For Protestants: Do you believe in OSAS?

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To muddy the waters a little…

I have talked to a Calvinist who believes OSAS is “heresy”.

What he believes in is perseverence of the saints, which he claims is much different from OSAS.

From talking to him, his beliefs do not imply antinomianism, which I always though OSAS did.

Now I am still not there yet with him, but at least his beliefs seem less objectionable than what I have always interpreted as OSAS.
 
rr1213 said:
At one point, I felt it to be true although, intellectually, I struggled with the concept because I also believe in free will. If man is free to choose God (according to the grace given to him by God), then presumably he is free to deny God and, also, to change his mind. If that is the case then OSAS does not make much sense (unless, perhaps, you believe that once man makes his choice God will ensure that man does not fall away).

At this point, I’m afraid I’ve lost my earlier assurance of the OSAS doctrine.
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Congratulations your level of “Enlightened Common Sense” you have achieved. You are now one step closer…if not many…
 
I like how this discussion became at some points more about the odd options for the poll…heh. Anyway, OSAS is odd because it denies the power of the Devil and of evil spirits to turn one away from the faith just as Satan did to Eve. All of the scripture quoted above is the same as I would use in showing that it is in fact possible to lose faith that was once true faith indeed.
 
lak611 said:
I didn’t vote because I would have to pick multiple choice. I don’t believe it because of both the fact that it cannot be supported by Scripture 100% and the fact that I am a Catholic. Both reasons are correct for me, so I cannot vote.
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Sorry Mannfit, you did not think out the possible answers.

Here are some other possible answers:

No, because I am Catholic and its not support by Scripture

Yes, because I am Protestant.

Yest, because I am Protestant and it is 100% scriptural.
 
rr1213 said:
At one point, I felt it to be true although, intellectually, I struggled with the concept because I also believe in free will. If man is free to choose God (according to the grace given to him by God), then presumably he is free to deny God and, also, to change his mind. If that is the case then OSAS does not make much sense (unless, perhaps, you believe that once man makes his choice God will ensure that man does not fall away).

At this point, I’m afraid I’ve lost my earlier assurance of the OSAS doctrine.
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I had OSAS presented to me as something that I HAD to believe in order to be a Christian. But very early on I had serious problems with the whole concept. Logically, for the reasons that you gave, it does not make sense. Of course, I had Christians tell me that if you really are a Christian then you will not even question OSAS.

I was so troubled by OSAS that I doubted my salvation. 😦
 
mozart-250 said:
To muddy the waters a little…

I have talked to a Calvinist who believes OSAS is “heresy”.

What he believes in is perseverence of the saints, which he claims is much different from OSAS.

From talking to him, his beliefs do not imply antinomianism, which I always though OSAS did.

Now I am still not there yet with him, but at least his beliefs seem less objectionable than what I have always interpreted as OSAS.
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I’ve never been under the impression that OSAS is antinomianism. As your Calvinist friend pointed out they don’t call it OSAS but perseverence of the saints.

Perseverence of the saints means that people who are really saved cannot become unsaved. OSAS means once you are saved you cannot be unsaved. The thing you may be missing is the “really” part. Most Calvinists believe that if you have a “salvation experience” and do whatever you like with no repentance… you were never really saved in the first place. This is not antinominism.

I can see how antinominists are also OSAS, but in that case, the meaning is different. Besides, is there even any denomination that is antinominist? I never heard of one. I think most of the antinominist heretics have died out.
 
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Syele:
I’ve never been under the impression that OSAS is antinomianism. As your Calvinist friend pointed out they don’t call it OSAS but perseverence of the saints.
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Perhaps this will help:1. Classic Arminianism
• One must persevere in faith to be saved.
• True believers can lose their faith.
• Those dying without faith in Christ are condemned.

“The believer who loses his faith is damned.”

2. Antinomianism
• One need not persevere in faith to be saved.
• True believers can lose their faith.
• Those who lose their faith are saved, since they once believed.

“The believer who loses his faith is saved.”

3. Classic Calvinism
• One must persevere in faith to be saved.
• True believers cannot lose their faith, since it’s God’s gift.
• Those dying without faith in Christ are condemned.
• Those who “lose” their faith never had it to begin with.
• God will preserve true believers and they will be saved.

“The ‘believer’ who loses his faith never really had it—or at least it wasn’t in Jesus.”
 
sandusky said:
Perhaps this will help:1. Classic Arminianism
• One must persevere in faith to be saved.
• True believers can lose their faith.
• Those dying without faith in Christ are condemned.

