For People Who Think

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I’d love to see Catholic intellectuals deconstruct Islam (or Judaism, or Mormonism) sometime. Maybe it’ll happen someday. I’ll keep hoping. 🙂
Hey you still have ralphinal here. He is one of the most civil, intelligent, sincere and beloved people here. 🙂

yeah he just posted right above me.
 
I know that I have asked this multiple times, and no one has ever answered it clearly. Perhaps it is the unanswerable question. I shall try again.

According to most Muslims (Paar’s sect is an exception), Jesus was not crucified on the cross. Someone else was instead. Jesus did not die on the Cross, but God made it appear to everyone that he did.

Now, if intent is important, we should say that God intended people to think that Jesus died. He made some one else look like him and he allowed it all to unfold. In my little understanding of the world, if you mislead someone WITH THE INTENT to mislead, it makes you a lier, at least in that one case. One who misleads a number of people is a lier on a grand scale, and we can safely call that person a deciever.

Please explain to me how the Muslim view of the crucifixion does not make God a lier and deciever. Please.

And, by the way, the answer “You cannot say that about God.” is not an answer.
See, this is a great question. (I don’t think Agnos Theist went too far, in other words).

I have a couple of ideas of my own, but I’d love to hear a Muslim take an honest crack at this one. Anybody?
 
Really? Where did I go wrong?

Why does the God of Abraham need to impregnate some poor girl, birth himself through her, kill himself and resurrect himself?
Why indeed but a wrong understanding of what took place.
Most of you pat yourselves on the back with the arrogant idea that you have “the one true path of salvation”. By your reckoning, the best God can do is "save"10-15 per cent of his own children.
That is pretty funny coming from a Mormon and Moslem apologist. Are you one of the 144,000? Watch this video and tell me it isn’t compelling and factually accurate. Take your time. Watch it all and turn it up. Talk about faiths that limit the number of ‘saved’.
And of those saved, are they the best portion of humanity? Would I ever even consider of spending eternity with people of the sort as “booklover”, “Versimilitude” and “ibkc”? [LaMar shakes head no]
You’ll get used to us. How could you not love someone with the handle booklover? Her being correct just adds to her beauty.
For the rest, God has created a devil spook, and a place called Hell, so that he can burn and fry the rest of humanity… Nice folks like “Sister Amy” and Richard Dawkins are supposedly going to find that their destination, who I’d much rather end up with.
Sister Amy and Dawkins are ideologically opposed. Dawkins would call her misguided and Amy would call him Kafir.
Did God create the billions of people with the idea that he was going to torture most of them? If so, he’s a sadist and he’s nobody I want to give any respect to on principle. …
You really need to watch that video.
And what about this devil? Why not just kill the devil and be done with the whole business? In the book of Job you see God meeting with the devil in various board-of-directors … in the mythical flood (that never happened). Why not just kill the devil and stop all the trouble he causes?
If you don’t believe anything why do you argue for the Muslim god and his messenger? Your issues are other than Catholic.
None of this Christianity stuff makes any sense at all. … Christianity is such a laughably transparent fraud … could possibly take it seriously. I thank God (if he exists, which I doubt) that I was not born into a Christian family.
If your intelligence is insulted it is not by accusation and I know of no one including myself that has insulted you in a personal way.

Many non-Catholics have no respect for our wafer as some call it, but offense is taken at an accurate if not respectful description of the Mormon revelation. Correct me if I am wrong that you admitted you do not believe Smith did as he said.

Simply put Catholic/Christians claim a fulfillment of the Jewish text without any abrogation of it. Jews shouldn’t be ideologically offended with our view because we have changed nothing of what they still feel as not having been fulfilled. They are welcome to correct me if I am wrong here.

Mormons claim a new testament to be associated with the New Testament. It has little to do with faith that it is unsupported by either the OT or NT or physical fact so personal offense is unwarranted for pointing out inconsistencies with your ideology. Other than the past doctrinal poligimy and racist views Mormonism is generally non-violent and that goes a long way.

The Muslim claim is most bizarre because they offer a complete ideological re-write of the OT and NT while claming to accept all that came before. Logically the time after and error within the Koran is rejected unless you suspend total reality their claim is true that even the Dead Sea scrolls are irrelevant as legitimate support to prove the accuracy of the OT if not the validity.

There is no logical reason not to believe the words and actions of Christ are true as recorded in the Gospels. None. For the same reason I fully accept the Qur’an as exactly what Mohammed said and did. If Muslims accept it, I accept it. Mohammed is among the rank of Joseph Smith and Jim Jones with regard to truthfulness and character with one exception. Mohammed really was visitied by a spirit I am convinced was Satan.

