For People Who Think

[LaMar]

This might be of interest to Sister Amy, Brother Karamazov, and other open-minded Muslims and non-Muslims.

forpeoplewhothink.org/

Dr. Al-Corentini is apparently Irshad Manji’s spiritual adviser. He has degrees in divinity and social science from various secular universities, and degrees in Islamic jurisprudence from Brandeis. He’s currently a professor of religion at SDSU (sort of a funny irony. Those who know the party culture of San Diego State will probably be shocked to hear there’s any serious religion department there, but anyway…)

Here’s what Dr. Al-Corentini says about indulging in meaningless arguments with those who might disparage the others’ faiths (whatever faiths those might be).

we do the Muslim thing by saying “peace” and “to you be your way, and to me mine.” We seek to convert no one, but to simply answer that which is in line with seeking to understand the finer points of Islam, and to promote harmonious pluralism. And we rely on the Creator for our guidance.

On the whole, this is an outstanding web page for anyone who is looking for an introduction to authentic Islamic values and practices, with a wide and diverse variety of opinions (as befits a group of Muslims, they don’t all agree on everything) on different subjects, both secular and religious.

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

To deny Jesus as the Son of God is - well - understandable. It takes Christian faith to believe Jesus is the Son of God.

But to deny Jesus died on the Cross is not acceptable. It’s a fact of history. If we are going to deny history, we may as well pack up and give it all away.

 

[IvanKaramozov]

To deny Jesus as the Son of God is - well - understandable. It takes Christian faith to believe Jesus is the Son of God.

But to deny Jesus died on the Cross is not acceptable. It’s a fact of history. If we are going to deny history, we may as well pack up and give it all away.

Well, firstly I think the Muslim account get’s them out of that if it were historical fact, however I don’t think it’s fair to say Christ being crucified is fact

 

[AgnosTheist]

I don’t think it’s fair to say Christ being crucified is fact

Why not?

 

[hamba2han]

Jesus (pbuh) being crucified some 2000 years ago is as “factual” as David Copperfield making the Statue of Liberty dissapear some 25 years ago.

Why do I say this?.. Because there were quite a number of “eye-witnesses” at both of those events.

 

[dolphinlove]

Jesus (pbuh) being crucified some 2000 years ago is as “factual” as David Copperfield making the Statue of Liberty dissapear some 25 years ago.

Why do I say this?.. Because there were quite a number of “eye-witnesses” at both of those events.

So are you saying Jesus was deceptive?
Remember, you think of him as a prophet.
If so, you may agree that he was not the only ‘prophet’ to lie in Islam then…

In saying that, i dont agree the Jesus you know is the Jesus i know, therefore, i feel im not mocking Jesus.

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

Jesus (pbuh) being crucified some 2000 years ago is as “factual” as David Copperfield making the Statue of Liberty dissapear some 25 years ago.

Why do I say this?.. Because there were quite a number of “eye-witnesses” at both of those events.

David Copperfield and his friends will all admit that Copperfield is an illusionist.

What a stupid thing to suggest that Jesus was an illusionist. Even when He walked on water nobody suggested it was just an illusion.

Who do you suppose was the first person in history to teach that Jesus wasn’t crucified?

 

[kalt]

Jesus (pbuh) being crucified some 2000 years ago is as “factual” as David Copperfield making the Statue of Liberty dissapear some 25 years ago.

Why do I say this?.. Because there were quite a number of “eye-witnesses” at both of those events.

Except that the Statue of Liberty didn’t dissapear, no one claimed that it did, and no one believed that it did. David Copperfield bills himself as a magician or an illusionist. He doesn’t bill himself as a “disappearist”. There is no claim that the Statue really disappeared. The trick is to make it appear as if it disappeared.

If you want to say that Jesus’ rising isn’t an historic fact, well now you have a case.

Or maybe you really do believe that Christ was seen after his death, and you’re trying to explain that away by saying that he wasn’t really dead? It sounds as if you accept that Jesus did “rise” on the 3rd day, but in trying to figure out how, you’ve decided that he must not have been dead in the first place. Is it likely that in the days before anti-biotics someone could survive a terrible scourging, crucifixion, stabbing, and laying in a tomb uncared for medically, without food or water, and rise on the 3rd day, apparently in good enough shape to travel a good distance on foot unaided? And no one on the way said, “My God! You look like you’ve been run over by a truck. What the Hell happened to you.” ?

 

[AgnosTheist]

Jesus (pbuh) being crucified some 2000 years ago is as “factual” as David Copperfield making the Statue of Liberty dissapear some 25 years ago.

Why do I say this?.. Because there were quite a number of “eye-witnesses” at both of those events.

You are practically accusing Jesus as a deciever.

If you cant trust Jesus, why would you trust Mohammad?

 

[hamba2han]

Except that the Statue of Liberty didn’t dissapear, no one claimed that it did, and no one believed that it did. David Copperfield bills himself as a magician or an illusionist. He doesn’t bill himself as a “disappearist”. There is no claim that the Statue really disappeared. The trick is to make it appear as if it disappeared.

David Copperfield himself said at the time that he will make the Statue of Liberty dissapear by making it pass into another dimension and I personally know quite a few people who believed this was what happened to it when it seemingly vanished.

If you want to say that Jesus’ rising isn’t an historic fact, well now you have a case.

