For Protestants who don't honor Mary ...

[Don_Ruggero]

I am sure you do. It is another chance for Catholics to look down their noses at those comical rustic Protestants in all their contradictions. Aren’t we funny? Let’s all gather around and mock the idiot Protestants. That is what it is all about, isn’t it?

This is what is called a gotcha game, where you find a contradiction with which to humiliate and corner the other side in an attempt to bring them down. What fun.

Well. We don’t sing about Mary. After this week I recognize the Reformers’ wisdom in excising every possible trace of Mariolatry from our services. I thank God for that. Singing songs to Mary in the service, it seems to me, would be uncharitable, like giving gin to an alcoholic. There are repeated admonitions about ‘the Lord God alone you shall serve’. I have seen enough Catholics committed to Mary who are disrespectful to priests to last me a lifetime. If I had a statue of Mary in my garden right now I would smash it after the disgusting spectacle of this week. The threads are gone but the memories remain. The Catholic Church indulges idolatry by singing such songs. That has been made extremely clear.

We do not sing birthday songs, patriotic songs, or anything to anyone except God in our services. There is a Reformation principle of To God Alone Be the Glory, and idolatry such as has been posted here, and still is, over in Spirituality, is the reason. Some people are weak-minded enough they should not be around songs that would cause them to worship Mary, or anything else as God. And the glory rightly belongs to God, and to give it to anyone else is robbing Him of His glory. He will deal with glory thieves and people who worship the creature rather than the Creator.

That is my turn. Now, yours. Please explain how your post lines up with the Catholic Church’s ecumenical efforts over the last 25 or so years. As you are an informed and knowledgeable Catholic (as opposed to such an ignorant hayseed such as myself), you know of what I speak. Or do you? I think such as thread as you have started here is in direct opposition to the desires of the Holy See in regard to ecumenism, but most Catholics around here really don’t seem to care about what they think over there in Rome, what authentic Catholic teaching is or what the Church teaches. More fun to make it up on your own. Thus questions like yours. Do you care what the official teaching of the Catholic Church is in regards to ecumenism? No, because you started this thread.

I would like to add my perspective to what has been posted.

I** am the priest and the professor of theology** of many decades who was so viciously attacked in the several threads on Marian consecration – one thread being started specifically for the purpose to rally an attack against me, knowing that I am a priest. Let that be crystal clear.

Given the truly horrible things that these people wrote, which necessitated the thread being taken down by the moderators, I can understand why Tomyiris writes what she does.

It is regrettable that she was so misled by those who did not in any way represent the Church’s mind. That is a damage that cannot be simply undone.

The virtue of justice demands restitution in the face of a harm inflicted.

It was, quite frankly, the worst experience of my time in this forum – which has actually in little sense been in any way a positive experience – and one of the topics about which I will be talking with the bishop of the diocese in which Catholic Answers resides.

This action was done by those who present themselves as if devotees of the Blessed Virgin but who proved themselves to be theological illiterates as well as members of the flock who are disobedient to the Church’s shepherds. Let that be also crystal clear.

This is all too often seen with those who follow an imbalanced practice of piety that is not conformed to what the bishops and sound theology have directed as opposed to a form of intellectual infantilism…a thing always and everywhere to be rejected

They should stand before their respective bishops, and those others who have the care of their souls, for a wanton disobedience of what the Council Fathers at Vatican II commanded in Lumen Gentium, Paragraph 67, Chapter Eight, the Council’s treatment on the Blessed Virgin:
Let them assiduously keep away from whatever, either by word or deed, could lead separated brethren or any other into error regarding the true doctrine of the Church.
The experience of Tomyiris should serve, frankly, as a caution to every Catholic that, when we are judged, we will answer, as the Lord Jesus clearly said: for every stray word which has offended Him. When we misrepresent Him…when we misrepresent the Magisterium He constituted…when we misrepresent the Church of Rome, His judgment is justly convoked.

They do well, at the same time, to remember the words of the Lord, concerning those who are successors to the apostles:
He who hears you hears Me. He who rejects you rejects Me. He who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me.
These posters had not only the counsel of a professor in the subject of Mariology of many years standing, not only a Priest, and another member of the clergy. Far worse, they disobey the command of the Pope and of the College of Bishops, gathered in Ecumenical Council.