The remaining non-Abrahamic people make no claim on these scriptures (God) one way or another but have totally different and largely non-violent belief systems which is due respect for the non-violence.

What is the difference between your scoffing at my devotion to Mary and my comment about secret golden plates found by Smith? What is the difference between Sister Amy insisting with kindness that an imposter was placed upon the Cross and my question as to why Muslims so highly honor an admitted assassin, thief, and pedophile in Mohammed?

The difference is my ideology does not infringe upon you or Sister Amy’s ideology in anyway and the offense taken at legitimate accepted facts by your own faiths and ideologies is dismissed as arrogance and/or ignorance. Besides that, Islam poses a real threat to humanity due to its origin and only Truth, not war will avert it.
 
While I suspect Mary is probably about as real as Jesus (not, in other words) I do feel sorry for her. She had a pretty rough time of things.
You use a hypothesis to support another? You feel sorry for someone about whose historic reality you have doubts? Besides, you previously identified Mary as “a poor girl” with regard to her pregnancy, not to “a pretty rough time of things she had”.
For that matter, Muhammad (saw) in the Qur’an made it clear that one didn’t have to be a Muslim to end up in paradise. Probably why he didn’t bother Khadija or Maryam the Copt (two of his wives, who remained non-Muslims their whole lives) to convert…
Consider the following verses inserted by Mohammad’s scribes into his Koran:

Surah 3:19. Lo! **religion with Allah **(is) the Surrender (to His Will and Guidance).

Surah3: 85. And whoso seeketh as religion other than the Surrender (to Allah) it will not be accepted from him, and he will be a loser in the Hereafter.

(Surrender is directly associated with ISLAM in Arabic language and Islamic theology! The verses above mean that Islam is endorsed by Allah as the only true religion.

Surah 30:30. So set thy purpose (O Muhammad) for religion as a man by nature upright - the nature (framed) of Allah, in which He hath created man. There is no altering (the laws of) Allah’s creation. That is the right religion, but most men know not . (The Koran asserts that everyone is born a Muslim!)

Surah 61: 9 . He it is Who hath sent His messenger with the guidance and the religion of truth, that He may make it conqueror of all religion however much idolaters may be averse.

Surah 9: 29. Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.

Surah 9:33 He it is Who hath sent His messenger with the guidance and the Religion of Truth, that He may cause it to prevail over all religion, however much the idolaters may be averse.
 
I know that I have asked this multiple times, and no one has ever answered it clearly. Perhaps it is the unanswerable question. I shall try again.

According to most Muslims (Paar’s sect is an exception), Jesus was not crucified on the cross. Someone else was instead. Jesus did not die on the Cross, but God made it appear to everyone that he did.

Now, if intent is important, we should say that God intended people to think that Jesus died. He made some one else look like him and he allowed it all to unfold. In my little understanding of the world, if you mislead someone WITH THE INTENT to mislead, it makes you a lier, at least in that one case. One who misleads a number of people is a lier on a grand scale, and we can safely call that person a deciever.

Please explain to me how the Muslim view of the crucifixion does not make God a lier and deciever. Please.

And, by the way, the answer “You cannot say that about God.” is not an answer.
If someone’s life is in danger, would it be morally wrong for him to disguise himself or use camouflage in order to escape from his enemies who are out to kill him?

Is the use of disguise or camouflage in times of conflict and mortal danger in order to save one’s own life considered a morally reprehensible act of dishonesty and deceit?

If the answer is ‘NO’, then why is it such an issue for Christians if God would help his prophets escape in situations of such great danger and harm to themselves from their enemies in this manner??

Furthermore, Jesus (pbuh) is certainly not the only prophet who Allah helped escape from his mortal enemies, the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) too escaped death on numerous such occasions with Allah’s help.
 
If someone’s life is in danger, would it be morally wrong for him to disguise himself or use camouflage in order to escape from his enemies who are out to kill him?

Is the use of disguise or camouflage in times of conflict and mortal danger in order to save one’s own life considered a morally reprehensible act of dishonesty and deceit?

If the answer is ‘NO’, then why is it such an issue for Christians if God would help his prophets escape in situations of such great danger and harm to themselves from their enemies in this manner??

Furthermore, Jesus (pbuh) is certainly not the only prophet who Allah helped escape from his mortal enemies, the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) too escaped death on numerous such occasions with Allah’s help.
I appreciate your well written answer.

