? For Protestants and disunity

[Cat]

I disagree with those who say that Catholics are more concerned about disunity than Protestants.

THINKING Protestants are very concerned.

In 2003, the late Chuck Colson (R.I.P.), a leader among Evangelical Protestants, wrote a book called Being the Body in which he proclaimed the urgent need for Christians to be united in order to defeat the sin that is daily increasing in power throughout the world.

This book is one of the 5 main reasons that I became Catholic–he made the statement and defended it in the book that “There is no such thing as Christianity apart from the Church.”

Much of the book tells stories of Catholic heroes; a lot of pages tell the story of the fall of communism in Europe and St. Pope John Paul II’s pivotal role.

Along with Father Richard John Neuhaus, Mr. Colson founded Evangelicals and Catholics Together. Before his death, he was working to bring the Orthodox Church into this organization (it would have been re-named, obviously!).

The lack of Christian unity is one reason why we now have gay marriage as the legal “norm” and those who oppose it as “extremists” or “haters” here in the U.S.

And it’s NOT all about Jesus. Churches and individuals make Jesus into whoever (intentional small “w”) they want him (intentional small “h”) to be. In some churches, Jesus fully supports homosexuality because after all, he’s (intentional small “h”) about LOVE. :hug3:

Grr.

I do agree with everyone on this thread who points out that the Catholic Church is not unified. I would say that the Catholic Church is fragmented into so many factions that I fear there is no hope. I’m so sorry, everyone. Recent threads in which posters make some anti-Protestant statements is coloring me against the Church at this moment, and even the Mass this weekend failed to help me to climb out of my morass of despair about the State of the Church. So sorry for the negativity in my post–it’s just feelings, and I’ve always warned people to not base their theology on feelings.

I also believe and trust that the Holy Spirit has the power to help people to find their way through the confusion to the Truth about Jesus. We need to rely more on Him and not on traditions, languages, music styles, and personalities.

 

[JMM1957]

So there are “fake Catholics” and there are “real Catholics”. I’m assuming you can’t always tell who is who so you tacitly assent to a kind of “invisible church” teaching, which is considered Protestant.

Really? So what side do you fall on in regard to fake and real Catholics? Or are you not Catholic at all and just like to throw stones?

 

[aidanbradypop]

No by Christians unity I mean you attend a Christian Church in unity-Assembly of God who believes in unity? Which was clear last post. You attend the Assembly of God. Do you not seek salvation there in unity? Why do you attend otherwise if no unity is of need.

So I maintain.

Or you agree with unity of Christians as does the Church. Why do you attend Church?

Gary we are united in Christ. We are even united in Christ with Catholics and Baptist becausewe are the Body and Christ is the Head. If a non believer approached you, would you first tell them about salvation through Jesus Christ or would you first point them to RCIA?

You didn’t answer my question and unity. Do you believe we are untied when we are all under the authority of the RCC?

 

[Adamski]

I strongly believe after talking to completely unchurched people in Seattle and I mean people that have never been to any church in their entire life they would be more likely to seek the Christian faith if there was one option instead of thousands

 

[GaryTaylor]

Gary we are united in Christ. We are even united in Christ with Catholics and Baptist becausewe are the Body and Christ is the Head. If a non believer approached you, would you first tell them about salvation through Jesus Christ or would you first point them to RCIA?

You didn’t answer my question and unity. Do you believe we are untied when we are all under the authority of the RCC?

I don’t have no idea of what you mean by united in the Assembly of God to which you claim no need for unity. Its impossible to answer your question as the original dilemma exists in the dialogue which you continue to ignore. Yet you bought it up. Your conversation is circular and repeating it doesn’t change the point.

Where one is saved is “non-sequitur” to you, but is disunity and unity “non-sequitur?” No its self evident?

I would think you would want to clarify this dilemma. Though I suppose no need is required. Its clear.

 

[aidanbradypop]

I don’t have no idea of what you mean by united in the Assembly of God to which you claim no need for unity. Its impossible to answer your question as the original dilemma exists in the dialogue which you continue to ignore. Yet you bought it up. Your conversation is circular and repeating it doesn’t change the point.

I would think you would want to clarify this dilemma. Though I suppose no need is required. Its clear.

Yes I am starting to believe your argument to be cirular as well so let us move along to other post.

