friend; why is it you don’t believe in One True “God”?

Bless you,
Patrick

 

[PJM]

=cguerber;11381876]Grace is a free gift of God. It’s not something earned or merited. We can not ‘do’ anything to gain God’s grace. It’s a gift. As you stated in your post mentioning Ephesians;

Ephesians 2:8

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
Also…

Romans 11:6 “And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.”

Works doesn’t mean through the ‘law’ of the OT. Works is any action on our part.

God Bless,
CG

Thanks for your reply

Grace has many forms
http://www.therealpresence.org/cgi-bin/getdefinition.pl

… “The essence of grace, properly so called, is its gratuity, since no creature has a right to the beatific vision, and its finality or purpose is to lead one to eternal life. (Etym. Latin gratia, favor; a gift freely given.) See also ACTUAL GRACE, EFFICACIOUS GRACE, HABITUAL GRACE, JUSTIFYING GRACE, SACRAMENTAL GRACE, SANCTIFYING GRACE, SUFFICIENT GRACE” Fr. Hardon’s Catholic dict

R: Rom. 11:6 EACH of the below passages specify “works of the [OT] law”

Romans 3:20

Romans 3:28

Galatians 2:16

Galatians 3:2

Galatians 3:5

Galatians 3:10

Romans 3:27

Galatians 5:19

IF ALL forms of grace are unmerited then why did Christ Institute he sacraments? certainly Grace is always a FRE Gift from God; however what’s to prevent Him from instituting a mannerwhereby man can access God’s Grace by and through the sacraments?

We agree that salvation is “not accomplished by pourselves”; BUT it is FAR more conditional than just “faith through grace.”

Jn. 3:5 “Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God”

Mt. 19: 17 …“But if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments”

Acts 5:32 “And we are witnesses of these things and the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to all that obey him”

Again thank you and God Bless,
Patrick

 

[PJM]

=believerdoc;11382034]We do not accept 7 sacraments because Jesus only directly instituted 2 ordinances; Holy Communion and Baptism. Grace is a gift freely given; there is nothing you can do to deserve it and nothing you can do to earn it. All that is necessary on your part is to accept that gift.

Thank you for sharing that.
However it’s not really biblical.

What is not being rightly understood is [1] Mt. 1:18-19 & [2] Jn. 17: 18 & [3] Mt. 28: 18-20

"And I [GOD] say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock [YOU] I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. [19] And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

This Power Given to “bind and loose” was cammon terminology at that time and place for UNLIMITED POWERS of Governance; making laws ect.

JESUS HANDS ON HIS ACTUAL GODLY POWERS TO PETER AND THE APOSTLES AND THROUGH THEM TO TODAYS CC:

Jn.17:18 “As thou hast sent me into the world, I also have sent them into the world”. REPEATED again in Jn. 20:21-22

Mt. 28: 18-20 "And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. [MEANS I AM PASSING IT ON TO YOU] Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days,

Each of the seven Sacraments were instituted by Christ. Four explicitly and three, implicitly.** So LET’S REVIEW THE BIBLICAL FACTS.**

1. Baptism; explicitly: John 3:5 “
2. Confirmation: explicitly: John 20:19-22 “
3. Confession / Reconciliation / Penance: explicitly John 20:19- 23
4. Eucharist: The real Presence: explicitly Matthew 26: 26-28; MARK 14: 22-24;Luke 22: 19-21; Paul 1 Cor.11: 23-29; John from Chapter 6: 47-57
5. Marriage: implicitly John 2: 1-9; This is further augmented by Mark 10: 1-9
6. Holy Orders/The catholic priesthood implicitly
   The evidence begins when Jesus gives the Keys to the kingdom of heaven to Peter in Mt. 16:15-19 and is extended to the others in Mt. 18:18 John 17: 17-20 “The precise instant though is in John 20:21-22 “Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.” Here Jesus transfers His actual Powers and Authority as God to His new CC. And Formally Ordains the catholic Priesthood.
7. The “Last Rites” the final anointing implicit Matt. 10:1”And he called to him his twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every disease and every infirmity” & James 5: 13-15

So what we catholics do is biblical:thumbsup:

God Bless you!
Patrick