God, as understood in Islam, seems to be a character who takes a hands-off approach in regards to humanity, as far as He conceivably can. When He intervenes, He does so in the least intrusive way possible.

Your explanation is consistent with the rest of the revelation, as I understand it.
 
Your explanation is consistent with the rest of the revelation, as I understand it.
And yet it does not answer the question:

Please explain to me how the Muslim view of the crucifixion does not make God a lier and deciever. Please.
 
Furthermore, Jesus (pbuh) is certainly not the only prophet who Allah helped escape from his mortal enemies, the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) too escaped death on numerous such occasions with Allah’s help.
Didn’t Mohammed tell someone to lie in his bed/house pretending to be him so he could escape? allah had nothing to do with Mohammeds willingness to let others be in danger for him.

While Mohammed was hiding in the cave and a spider made a web across the opening, Bekr hurt his finger. What did allah do- send the spider?

allah didn’t prevent Mohammed from lossing some teeth in a battle and he got mad at the Muslims who ran away when they were losing a fight.
 
If someone’s life is in danger, would it be morally wrong for him to disguise himself or use camouflage in order to escape from his enemies who are out to kill him?

Is the use of disguise or camouflage in times of conflict and mortal danger in order to save one’s own life considered a morally reprehensible act of dishonesty and deceit?

If the answer is ‘NO’, then why is it such an issue for Christians if God would help his prophets escape in situations of such great danger and harm to themselves from their enemies in this manner??

Furthermore, Jesus (pbuh) is certainly not the only prophet who Allah helped escape from his mortal enemies, the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) too escaped death on numerous such occasions with Allah’s help.
I fully understand the logic and I appriciate the answer. I do find a hole in the logic, however. If God is truly all-powerful, why resort to a trick? Why not pull him out, spirit him off, send an Angel down? Why not show some of the power to the world so that, like Egypt in the time of Moses, they would KNOW that He is God?

Man has to resort to disguises and camoflage. God does not.
 
This might be of interest to Sister Amy, Brother Karamazov, and other open-minded Muslims and non-Muslims.

forpeoplewhothink.org/

Dr. Al-Corentini is apparently Irshad Manji’s spiritual adviser. He has degrees in divinity and social science from various secular universities, and degrees in Islamic jurisprudence from Brandeis. He’s currently a professor of religion at SDSU (sort of a funny irony. Those who know the party culture of San Diego State will probably be shocked to hear there’s any serious religion department there, but anyway…)

Here’s what Dr. Al-Corentini says about indulging in meaningless arguments with those who might disparage the others’ faiths (whatever faiths those might be).

On the whole, this is an outstanding web page for anyone who is looking for an introduction to authentic Islamic values and practices, with a wide and diverse variety of opinions (as befits a group of Muslims, they don’t all agree on everything) on different subjects, both secular and religious.
I read five pages of replies in this thread and hardly any about the original post. Sorry I’m just now getting into it… and for now I’ll try to abstain from answering any off-topic questions, like about Jesus (pbuh).

LaMar, I wonder what it is about this site which makes you think that it is ‘authentic Islam?’

I obviously haven’t reviewed all the articles on it, but I know a few of the writers are known to espouse opinions which are contradictory to scholarly opinions, even scholarly consensus. For example, there is an article saying it is not mandatory for a woman to cover her head/hair, when in fact there is no disagreement on this issue among scholars, that it is mandatory.

Most of the problems I noticed are on the issue of women…

I would say islamonline.net is a little more orthodox and ‘authentic’ as it were.
 
LaMar, I wonder what it is about this site which makes you think that it is ‘authentic Islam?’
Well, I’m a beginner to the study of Islam. Not interested in converting, mind you, just looking to open my mind and become more tolerant.

I’m planning on sitting in on a friday prayer service tomorrow afternoon. Good timing, in that my vacation will end next monday.

Thanks for the islamonline.net reference. I’ve been there too, and liked that one also.

And thanks for being the first person to offer any sort of relevant reply or criticism. (LOL!)

Cheers,

LaMar
 
For example, there is an article saying it is not mandatory for a woman to cover her head/hair, when in fact there is no disagreement on this issue among scholars, that it is mandatory.
for moderate muslims the head cover is not mandatory. what do you think about those muslims? or arent they real muslims? 🤷
 
Well, I’m a beginner to the study of Islam. Not interested in converting, mind you, just looking to open my mind and become more tolerant.