May God have mercy upon their immortal souls.

They have assuredly not honoured the Blessed Virgin by such action.

They will answer for that and for all the harm that accrues by their actions because of misleading souls “regarding the true doctrine of the Church.”

 

[pablope]

I am sure you do. It is another chance for Catholics to look down their noses at those comical rustic Protestants in all their contradictions. Aren’t we funny? Let’s all gather around and mock the idiot Protestants. That is what it is all about, isn’t it?

If this is how you see it…then why are you in these forums?

Well. We don’t sing about Mary. After this week I recognize the Reformers’ wisdom in excising every possible trace of Mariolatry from our services. I thank God for that.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

When i was a protestant who thought the Catholic church was apostate, I never once felt the urge to smash any of their artwork, even though it appeared idolatrous to me.

So I’m actually regretting not reading more threads here because id love to know exactly what was said that would drive Tomyris to such extreme thought.

I must admit…and i discussed this with my sponsor and previously with a RCIA director, that there are some within the Church who appear to go overboard with Marian devotion. And i understand why some protestants would perceive it to be worship and not veneration…Because quite frankly, i have a hard time distinguishing the difference myself, depending on the individual in question. Reciting the rosary is one thing, but when you see a person groveling on her face weeping and pleading to a statue of the blessed Mother, it can be a little disturbing.

Anyhow, those folks do not represent the whole of Catholicism. Most of us know the difference between creation and a creator and will never confuse the two.

 

[ltwin]

Which reformers? Martin Luther? Here’s what the founder of the Reformation had to say about Mary:

“The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart.”
“[Mary is the] highest woman and the noblest gem in Christianity after Christ… She is nobility, wisdom, and holiness personified. We can never honor her enough. Still honor and praise must be given to her in such a way as to injure neither Christ nor the Scriptures.”

Source: churchpop.com/2017/03/07/5-surprising-quotes-from-martin-luther-on-the-blessed-virgin-mary/

So was Martin Luther right or wrong? How do you know? If he was wrong about Mary, then how do you know he was right about Sola Fide, Sola Scriptura or the Canon of Scripture?

Just because Luther was correct about some things does not mean he has to be correct about everything. Protestants agree that the Scriptures alone are the one infallible source of all church teaching. By accepting that Luther was indeed right about sola scriptura we also admit that indeed Luther could be and probably was wrong about other stuff.Luckily, we don’t have to just take Luther’s word on anything. Holy Scripture, not Luther, is our standard.

Lastly on this point, are we not called as Christians to imitate Christ? And did He not fully entrust Himself to Mary for 9 months in the womb, and the years of his hidden life in Nazareth? So if Christ entrusted Himself to Mary, isn’t it fitting for us to entrust ourselves to her following the same pattern?

Entrust ourselves to Mary? Would she not rather us put our trust in her son? Mary was his mother. He loved her as his mother, and she loved him as a son. Nothing can take away from that relationship, but the mere fact that they had a Mother-Son relationship is not a good excuse to build an entire theology around Mary as some sort of mediator.

And if God is unchanging, and Grace entered the world through Mary by virtue of her giving birth to the Messiah, doesn’t it follow that Grace continues to flow through Mary?

Grace didn’t enter the world through Mary. The incarnation of course could not have happened without Mary, and she was highly favored and blessed among all people to have been chosen by God. But God’s grace was already at work within the world even before Mary herself was born.

As for grace flowing through Mary today, where are we taught that in Scripture? What Scripture tells me is that it is"by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God" (Ephesians 2:8). Since Mary was a human and in need of a savior also, she was saved by grace through faith in Christ Jesus.

That in no way diminishes her life and meaning to the church today. She is a role model for us all, pointing us to her son and encouraging us to “Do whatever he tells you” (John 2:5).

 

[Peter_J]

Having once been a Protestant, I find this question rather insulting. No Protestant dishonors Mary (dishonor = not honoring).

Okay, fair enough. But in my defense I did try to phrase the thread title in a non-inflammatory way, and then clarified in the OP that I meant Protestants who don’t honor her by singing songs about her in church.

Then again, it occurs to me that I’ve read so much anti-Protestant rhetoric over the years that I may have become a little too used to it. So thank you for pushing back against it.

