For People Who Think

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Sister_Amy said:
In fact this isn’t sugarcoating anything, merely explaining it in the proper context. You are taking it out of the proper context, which I have restored with new formatting to the same text.

Actually it didn’t, I’m amused to tell you. Some of it came from scholarly opinions, the opinions of Sahaba and Tabi’een. 🙂 Nice try though.
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Doesn’t change anything! It still states that a man can beat his wife!

Vickie
 
Booklover said:
A man should never, ever, hit his wife! Period!

Vickie
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Answer the question.

Can you beat me without hurting me?

Is it possible for you to hit me, without it hurting?

And can you still call it hitting if it doesn’t hurt?
 
Sister_Amy said:
And what exactly would you want to do at the Ka’ba anyway? You can visit any mosque in the world, but this one place is ONLY for the worship of God.
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LOL! Tell that to LaMar.
Sister_Amy said:
Will you give it a rest already? Either explain yourself what happened, since you’re the one who brought it up.
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I already explained it. Now its your turn.
Sister_Amy said:
I’m not going to help you out–you’re digging your own hole.
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Im just giving you a chance to justify Mohammad’s action. To help yourself. If you cant help it, then lets both just settle with the fact that Mohammad physically harmed Aisha for the petty reason of trying to tell a petty lie to him. She might not have considered it as ‘wife beating’, but most rational people today would.
 
No, I won’t agree with you. You haven’t provided enough information about the event.

All the same, I’m going to give you an answer which Abu Bakr gave when he was asked about Muhammad’s night journey and ascension. He said that if Muhammad said it, then he (Abu Bakr) believed it.

I believe both 'Aisha’s accounts, that the situation in question is not beating at all, and it doesn’t give me the slightest pause regarding my faith or the behavior of my Prophet, may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him.
 
It’s amusing to see you presume that I would want to take part in the “real presence”. Cannibalism has no appeal to me, sorry. The whole transubstantiation myth sounds quite sinister, almost like black magic. Drinking the blood and eating the flesh of a dead human being isn’t something I’d ever do, so you’re welcome to “feast” alone. LOL!
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It is either a myth or it is not. You cannot attack it for being both. Either it is a myth and therefore not true or we are really feasting on all that He is; Blood, Body, Soul and Divinity.

BTW, for someone who tries to portray themselves as being so tolerant and accepting of other faiths and their beliefs, you sure went a long why in showing your true colors with this post… Very interesting.

God bless
 
Sister Amy suggests Abu Bakr is a reliable and worthy source to support Mohammed at her expense. He is Aisha’s father that betrothed her at 6 years old to allah’s messenger. 7th century arraigned marriages are not so different than those of today where it still happens with regularity and like in the 7th century this should give rational thinking people pause to consider the type of individual it is providing such testimony. It is bad enough girls as young as 13 and 14 are married off without consent today, but in any time anything under 10 is a social taboo for obvious reasons.

To quibble about a thumping on the chest to his child bride from a man who assassinated those who ridiculed him in public before he conquered Mecca, when he conquered it is twisted. How did allah benefit in their vengeful death? Why give any rules for beating at all?

Aisha, who played with dolls and received a special revelation from allah to prove she did not have an affair with a Muslim soldier during a raid away from home. The same girl who told the messenger of allah certain revelations make women like dogs, but then became the ‘mother of believers’ after Mohammed’s death when her dad violently put down the Great Apostasy rebellion before he died.

How an obviously intelligent and rational person Sister Amy appears to be supports much less admire a man like Mohammed is bewildering. There is not enough nuance in words like ‘fight’, ‘kill’, or ‘subdue’ to mean anything other than what they are and the rare word of compassion and equality is reserved for Muslims only except for maybe a single verse. The weight of aggression is overwhelming that of tolerance in the Koran and Islamic history.

From the flowery script and poetic beauty of rhythmic chants of classical Arabic I have to tell you; all the lipstick in the world can’t make his militant ideology sublime as Amy makes it.
 
LaMar said:
That’s OK. So does Joseph Smith.

Then again, Jesus lacks any witnesses, period; not only for miracles, but for his entire existence on planet earth, so let’s not be too hard on the Muslims.
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That is assuming the cynical atheistic perspective. You have to ignore the fact of the beginnings of Christianity. We can claim that anyone within history lacks historical witnesses using this technique.
 
Sister_Amy said:
Answer the question.

Can you beat me without hurting me?