I’m planning on sitting in on a friday prayer service tomorrow afternoon. Good timing, in that my vacation will end next monday.
Hey let me know how it goes! If you want any tips on what to expect, let me know. I think it’s great for people to go, so they see what the imams are actually preaching. That alone would undoubtedly shock (and calm) many of the anti-Islam voices here. Keep an eye out for FBI though. :cool:
Thanks for the islamonline.net reference. I’ve been there too, and liked that one also.
And thanks for being the first person to offer any sort of relevant reply or criticism. (LOL!)
My pleasure!
 
for moderate muslims the head cover is not mandatory. what do you think about those muslims? or arent they real muslims? 🤷
Tell me what a moderate Muslim is.

Can you be “moderately Muslim?” Or is it like being moderately pregnant?

Islam on the other hand is the way of moderation. And Islam, according to the consensus of scholars, dictates head covering for Muslim women, whether they are “moderate” or not.
 
If someone’s life is in danger, would it be morally wrong for him to disguise himself or use camouflage in order to escape from his enemies who are out to kill him?
Logical fallacy of faulty comparison! What we Christians judge and criticise is NOT human beings who resort to camouflage in order to escape death, but the god of the Koran, who brings about a deceptive miracle to save his messenger from the hands of his enemies. The God of the Koran, who is believed to be honest and omnipotent, cannot find another way of saving his beloved prophet Jesus than deceiving his adversaries. I would ask you to stop perverting our point: there is nothing wrong with the idea that God saves His beloved ones from death or evil. Nevertheless, it is completely wrong to assume that God will need an illusion to save his prophets from death.

More to the point, the God of the Koran can do absolutely nothing to abolish the historical reality of the crucifixion. Since Mohammad’s scribes could not take the cross out of Jesus’ life, they attempted to take Jesus off the cross through a theory of substitution. This is why the Koran cannot deny the occurrence of crucifixion altogether in Jesus’ life story, but relegates the denial to the identity of the person on the cross after formally endorsing the event as a fact.
Is the use of disguise or camouflage in times of conflict and mortal danger in order to save one’s own life considered a morally reprehensible act of dishonesty and deceit?
The point of our debate is NOT HUMANS that naturally resort to deceit and tell lies to save their lives in times of conflict and mortal danger, but GOD, who has no limits and therefore never practices fraud unlike humans. Honest humans tell lies on a few occasions and remain honest because their so-called deceitful acts or words naturally result from their lack of other means of salvation and their weaknesses. However, God has no weaknesses and nothing can intimidate God and lead him to deceit.

In the Koran it is not Jesus that desperately needs a camouflage or disguise to escape death, but Allah Himself and he does it through a miracle!!!
If the answer is ‘NO’, then why is it such an issue for Christians if God would help his prophets escape in situations of such great danger and harm to themselves from their enemies in this manner??
Do you also believe that God does tell lies because He is omnipotent???
Furthermore, Jesus (pbuh) is certainly not the only prophet who Allah helped escape from his mortal enemies, the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) too escaped death on numerous such occasions with Allah’s help.
The Koran does not relate any particular incident of Mohammad’s rescue from death or from his enemies through Allah’s intervention. The only detailed narrative in the Koran concerning a prophet’s salvation from danger by Allah’s miracle has Abraham as the main character. Nevertheless, in the story of Abraham’s salvation from death and his enemies neither illusion nor deception is involved. In short, the Koran attributes deceit to Allah only while recounting the story of Jesus’ crucifixion due to the reasons I have already stated above.
 
Many Jews who believe in an afterlife have a similar view, that we’re judged on deeds, rather than what mythology we adhere to.

The Roman Catholic Church is really in the minority on that score.
I know I’m theistgal-come-lately in this thread, so I apologize, but I just had to respond to this one – because it’s kind of amusing that you criticize the Roman Catholic Church for not saying we’re “judged on deeds”, while in other threads (and all over the Internet), it’s criticized for saying exactly the opposite! :rolleyes:
 
Tell me what a moderate Muslim is.
a muslim who thinks that head cover is optional
a muslim who thinks that domestic violence is not islamic under any circumstances
a muslim who thinks that killing apostates is unislamic under any circumstances
etc, etc etc.
Can you be “moderately Muslim?”
my co-worker says he is. so what do you think about those folks?
Islam on the other hand is the way of moderation. And Islam, according to the consensus of scholars, dictates head covering for Muslim women, whether they are “moderate” or not.
i’m sure you are familiar with the moderate muslim argument against that. i think they are more logical.
 
a muslim who thinks that head cover is optional
a muslim who thinks that domestic violence is not islamic under any circumstances
a muslim who thinks that killing apostates is unislamic under any circumstances
etc, etc etc.
I would call these people “liberal Muslims,” sadly.
 
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