For Protestants that think the Catholic Church is one of many good options

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JonNC said:
Not exactly accurate on all three.
Lutherans in no way “reject” marriage, unction, ordination, and Confirmation. As a cradle Lutheran, I am confirmed, and married. I have witnessed an ordination, and am aware of annointing of the sick within and among Lutherans. All of these, in one way or another, can be seen as a means of the Spirit conferring grace.
As for Baptism, Confession/Absolution, and the Eucharist, these are obvious sacraments.

I suspect, also, that it will not be up to the laity of either communion as to what must be “repudiated” by the other.

Jon
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Lutherans believe only baptism and eucharist are sacraments. Of course they can get married!? They reject that it is a sacrament. They believe there is no such thing as the ministerial priesthood. Lutherans have ministers, not priests. Thet don’t believe that the Mass is a true sacrifice, and they have no priest to offer that sacrifice. For all these reasons and many others, there can be no reunification.
 
Itsjuslittleme said:
Lutherans believe only baptism and eucharist are sacraments. Of course they can get married!? They reject that it is a sacrament. They believe there is no such thing as the ministerial priesthood. Lutherans have ministers, not priests. Thet don’t believe that the Mass is a true sacrifice, and they have no priest to offer that sacrifice. For all these reasons and many others, there can be no reunification.
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bookofconcord.org/defense_12_sacraments.php

The link is from the Apology of the Augsburg Confession, which lays out rather specifically the issue of the numbering of the sacraments, but just a couple of snippets:
We hold that it should be maintained that the matters and ceremonies instituted in the Scriptures, whatever the number, be not neglected. Neither do we believe it to be of any consequence, though, for the purpose of teaching, different people reckon differently, provided they still preserve aright the matters handed down in Scripture. Neither have the ancients reckoned in the same manner. [But concerning this number of seven sacraments, the fact is that the Fathers have not been uniform in their enumeration; thus also these seven ceremonies are not equally necessary.]
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So, for example, marriage, while not equally necessary to that of Baptism, still should not be ignored. This is precisely the Lutheran practice. Whether or not one numbers it among the sacraments, it is scriptural, and should not, must not be neglected.
3] If we call Sacraments rites which have the command of God, and to which the promise of grace has been added, it is easy to decide what are properly Sacraments. For rites instituted by men will not in this way be Sacraments properly so called. For it does not belong to human authority to promise grace. Therefore signs instituted without God’s command are not sure signs of grace, even though they perhaps instruct the rude [children or the uncultivated], or admonish as to something [as a painted cross]. 4] Therefore Baptism, the Lord’s Supper, and Absolution, which is the Sacrament of Repentance, are truly Sacraments. For these rites have God’s command and the promise of grace, which is peculiar to the New Testament. For when we are baptized, when we eat the Lord’s body, when we are absolved, our hearts must be firmly assured that God truly forgives us 5] for Christ’s sake. And God, at the same time, by the Word and by the rite, moves hearts to believe and conceive faith, just as Paul says, Rom. 10:17: Faith cometh by hearing. But just as the Word enters the ear in order to strike our heart, so the rite itself strikes the eye, in order to move the heart. The effect of the Word and of the rite is the same, as it has been well said by Augustine that a Sacrament is a visible word, because the rite is received by the eyes, and is, as it were, a picture of the Word, signifying the same thing as the Word. Therefore the effect of both is the same.
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Here we find a definition, of sorts, or the word sacrament, followed by a laying out of why we consider Baptism, Confession/Absolution, and the Eucharist sacraments.

It is not a denial or rejection of the others, but a clarification of what we see as sacraments proper, under that definition.
1.instituted by Christ;
2.in which God Himself has joined His Word of promise to the visible element;
3.by which He offers, gives and seals the forgiveness of sin earned by Christ

Because of number two, some will say that Confession/Absolution is not a sacrament on its own (lacking a physical element), but rather is an extension of Baptism. To my knowledge, the differing belief is non-controversial. Either way, it is clear that there is attached to it the promise of grace.

Hope that helps.