Or maybe you really do believe that Christ was seen after his death, and you’re trying to explain that away by saying that he wasn’t really dead? It sounds as if you accept that Jesus did “rise” on the 3rd day, but in trying to figure out how, you’ve decided that he must not have been dead in the first place. Is it likely that in the days before anti-biotics someone could survive a terrible scourging, crucifixion, stabbing, and laying in a tomb uncared for medically, without food or water, and rise on the 3rd day, apparently in good enough shape to travel a good distance on foot unaided? And no one on the way said, “My God! You look like you’ve been run over by a truck. What the Hell happened to you.” ?

That they said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah”;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:- … Al-Qur’an, 004.157

How do Christians know for sure that it was really Jesus who was put on the cross?.. Let me guess, they were many eye-witnesses present at the time, correct?

Like I mentioned, there were also many eye-witnesses present when David Copperfield seemingly made the Statue of Liberty vanish and so going by this argument, David Copperfield too might be having divine powers.

 

[Believe_85]

Didn’t Mohammed lack any witnesses for most of his “miracles”? What does that do to his creditability?

 

[hamba2han]

Didn’t Mohammed lack any witnesses for most of his “miracles”? What does that do to his creditability?

On the contrary, the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) performed many miracles which were witnessed by many people throughout the 23-year period of his prophet-hood.

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

… How do Christians know for sure that it was really Jesus who was put on the cross?.. Let me guess, they were many eye-witnesses present at the time, correct?..

Don’t be silly.

The Virgin birth, life, death and resurrection of Jesus was foretold by ancient prophets in prophecy.

I find it strange that eye-witness accounts of Jesus are not to be believed, but an account written 600 years later by a non-eye-witness is supposed to be believed.

I find it strange that an eye-witnessed account that fulfills prophecy is not to be believed, but an account that has no prophecy is to be believed.

I find it strange that an account with eye-witnessed miracles is not to be believed, but and account with no eye-witnessed miracles is to be believed.

Tell me again, why should I believe the Qur’an?

On the contrary, the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) performed many miracles which were witnessed by many people throughout the 23-year period of his prophet-hood.

Please, give us a lesson.

 

[LaMar]

Didn’t Mohammed lack any witnesses for most of his “miracles”? What does that do to his creditability?

That’s OK. So does Joseph Smith.

Then again, Jesus lacks any witnesses, period; not only for miracles, but for his entire existence on planet earth, so let’s not be too hard on the Muslims.

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

… Jesus lacks any witnesses, period; not only for miracles, but for his entire existence on planet earth, so let’s not be too hard on the Muslims.

That’s not fair. If Jesus had no witnesses, then it begs the question; How does the Qur’an have confidence that he wasn’t crucified?

This thread is “For People Who Think”. But if we can’t trust our history, we have nothing to think about.

 

[CTA1967]

On the contrary, the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) performed many miracles which were witnessed by many people throughout the 23-year period of his prophet-hood.

Could we have some “proof” of this, please?

 

[LaMar]

That’s not fair. If Jesus had no witnesses, then it begs the question; How does the Qur’an have confidence that he wasn’t crucified?

This thread is “For People Who Think”. But if we can’t trust our history, we have nothing to think about.

The Bible isn’t history. Neither is Al-Qur’an. These are religious documents.

There is evidence that Muhammad existed. If Jesus did exist (and it’s certainly possible, despite the lack of historical evidence) I find the Qur’an account a lot more reasonable.

Qur’an has one single God (not 3 in one, which even the Christians can not coherently explain) with a prophet Jesus (saw) who was badly received. God spared Jesus (and as I understand the story, God substituted some murderer who deserved crucifixion in his place). That’s more in line with a God I could respect.

Ultimately though, if you’re happy as a Christian, this is what matters. You should do what’s right for you, and Muslims do what’s right for them. This is also a Qur’an inspired idea. (no compulsion).

I have no stake in the Christian -vs- Muslim fight. When I get tired of Mormonism, I’ll go dip in a mikveh and continue watching you folks argue it out from the sidelines.

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

Hi LaMar,

Your bias towards Islam is telling.

I think it’s very cute of you to side-step basic issues, such as history, and delving into complicated topics, such as theology.

“For People Who Think”, there is alot of side-stepping going on.

So, Jesus wasn’t crucified - it was just an illusion. What’s next; Jihad is really a spiritual struggle?

 

[dolphinlove]

LaMar,
Have you heard of a thing called the dead sea scrolls?
Also, the fact the Catholic church has maintained its own history for the past 2000 years?

 

[AgnosTheist]

The If Jesus did exist (and it’s certainly possible, despite the lack of historical evidence)

God spared Jesus (and as I understand the story, God substituted some murderer who deserved crucifixion in his place). That’s more in line with a God I could respect.

for somebody who demands too much historical evidence, you blindly dive into that fairytale that jesus was magically subsituted with a criminal.

How could you respect the idea of a god who would lead billions of people into the false belief that jesus was crucified on the cross?

Ultimately though, if you’re happy as a Christian, this is what matters. You should do what’s right for you, and Muslims do what’s right for them. This is also a Qur’an inspired idea. (no compulsion).

“No compulsion” is negotiable in Islam. Like if somebody wants to get out of Islam, muslims are compelled to compel the apostate back into becoming a muslim again. And Islam has no respect for polytheism.