“The believer who loses his faith is damned.”

2. Antinomianism
• One need not persevere in faith to be saved.
• True believers can lose their faith.
• Those who lose their faith are saved, since they once believed.

“The believer who loses his faith is saved.”

3. Classic Calvinism
• One must persevere in faith to be saved.
• True believers cannot lose their faith, since it’s God’s gift.
• Those dying without faith in Christ are condemned.
• Those who “lose” their faith never had it to begin with.
• God will preserve true believers and they will be saved.

“The ‘believer’ who loses his faith never really had it—or at least it wasn’t in Jesus.”
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I understand these, as I said, I am Arminian. But your explaination was much clearer than mine, thanks. 😃

I guess what I ment is that most of the time, I think people mean the Calvinist viewpoint when they say OSAS and that Calvinism is not Antinomianism.
 
Syele said:
I understand these, as I said, I am Arminian. But your explaination was much clearer than mine, thanks. 😃

I guess what I ment is that most of the time, I think people mean the Calvinist viewpoint when they say OSAS and that Calvinism is not Antinomianism.
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I find that on these boards, the Catholics referring to OSAS are exclusively referring to the antinomian version; for the most part, that is the only version with which they are concerned, and they will generally try to lump all protestants into antinomianism; IMO, that is because Catholicism is arminian, and one does not attack his own position; and, as can be seen in the definition given in my last post, the points of the classic calvinist view of “OSAS” are difficult to attack. 🙂
 
mozart-250 said:
To muddy the waters a little…

I have talked to a Calvinist who believes OSAS is “heresy”.

What he believes in is perseverence of the saints, which he claims is much different from OSAS.

From talking to him, his beliefs do not imply antinomianism, which I always though OSAS did.

Now I am still not there yet with him, but at least his beliefs seem less objectionable than what I have always interpreted as OSAS.
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Yes, all those I know who subscribe to a “OSAS” believe it in a more preseverance of the Saints rather than, you can be saved and still go to heaven no matter what you do. I have yet to meet a person who believes someone who is truly saved will go out and sin like hell no matter if the believe in OSAS or not.
 
sandusky said:
I find that on these boards, the Catholics referring to OSAS are exclusively referring to the antinomian version; for the most part, that is the only version with which they are concerned, and they will generally try to lump all protestants into antinomianism; IMO, that is because Catholicism is arminian, and one does not attack his own position; and, as can be seen in the definition given in my last post, the points of the classic calvinist view of “OSAS” are difficult to attack. 🙂
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:eek: perhaps I have been giving those Catholics more credit than they were due?

The part that troubles me about this is that it’s Calvinists who will answer that they DO believe OSAS based on “True believers cannot lose their faith, since it’s God’s gift” and “God will preserve true believers and they will be saved.”

It’s totally unfair to lump Calvinists in with Antinominists.
 
I’d be really interested if the 4 who’ve voted yes would say if you are Calvinist or Antinominists or something else.
 
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Syele:
The part that troubles me about this is that it’s Calvinists who will answer that they DO believe OSAS based on “True believers cannot lose their faith, since it’s God’s gift” and “God will preserve true believers and they will be saved.”

It’s totally unfair to lump Calvinists in with Antinominists.
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It would be unfair to lump Arminians in with antinomians as well. What is troubling to you about those two points of the Calvinist position?
 
** Antinomianism**

Well, I finally have a “name” to stick on my sister. 😃
She believes this and hasn’t set foot in any church in 25 years - at least!
She and her ex were once practicing Baptists. They gave so much money to Jerry Falwell and Jimmy Swaggart I could have cried.
Now she’s a “nothing” but totally believes she’s “saved” forever…even though she lived unmarried with someone for 12 of those 25 years and various other sins that I know of.
She has a mental block against The Catholic Church so we can’t even discuss religion. 😦
 
water said:
I wish I could choose both choices
  • No, because it is not 100% in Scripture!
  • No, I don’t believe it because I’m Catholic.
Thanks MariaG
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You are welcome:)

I picked the scripture one though because I did not believe in OSAS even when Protestant, but I wanted to pick both too!
 
sandusky said:
It would be unfair to lump Arminians in with antinomians as well. What is troubling to you about those two points of the Calvinist position?
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It was troubling me that Catholics were unfairly lumping the Calvinists and Antinominists together. To make matter more complicateded Calvinists, who believe those two statements, sometimes don’t understand what the Catholics are implying and say “Yes, I believe in OSAS and it’s scriptural.” It’s perpetuating the whole issue by getting people to say they are Antinominists when they aren’t.
 
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