 

[JMM1957]

I strongly believe after talking to completely unchurched people in Seattle and I mean people that have never been to any church in their entire life they would be more likely to seek the Christian faith if there was one option instead of thousands

Less options certainly couldn’t hurt for those type of people you are speaking of. I do see where it would be very discouraging to go through the process of elimination for someone who hasn’t got a clue where to start. I certainly wouldn’t want to be faced with all the choices out there. Preaching Jesus Christ is what Christian churches do, but simply telling someone that we must accept Jesus as Our Lord and Saviour to be saved, truthfully is not the end of the story. Anyone can profess that with their lips. The Bible says that “the Church is the bulwark and pillar of truth”. We need to not only read that and say “Amen”, but honestly understand how the Church has that role to begin with, and where that authority came from.

 

[Per_Crucem]

I strongly believe after talking to completely unchurched people in Seattle and I mean people that have never been to any church in their entire life they would be more likely to seek the Christian faith if there was one option instead of thousands

Really? So you think that if you take the average licentious, God-hating narcissistic unbeliever in Seattle and plop them in a Catholic church, they are going to say “Oh wow, I am going to repent and give up my heathen ways because all of the people at this parish agree with each other that I need to repent and give up my heathen ways!”?

 

[JMM1957]

Really? So you think that if you take the average licentious, God-hating narcissistic unbeliever in Seattle and plop them in a Catholic church, they are going to say “Oh wow, I am going to repent and give up my heathen ways because all of the people at this parish agree with each other that I need to repent and give up my heathen ways!”?

He didn’t characterize them that way, you are.

 

[Per_Crucem]

He didn’t characterize them that way, you are.

It’s not a question of how he characterized them; but it’s the truth regardless. Unity in doctrine is important but ultimately not for unbelievers but for believers.

When it comes to unbelievers, the vast majority of Christian churches are unified in the proclamation of the Gospel. Beyond that, I don’t think the average atheist is going to be much impressed by the argument “because the Pope said so, and we all agree with him.”

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Unity isn’t something that Catholics have either. In Catholicism, you have factions verbally warring against each other over important issues like the mass. The “unity” of Catholicism is a front that hides a divided house. The Church needs to advertise differently.

Here are just a few of the factions: liberal catholics, traditional catholics, ultramontanists, charismatic Catholics and folk Catholics who blend pagan traditions with the Catholic one.

Truth stings, lol.

You mean we should actually listen to what the Church actually teaches instead of picking fights and pointing to other people’s specks in their eyes when we have a log in ours?

Got it

 

[Isaiah45_9]

It’s not a question of how he characterized them; but it’s the truth regardless. Unity in doctrine is important but ultimately not for unbelievers but for believers.

When it comes to unbelievers, the vast majority of Christian churches are unified in the proclamation of the Gospel. Beyond that, I don’t think the average atheist is going to be much impressed by the argument “because the Pope said so, and we all agree with him.”

But… but… I’m right and you are wrong

 

[aidanbradypop]

But… but… I’m right and you are wrong

Lol. No I am right so

 

[Abu]

aidanbradypop #15
I stated that among the churched, Catholics that I know tend to be more upset about the perceived disunity that other Christians.

Precisely because they are trying to follow the Christ who taught and expressed and emphasized exactly the same truth:
“I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in Me through their word, that they all may be one as Thou, Father, in Me and I in Thee…. That the world may believe that Thou hast sent Me (Jn 17:20-21).

Blithely ignored also, for idle chatter, is the stark warning of Jesus Himself: “For false christs and false prophets will arise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.” (Mk 13:22). Just as Christ founding His Church on St Peter, and giving him His authority is ignored.

The rejection by Martin Luther of the treasures of Catholicism for his own feelings is evidence enough of the wisdom of Christ in establishing St Peter and His Magisterium to teach, sanctify and rule.

I praise God if the become a Catholic, Anglican, Baptist or whatever as long as Christ is the center in their lives.

If Christ is really the centre, why are His mandatory requirements ignored? The title of the esteemed Frank J Sheed’s “A Clinical Study of the Good Christian” is Christ in Eclipse, and nothing could be more relevant to the studied ambivalence towards Christ’s teaching and His sole Church.

The mandate from Christ Himself with all four promises to Peter alone:
“You are Peter and on this rock I will build My Church.” (Mt 16:18)
“The gates of hell will not prevail against it.”(Mt 16:18)
I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.” ( Mt 16:19)
“Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven.” (Mt 16:19) [Later, also to the Twelve].

Sole authority:
“Strengthen your brethren.” (Lk 22:32)
“Feed My sheep.”(Jn 21:17).