Jon
 
Itsjuslittleme said:
Lutherans believe only baptism and eucharist are sacraments. Of course they can get married!? They reject that it is a sacrament. They believe there is no such thing as the ministerial priesthood. Lutherans have ministers, not priests. Thet don’t believe that the Mass is a true sacrifice, and they have no priest to offer that sacrifice. For all these reasons and many others, there can be no reunification.
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On the ministerial priesthood, it is not uncommon for Lutherans to refer to there pastors as priest, as is done in our confessions. a recognition of the Priesthood of all believers is not a rejection of the ministerial priesthood. Again, from the Apology:
Article XIV: Of Ecclesiastical Order.
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24] **The Fourteenth Article, in which we say that in the Church the administration of the Sacraments and Word ought to be allowed no one unless he be rightly called, they receive, but with the proviso that we employ canonical ordination. Concerning this subject we have frequently testified in this assembly that it is our greatest wish to maintain church-polity and the grades in the Church [old church-regulations and the government of bishops], even though they have been made by human authority [provided the bishops allow our doctrine and receive our priests]. **For we know that church discipline was instituted by the Fathers, in the manner laid down in the ancient canons, with a good and useful intention. 25] But the bishops either compel our priests to reject and condemn this kind of doctrine which we have confessed, or, by a new and unheard-of cruelty, they put to death the poor innocent men. These causes hinder our priests from acknowledging such bishops. Thus the cruelty of the bishops is the reason why the canonical government, which we greatly desired to maintain, is in some places dissolved. Let them see to it how they will give an account to God for dispersing 26] the Church. In this matter our consciences are not in danger, because since we know that our Confession is true, godly, and catholic, we ought not to approve the cruelty of those who persecute this doctrine. 27] And we know that the Church is among those who teach the Word of God aright, and administer the Sacraments aright, and not with those who not only by their edicts endeavor to efface God’s Word, but also put to death those who teach what is right and true; 28] towards whom, even though they do something contrary to the canons, yet the very canons are milder. Furthermore, we wish here again to testify that we will gladly maintain ecclesiastical and canonical government, provided the bishops only cease to rage against our Churches. This our desire will clear us both before God and among all nations to all posterity from the imputation against us that the authority of the bishops is being undermined, when men read and hear that, although protesting against the unrighteous cruelty of the bishops, we could not obtain justice.
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While it is true that we view the priesthood differently than the CC, it is not a rejection of the ministerial priesthood.

On the sacrifice of the Mass, there are clear distinctions between us, but it is clear Christ’s once for all sacrifice, and it is also not uncommon for Lutherans to speak of our sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving.
For all these reasons and many others, there can be no reunification.
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It seems to me, in the matter of ecumenical discussion, and the prospects for unity and reconciliation, typically, the leaders on neither side are depending on the views of us, the laity. That said, my prayers continue in this regard.

Jon
 
It is a fact that Lutherans recognize only 2 sacraments, reject the existence of the ministerial priesthood and reject that the Mass is a true sacrifice. Your arguments muddy the water, but the facts remain. Once Lutherans repudiate these errors, then they can rejoin the Catholic Church and we’ll be reunified.
 
Itsjuslittleme said:
It is a fact that Lutherans recognize only 2 sacraments, reject the existence of the ministerial priesthood and reject that the Mass is a true sacrifice. Your arguments muddy the water, but the facts remain. Once Lutherans repudiate these errors, then they can rejoin the Catholic Church and we’ll be reunified.
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It wasn’t my intention to muddy the waters for you, sorry. I was hoping to avoid that by quoting our confessions
Generally I have found that people usually know more about their own communion than they do other communions

Jon
 
Itsjuslittleme said:
It is a fact that Lutherans recognize only 2 sacraments, reject the existence of the ministerial priesthood and reject that the Mass is a true sacrifice…
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Not quite, nope and wrong. I’d check out some of the other threads here. You’ll find that Lutherans might not believe what you think they do. Not minimizing the substantial differences that remain - you are correct that any possible reunification is a long time off - but it’s always good to take time and learn what others actually believe. For Lutherans, it means reading our Confessions, and not a summary prepared by a non-Lutheran.
 
steido01 said:
Not quite, nope and wrong. I’d check out some of the other threads here. You’ll find that Lutherans might not believe what you think they do. Not minimizing the substantial differences that remain - you are correct that any possible reunification is a long time off - but it’s always good to take time and learn what others actually believe. For Lutherans, it means reading our Confessions, and not a summary prepared by a non-Lutheran.
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Ok, here is from the Missouri Synod (Lutheran, Of cource) site smallcatechism.org/,

"The Roman Catholic Church has seven sacraments. These include Confirmation, Confession (that is, asking for forgiveness of sin), Ordination (when a person becomes a priest), Marriage, Extreme Unction (that is, anointing someone just before the time of their death), Holy Baptism, and Holy Communion. Other Protestant Churches do not have sacraments at all.