Is it possible for you to hit me, without it hurting?

And can you still call it hitting if it doesn’t hurt?
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Ill answer this for Vickie,
Yes you can ‘hit’ a person playfully and not hurt them, but to ‘hit’ a person to teach them a lesson, this is a different kettle of fish.

To actually think a person would ‘hit’ a person to dicipline them, and ‘hit’ them without any force, is quite illogical. If you have a husband and his wife kept disobeying him and it came to the time that he had no alternative but to ‘hit’ her, do you think he would be pretty annoyed with his wife by this stage and have anger dwelling inside of him? Have you seen a person hit a person out of anger? Do you think a person that has anger in them would be in a logical frame of mind to say ‘ok honey, im going to have to hit you, but i promise it wont hurt’
If you hit a person without any force, they would laugh at you and tell you to stop treating them with such disrespect.
The only way a husband would get through to his wife after trying to dicipline her in other ways, wouldnt be with a light ‘touch’ as you claim, it would be more like an actual ‘hit’ to get the message across not to do it again.
I know for my own personal experience, if a person hits me softly, i just brush it off, but, when you get hit hard (i trained in karate for years) you quickly get the message. There is a difference, and i dont think they mean a light tap in the hadiths, i think to get the message across, it means more than that.
 
Sister_Amy said:
What part of my answer wasn’t clear?
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All of it. From your answer I cannot tell whether or not you admit that Mohammad physically harmed Aisha. So please bear with me. Lets take it one step at a time. Did Mohammad hurt Aisha?
 
Sister_Amy said:
What part of my answer wasn’t clear?
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All of it. From your answer I cannot tell whether or not you admit that Mohammad physically harmed Aisha. So please bear with me. Lets take it one step at a time. Did Mohammad hurt Aisha? Yes or No, please. 🙂
 
dolphinlove said:
Ill answer this for Vickie,
Yes you can ‘hit’ a person playfully and not hurt them, but to ‘hit’ a person to teach them a lesson, this is a different kettle of fish.

To actually think a person would ‘hit’ a person to dicipline them, and ‘hit’ them without any force, is quite illogical. If you have a husband and his wife kept disobeying him and it came to the time that he had no alternative but to ‘hit’ her, do you think he would be pretty annoyed with his wife by this stage and have anger dwelling inside of him? Have you seen a person hit a person out of anger? Do you think a person that has anger in them would be in a logical frame of mind to say ‘ok honey, im going to have to hit you, but i promise it wont hurt’
If you hit a person without any force, they would laugh at you and tell you to stop treating them with such disrespect.
The only way a husband would get through to his wife after trying to dicipline her in other ways, wouldnt be with a light ‘touch’ as you claim, it would be more like an actual ‘hit’ to get the message across not to do it again.
I know for my own personal experience, if a person hits me softly, i just brush it off, but, when you get hit hard (i trained in karate for years) you quickly get the message.
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Thank you for answering and taking the question seriously. This is a well thought out post. The point I really want to respond to is your last sentence:
There is a difference, and i dont think they mean a light tap in the hadiths, i think to get the message across, it means more than that.
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Actually, the reason I can tell you that they do mean a light tap is that the hadiths do in fact say so. The man is not allowed to hurt his wife–to hit her so that he leaves a mark, to hit her face (ala Rhett & Scarlet), it’s not allowed. If he is angry, then his recourse isn’t hitting his wife. In fact, the Qur’an’s procedure prevents the act occurring out of anger–those other two steps are not lip service, they are a procedure to make sure that the man is demonstrating to his wife that her behavior is not acceptable through completely non-violent means. And frankly I think that is much more important. Forcing him to go through this procedure prevents that he will have to act out of anger.

And even if he does resort to striking her, he isn’t allowed to hurt her–it is supposed to be a light tap. And the only reason I can say that is we have that condition in hadith as well.
 
AgnosTheist said:
All of it. From your answer I cannot tell whether or not you admit that Mohammad physically harmed Aisha. So please bear with me. Lets take it one step at a time. Did Mohammad hurt Aisha? Yes or No, please. 🙂
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I believe 'Aisha.
 
Aisha, may Allah be pleased with her, said that there is no God worthy to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad (pbuh) is His Messenger.

Do the people who are so fond of quoting some of the other things that she is reported to have said also believe the truth of what she said about Allah and His Messenger (pbuh)?

YES or NO, please?
 
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