For Protestants: 3 Questions

[michaelp]

Fair enough, but you still have to reconcile Paul’s doctrine of justification with your understanding of James’ which is very difficult. At least you have to admit this. Right? If so, I think we can move on to the next step. If you say that it is not difficult, then we don’t need to go any further.

Again, I don’t think I have made any false claims about the canon, but we may have to leave that behind us since it does not contribute to the issue of justification.

BTW: I really appreciate that you all are so willing to engage in discussions about matters of faith. It is hard to find groups who will do this. RCs have always been very strong in the great traditions of the Church. What a great thing this is. I just wish that you all were just a little more open minded. (Then again, I wish that I was more open minded to. We are all slaves to our traditions and how hard it is to honestly discuss them).

 

[jimmy]

michaelp:

I really think you need to reread the sources. Not all of the apocrypha is included sometimes, and other times books such as 1 and 2 Esdras were included. Which way do you go? Again, many of the church fathers Athanasius, Jerome and many others questioned it. At the very least you can say that it was not as solidified as the Jewish canon of the Old Testament. If you cannot admit to that, I don’t think that we are going to get anywhere.

But again, minor issue to me.

It doesn’t matter if 2 bishops did not support the dueteros, they were supported by hundreds of bishops at the councils. The councils did not say what was not scripture, they just said what was scripture. I can find atleast 6 in each of the three councils(Rome, Hippo, Carthage).

Why do you bring up 1 and 2 Esdras? They are both in the current bible.

 

[michaelp]

I really think that it is much more complicated than you are making it out to be. Some would call Esdras by other names, so what I mean then is 3-4 Esdras, or how about Odes or the Songs of Solomon. There is not much uniformity among the Fathers of the Church pre-400, but that does not mean they should not be there. Just something you have to consider.

 

[jimmy]

michaelp:

I really think that it is much more complicated than you are making it out to be. Some would call Esdras by other names, so what I mean then is 3-4 Esdras, or how about Odes or the Songs of Solomon. There is not much uniformity among the Fathers of the Church pre-400, but that does not mean they should not be there. Just something you have to consider.

Actually they are very uniform. They were consistent in most areas. There may be some differences here and there but as a whole they are very consistent.

You are really losing me now, because the “songs of solomon” is the “song of songs”, which is in the current bible. I would also like to see where you get the 3 and 4 Esdras from. I do not see that in the councils.

I see in the council of Rome " Esdras, two books".

In the council of Carthage this is what I see, “two books of Esdras”.

There were only two books of Esdras included in the councils. They are still called Esdras 1 and 2 in the Catholic Douay Rheims bible.

Council of Rome

Now, indeed, we must treat of the divine Scriptures: what the universal Catholic Church accepts and what she must shun.
The list of the Old Testament begins: Genesis, one book; Exodus, one book: Leviticus, one book; Numbers, one book; Deuteronomy, one book; Jesus Nave, one book; of Judges, one book; Ruth, one book; of Kings, four books; Paralipomenon, two books; One Hundred and Fifty Psalms, one book; of Solomon, three books: Proverbs, one book; Ecclesiastes, one book; Canticle of Canticles, one book; likewise, Wisdom, one book; Ecclesiasticus(Sirach), one book; Likewise, the list of the Prophets: Isaiah, one book; Jeremias, one book; along with Cinoth, that is, his Lamentations; Ezechiel, one book; Daniel, one book; Osee, one book; Amos, one book; Micheas, one book; Joel, one book; Abdias, one book; Jonas, one book; Nahum, one book; Habacuc, one book; Sophonias, one book; Aggeus, one book; Zacharias, one book; Malachias, one book. Likewise, the list of histories: Job, one book; Tobias, one book; Esdras, two books; Esther, one book; Judith, one book; of Maccabees, two books.

Council of Hippo

"[It has been decided] that besides the canonical scriptures nothing be read in church under the name of divine Scripture. But the canonical scriptures are
as follows: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua the Son of Nun, Judges, Ruth, the Kings, four books, the Chronicles, two books, Job, the Psalter, the five books of Solomon [Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Songs, Wisdom

, and a portion of the Psalms], the twelve books of the prophets, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, Ezekiel, Tobit, Judith, Esther, Ezra, two books, Maccabees, two books . . ." (Canon 36 [A.D. 393]).

Council of Carthage III

“[It has been decided] that nothing except the canonical scriptures should be read in the Church under the name of the divine scriptures. But the canonical scriptures are: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, Ruth, four books of Kings, Paralipomenon, two books, Job, the Psalter of David, five books of Solomon, twelve books of the prophets, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, Ezekiel, Tobit, Judith, Esther, two books of Esdras, two books of the Maccabees . . .” (Canon 47 [A.D. 397]).

I underlined and made bold the Esdras books so you can see there were only 2.

I made the deutero books blue so you could see them. I said before that Baruch was part of Daniel, I was wrong, Baruch was part of Jeremiah.

 

[Exporter]

The questions were:

Who started the Catholic Church? Catholics say Jesus himself, but if you are protestant you obviously don’t beleive that (I gues you could). So who started it?

When was the Catholic Church founded?

Where was the Catholic Church founded?

Three of you have gotten far away from the questions. You are showing that you have read a few book. That doesn’t answer the question…puh…leeze.

 

[StephiePea]

I’m a recent convert from protestant faith, and I believe fully that Christ founded the church the day he announced that Peter (the rock) would be given the keys of the kingdom, and whatever was bound in heaven, would be bound on earth…
Christ came to establish a new convenant and church, and the bible echos this throughout its teachings.

I think it is OK to ask questions like this if you are sincere, but if you are only looking to mock what the faithful believe, than you are neither being charitable or christ-like…I hope your motives are sincere.

 

[jimmy]

Sorry about that, I got carried away. I will not do it again:banghead:

 

[germys9]

StephiePea:

I’m a recent convert from protestant faith, and I believe fully that Christ founded the church the day he announced that Peter (the rock) would be given the keys of the kingdom, and whatever was bound in heaven, would be bound on earth…
Christ came to establish a new convenant and church, and the bible echos this throughout its teachings.

I think it is OK to ask questions like this if you are sincere, but if you are only looking to mock what the faithful believe, than you are neither being charitable or christ-like…I hope your motives are sincere.

I am not sure what you mean (I am the one who started this thread). I am a catholic who was honestly curious who protestants think started our church. My reasoning was that it is obvious Luther started the Lutheran Church, King Henry VIII the Anglican, Presbyterian from Calvin, Baptist from Smith, Methodist-Wesley, etc… Of course we know that the Catholic Church was started by a man, the Godman Christ. But who do protestants say started our church? That’s all. I was truly just curious. It’s obvious that the Catholic Church goes way back in history, so If not Christ, then who?

 

[TedTimmis]

Hello, I am a Protestant and would like to help.

Jesus Christ founded the Catholic Church.
It began in Acts 2 on the day of Pentecost.
It was founded in Jerusalem.

Protestants believe that all believers in Christ are part of the Catholic Church (since catholic simply means universal and speaks to the invisible body of Christ that is universal in scope).

But, I suspect you mean the Roman Catholic church. When did it began? Officially we would say that it began in 1545 in Trent. We would see that as the time when the Roman Catholic church officially broke away from the Catholic church. This does not mean that Protestants believe that all Roman Catholics are not part of the body of Christ. It simply means that we see this as the time when the Roman Catholic church as an institution broke away from the Body of Christ. I hope that you understand the distinctions.

Very good question. Thanks for your honest inquiry.

Michael