So why ignore Christ, the Son of God, and fail to understand the teaching of Christ who mandated the Ten Commandments proclaimed by God the Father through Moses, which include loving your neighbour as yourself, and who clearly instituted His own Church led by St Peter and warned “If you love Me, keep My Commandments.” (Jn 14:15), authorizing in His Name re dissenters: “if he refuses to hear even the Church let him be like the heathen and a publican.” (Mt 18:17).

St. Paul says also, “through the Church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places (Eph 3:10).” The Church teaches even the angels! This is with the authority of Christ! St John counsels: “We belong to God, and anyone who knows God listens to us, while anyone who does not belong to God refuses to hear us. This is how we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of deceit.” (1 Jn 4:6).

 

[aidanbradypop]

Precisely because they are trying to follow the Christ who taught and expressed and emphasized exactly the same truth:
“I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in Me through their word, that they all may be one as Thou, Father, in Me and I in Thee…. That the world may believe that Thou hast sent Me (Jn 17:20-21).

Blithely ignored also, for idle chatter, is the stark warning of Jesus Himself: “For false christs and false prophets will arise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.” (Mk 13:22). Just as Christ founding His Church on St Peter, and giving him His authority is ignored.

The rejection by Martin Luther of the treasures of Catholicism for his own feelings is evidence enough of the wisdom of Christ in establishing St Peter and His Magisterium to teach, sanctify and rule.
If Christ is really the centre, why are His mandatory requirements ignored? The title of the esteemed Frank J Sheed’s “A Clinical Study of the Good Christian” is Christ in Eclipse, and nothing could be more relevant to the studied ambivalence towards Christ’s teaching and His sole Church.

The mandate from Christ Himself with all four promises to Peter alone:
“You are Peter and on this rock I will build My Church.” (Mt 16:18)
“The gates of hell will not prevail against it.”(Mt 16:18)
I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.” ( Mt 16:19)
“Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven.” (Mt 16:19) [Later, also to the Twelve].

Sole authority:
“Strengthen your brethren.” (Lk 22:32)
“Feed My sheep.”(Jn 21:17).

So why ignore Christ, the Son of God, and fail to understand the teaching of Christ who mandated the Ten Commandments proclaimed by God the Father through Moses, which include loving your neighbour as yourself, and who clearly instituted His own Church led by St Peter and warned “If you love Me, keep My Commandments.” (Jn 14:15), authorizing in His Name re dissenters: “if he refuses to hear even the Church let him be like the heathen and a publican.” (Mt 18:17).

St. Paul says also, “through the Church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places (Eph 3:10).” The Church teaches even the angels! This is with the authority of Christ! St John counsels: “We belong to God, and anyone who knows God listens to us, while anyone who does not belong to God refuses to hear us. This is how we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of deceit.” (1 Jn 4:6).

Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut Abu.

 

[Adamski]

Disunity isn’t perceived it’s reality and according to pagans it effects their view of Christ as being weak.

Let’s put it in an historical contexted

1-do you think the Vikings would have dropped their belief in Odin if it wasn’t for a strong central authority

2-do you think the Aztecs would have stopped human sacrifices if it wasn’t for a unified church

3-do you think the Iroquois would have stopped cutting off fingers with clam shells and a religion of revenge murders if it wasn’t for a One Holy and apostolic church

What is different to the current pagans sacraficing their children at the altar of abortion

Disunity looks weak and is weak to a non Christian and it is an obstacle to excepting Jesus as Lord!

In reality the vast majority of Protestant conversions have either been riding on the coat tails of orthodoxy or catholism such as in Eastern Europe or english colonies

 

[Abu]

Aidanbradypop #35
Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut Abu.

Thank you, Aidanbradypop, and may your search lead you to the fullness of Christ’s Truth.

 

[aidanbradypop]

Thank you, Aidanbradypop, and may your search lead you to the fullness of Christ’s Truth.

Thanks for the kind words Abu! I hope the same for you and everyone. I am very thankful for my church and faith. Christ is alive and changing lives in the Assemblies of God. It is so wonderful to witness the Holy Spirit at work! I pray we all know and experience the fullness of Christ’s truth in our lives.

 

[MaryT777]

Thanks for the kind words Abu! I hope the same for you and everyone. I am very thankful for my church and faith. Christ is alive and changing lives in the Assemblies of God. It is so wonderful to witness the Holy Spirit at work! I pray we all know and experience the fullness of Christ’s truth in our lives.

Amen. Good to “see you” on the forums again.
Mary.

 

[aidanbradypop]

Amen. Good to “see you” on the forums again.
Mary.

always good to “see” you as well Mary!