 

[Peter_J]

Basically this week was really bad for threads on Marian devotion, cause some posters decided they knew more about Mary than a priest whose field of study is Mariology. Those posters weren’t children of Mary at all.

Thanks for that, james. When I get online I tend to stay in the shallow end of the pool, so to speak. Then i read Tomyris’s post and figured there had been some strange happenings online recently, vis a vis the Blessed Mother, but I didn’t know what.

 

[mattp0625]

Having once been a Protestant, I find this question rather insulting. No Protestant dishonors Mary (dishonor = not honoring). They don’t think of her as we do. They think we go over board in our love for Mary. But you are mixing apples with oranges with this question. Our love for Mary has nothing at all to do with a Protestant Church singing a patriotic song.

I believe what happens is a hatred for Catholicism or the pope spills over to Mary.

Teaching that she was just a vessel to be used by God, not a virgin, that Jesus rejected her, or that she was a status seeking Jewish mother seems rather insulting to me.

Hence the over reaction you may have seen by some.

If you don’t believe me, believe Dr Wesley Vincent, a former long time evangelical:

youtu.be/mYSp9Q3CsEU

All that being said…

Blessed are thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb.

All generations shall call me blessed

Hail full of grace

Luke 1

 

[on_the_hill]

I am sure you do. It is another chance for Catholics to look down their noses at those comical rustic Protestants in all their contradictions. Aren’t we funny? Let’s all gather around and mock the idiot Protestants. That is what it is all about, isn’t it?

This is what is called a gotcha game, where you find a contradiction with which to humiliate and corner the other side in an attempt to bring them down. What fun.

Well. We don’t sing about Mary. After this week I recognize the Reformers’ wisdom in excising every possible trace of Mariolatry from our services. I thank God for that. Singing songs to Mary in the service, it seems to me, would be uncharitable, like giving gin to an alcoholic. There are repeated admonitions about ‘the Lord God alone you shall serve’. I have seen enough Catholics committed to Mary who are disrespectful to priests to last me a lifetime. If I had a statue of Mary in my garden right now I would smash it after the disgusting spectacle of this week. The threads are gone but the memories remain. The Catholic Church indulges idolatry by singing such songs. That has been made extremely clear.

We do not sing birthday songs, patriotic songs, or anything to anyone except God in our services. There is a Reformation principle of To God Alone Be the Glory, and idolatry such as has been posted here, and still is, over in Spirituality, is the reason. Some people are weak-minded enough they should not be around songs that would cause them to worship Mary, or anything else as God. And the glory rightly belongs to God, and to give it to anyone else is robbing Him of His glory. He will deal with glory thieves and people who worship the creature rather than the Creator.

That is my turn. Now, yours. Please explain how your post lines up with the Catholic Church’s ecumenical efforts over the last 25 or so years. As you are an informed and knowledgeable Catholic (as opposed to such an ignorant hayseed such as myself), you know of what I speak. Or do you? I think such as thread as you have started here is in direct opposition to the desires of the Holy See in regard to ecumenism, but most Catholics around here really don’t seem to care about what they think over there in Rome, what authentic Catholic teaching is or what the Church teaches. More fun to make it up on your own. Thus questions like yours. Do you care what the official teaching of the Catholic Church is in regards to ecumenism? No, because you started this thread.

All too often angry people type angry posts that are intended to do nothing more than lash out with spite. I’ve often felt that everyone on CAF should have to post their real life age in their signature file (maybe CAF should require an authenticated copy of a birth certificate from each member? ), because I can see myself as I acted in my late teens in a lot of the emotionalism that often present.

And then people like Tomyris (and I) reach a boiling point and react.

I’m with Tomyris, and I’m Catholic (except I wouldn’t go so far as to smash statues ).

 

[GKC]

Thanks for that, james. When I get online I tend to stay in the shallow end of the pool, so to speak. Then i read Tomyris’s post and figured there had been some strange happenings online recently, vis a vis the Blessed Mother, but I didn’t know what.

And I did the same thing. That Tomyris post didn’t sound like those I had read in the past, in tone, to my memory. And the reference to threads made me suspect there had been an unfortunate eruption, somewhere, that I had not seen.

Regrettable.

 

[Peter_J]

All too often angry people type angry posts that are intended to do nothing more than lash out with spite.** I’ve often felt that everyone on CAF should have to post their real life age in their signature file** (maybe CAF should require an authenticated copy of a birth certificate from each member? ), because I can see myself as I acted in my late teens in a lot of the emotionalism that often present.