Following the teaching of Martin Luther, Lutherans recognize Sacraments as something so holy and so special, that they deserve to be in a special category. That is why Lutherans have just two sacraments: Holy Baptism and Holy Communion."

Ok, so like I was saying, the Catholic Church has seven sacraments, and the Lutheran Church has two. People on this thread (who apparently are Lutherans) keep denying this fact. Why is that? Anyone can look it up!
 
This if from another thread on CAF, from headman13, who identifies himself as a Lutheran pastor:

“Speaking as a Lutheran Pastor, we believe that Jesus is the Great High Priest, He has made the perfect sacrifice. His ransomed People, the whole people of God are “a Kingdom of Priests and a Holy Nation.” We call it the “Priesthood of All Believers”. Pastors–as we are called–are set apart by the whole Church to act for it in the Ministry of Word and Sacrament, that’s why pastors can only officiate “under call” from a congregation, we are not “freelancers”. Ordained Pastors are acting locally for the whole universal church. The whole question of the “Sacrifice” of the Mass comes up here. That’s the whole point of this discussion. We believe that the Mass is NOT a Sacrifice, Catholics do.”

Ok, like I said, for Lutherans the Mass is not a sacrifice… anyone want to deny that fact, again?!
 
steido01 said:
Not quite, nope and wrong. I’d check out some of the other threads here. You’ll find that Lutherans might not believe what you think they do. Not minimizing the substantial differences that remain - you are correct that any possible reunification is a long time off - but it’s always good to take time and learn what others actually believe. For Lutherans, it means reading our Confessions, and not a summary prepared by a non-Lutheran.
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This is from the site patheos.com/Library/Lutheran/Ethics-Morality-Community/LeadershipClergy.html

“Like most mainline Protestant churches, **Lutherans have ministers rather than priests.**Priests, by definition, are an intermediary between people and the divine.So, for example, in some religions people are required to offer sacrifices to God or the gods, but they are not themselves able to do so and thereforemust obtain the services of a priest to sacrifice for them.**Martin Luther believed in the priesthood of all believers. In other words, salvation is a gift given directly by God to people, and requires no intermediary.**Everyone stands directly before God at judgment, and it would do no good to bring your priest with you.”

OK, so those of you who wish to deny facts that are easily checked … please stop it! Lutherans do deny the existence of the ministerial priesthood, it’s a fact.
 
Itsjuslittleme said:
Ok, here is from the Missouri Synod (Lutheran, Of cource) site smallcatechism.org/,

"The Roman Catholic Church has seven sacraments. These include Confirmation, Confession (that is, asking for forgiveness of sin), Ordination (when a person becomes a priest), Marriage, Extreme Unction (that is, anointing someone just before the time of their death), Holy Baptism, and Holy Communion. Other Protestant Churches do not have sacraments at all.

Following the teaching of Martin Luther, Lutherans recognize Sacraments as something so holy and so special, that they deserve to be in a special category. That is why Lutherans have just two sacraments: Holy Baptism and Holy Communion."

Ok, so like I was saying, the Catholic Church has seven sacraments, and the Lutheran Church has two. People on this thread (who apparently are Lutherans) keep denying this fact. Why is that? Anyone can look it up!
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And like I told you, the Apology of the Augsburg Confession lists three. Luther considered absolution an extension of BAptism and a means of grace. Lutherans view it in one of those two ways. I consider it a separate sacrament like the apology says

Jon
 
Itsjuslittleme said:
Ok, here is from the Missouri Synod (Lutheran, Of cource) site smallcatechism.org/,

"The Roman Catholic Church has seven sacraments. These include Confirmation, Confession (that is, asking for forgiveness of sin), Ordination (when a person becomes a priest), Marriage, Extreme Unction (that is, anointing someone just before the time of their death), Holy Baptism, and Holy Communion. Other Protestant Churches do not have sacraments at all.

Following the teaching of Martin Luther, Lutherans recognize Sacraments as something so holy and so special, that they deserve to be in a special category. That is why Lutherans have just two sacraments: Holy Baptism and Holy Communion."

Ok, so like I was saying, the Catholic Church has seven sacraments, and the Lutheran Church has two. People on this thread (who apparently are Lutherans) keep denying this fact. Why is that? Anyone can look it up!
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You’re quoting a website developed by a pastor for finding simple answers to simple questions. It is hardly “from the Missori Synod” as you stated. For a complete answer, Lutherans are beholden to our Confessions, which were quoted earlier. As Jon already stated, our Confessions do not bind any Lutheran to a particular number of Sacraments (similar to numbering the Decalogue), though two or three is suggested. Once again, it’s best not to try to tell others what they believe.
 
Itsjuslittleme said:
This if from another thread on CAF, from headman13, who identifies himself as a Lutheran pastor:

“Speaking as a Lutheran Pastor, we believe that Jesus is the Great High Priest, He has made the perfect sacrifice. His ransomed People, the whole people of God are “a Kingdom of Priests and a Holy Nation.” We call it the “Priesthood of All Believers”. Pastors–as we are called–are set apart by the whole Church to act for it in the Ministry of Word and Sacrament, that’s why pastors can only officiate “under call” from a congregation, we are not “freelancers”. Ordained Pastors are acting locally for the whole universal church. The whole question of the “Sacrifice” of the Mass comes up here. That’s the whole point of this discussion. We believe that the Mass is NOT a Sacrifice, Catholics do.”

Ok, like I said, for Lutherans the Mass is not a sacrifice… anyone want to deny that fact, again?!
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I cannot speak for the pastor, but I would agree that we do not view the Mass as a sacrifice that we or the piest do - rather, the Eucharist is a remembrance and re-presentation or Christ’s one, only, totally sufficient and eternal Sacrifice. So, again, not quite.

It’s important to learn what others believe instead of repeating what you’ve heard about them. There’s a great thread going on this topic right now.
 
steido01 said:
You’re quoting a website developed by a pastor for finding simple answers to simple questions. It is hardly “from the Missori Synod” as you stated. For a complete answer, Lutherans are beholden to our Confessions, which were quoted earlier. As Jon already stated, our Confessions do not bind any Lutheran to a particular number of Sacraments (similar to numbering the Decalogue), though two or three is suggested. Once again, it’s best not to try to tell others what they believe.
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The point is, what is the teaching of the Lutheran Church? I was not raising a question about your personal beliefs. Your answers lack clarity and definitiveness. How many sacraments does the Lutheran Church teach? 2 or 3? Or is as many as any individual believes!? Is this Mass taught as the sacrifice of calvary, yes or no? Does the Lutheran Church believe in the existence and necessity of the ministerial priesthood, or not?!

Would you please directly answer those 3 questions, not about your personal belief, but what the Lutheran church teaches?
 
Itsjuslittleme said:
The point is, what is the teaching of the Lutheran Church? I was not raising a question about your personal beliefs. Your answers lack clarity and definitiveness. How many sacraments does the Lutheran Church teach? 2 or 3? Or is as many as any individual believes!? Is this Mass taught as the sacrifice of calvary, yes or no? Does the Lutheran Church believe in the existence and necessity of the ministerial priesthood, or not?!

Would you please directly answer those 3 questions, not about your personal belief, but what the Lutheran church teaches?
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Sacraments: Usually 2 or 3. The ECFs were not in total agreement in their numbering, so Lutherans don’t see a need to make the number a matter of doctrine. We know that Grace is received in the Sacraments.

The Eucharist: is not a sacrifice that we puny humans do. It can be spoken of as a re-presentation of Christ’s one, eternal sacrifice.

Necessity of the teaching office: Yep. No one is to administer the Sacraments unless he is regularly called.

It’s all in the Book of Concord. My personal beliefs have no meaning whatsoever.
 
steido01 said:
Sacraments: Usually 2 or 3. The ECFs were not in total agreement in their numbering, so Lutherans don’t see a need to make the number a matter of doctrine. We know that Grace is received in the Sacraments.

The Eucharist: is not a sacrifice that we puny humans do. It can be spoken of as a re-presentation of Christ’s one, eternal sacrifice.

Necessity of the teaching office: Yep. No one is to administer the Sacraments unless he is regularly called.

It’s all in the Book of Concord. My personal beliefs have no meaning whatsoever.
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Thank you. Peace to you, in Christ!
 
JonNC said:
Thanks, Mary! 👍

I attempted to do that in posts 42 and 43.

Jon
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Being a lifelong Lutheran doesn’t count though Jon
just like me being a lifelong Catholic. Who knows your own
religion better than you?
Google knows. 🙂
 
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