And then people like Tomyris (and I) reach a boiling point and react.

I’m with Tomyris, and I’m Catholic (except I wouldn’t go so far as to smash statues ).

I think I might have to nominate this for post of the year.

Only thing, maybe posters who are over 30 should have the option to have their profile just say “over 30” rather than an actual number.

 

[Peter_J]

And I did the same thing. That Tomyris post didn’t sound like those I had read in the past, in tone, to my memory. And the reference to threads made me suspect there had been an unfortunate eruption, somewhere, that I had not seen.

Regrettable.

Yeah, I was a bit puzzled when I first read Tomyris’s post. (Though not particularly offended TBH because I know how internet discussion forums can be so I assumed he had reasons for being upset. Which is not to say that I didn’t appreciate the posters who replied to him in defense of the OP. Thank y’all. )

Now a part of me will probably be “bugged” by curiosity as to what exactly I missed this week … but I think it just as well that I didn’t see it. I strongly believe that people give too much attention to bad stuff on the internet (not just stuff from Catholics of course – heck I don’t even go on CARM – but that’s what’s relevant here). But of course it’s kind of a two edged sword: I love when readers pay attention to stuff that I write, but at the same time I’m basically saying “It shouldn’t matter to you what I say. The truth is the truth whether I say it or not.”

 

[GKC]

Yeah, I was a bit puzzled when I first read Tomyris post. (Though not particularly offended TBH because I know how internet discussion forums can be so I assumed he had reasons for being upset. Which is not to say that I didn’t appreciate those posters who replied to him in defense of the OP. Thank y’all. )

Now a part of me will probably be “bugged” by curiosity as to what exactly I missed … but I think it just as well that I didn’t see it. I strongly believe that people give too much attention to bad stuff on the internet (not just stuff from Catholics of course – I don’t even go on CARM – but that’s what’s relevant here). But of course it’s kind of a two edged sword: I love when readers paying attention to stuff that I write, but at the same time I’m basically saying “It shouldn’t matter to you what I say. The truth is the truth whether I say it not.”

I think I found detritus from possibly relevant posts, in a thread still extant. But I can suspect how the winds might have raged.

 

[Wannano]

Thanks for that, james. When I get online I tend to stay in the shallow end of the pool, so to speak. Then i read Tomyris’s post and figured there had been some strange happenings online recently, vis a vis the Blessed Mother, but I didn’t know what.

I think good advice for all posters including myself is that diving into the pool head first from the shallow end is not a good idea!

 

[steve93]

Not to sound disrespectful to the Mother of God, but how does Mary intercede for millions of people in the world at once, since She is/was human, all be it the most holy human (who was human and only human, not to discount the human nature of Christ and the hypostatic union) who ever lived, and not omniscient?

 

[Peter_J]

Interesting that you mentioned birthday songs … I’ll admit that it would feel weird to me if they were sung during mass.

Partly, but not exclusively, in an effort to keep the original topic relevant to the thread, I’m wondering if other Catholics (and GKC ) would be willing to weigh in on the singing of Happy Birthday etc during mass?

 

[GLam8833]

I have to speak up on this one. I’ve not seen in my life people disrespectful to Priests but I know it happens Often unjustifiably because disrespecting a Priest is a tactic those use in attempts to put down Our Lord and Our Church… but as we believe that the Priest stands In Persona Christi, we highly respect them! . They are Jesus to us… Yes Jesus… They baptize and administer sacraments to us, we confess our sins to God through them, they Marry us, they counsel us, they help us in our sufferings and healing by anointing us… I certainly can speak for my circles that we have high regard for Our Priests. In fact, what we do is bring them in prayer to Jesus through Mary because Mary holds the Priests ever so closely as the Mother of Our Lord who is also a Priest, High Priest… and Mary is the Mother of Our Church so it is only right that Mary protect the Priest with her intercessory prayers because the Priest looks out for us because the Priest is married to the Church so watches out for the Church as a Spiritual Father to us… See the Church is one Body of Christ… Different Parts of the Body have different gifts of the Holy Spirit but we are all ONE Body working together honoring the mission of the Church… This is Catholic… Because it may not be what you believe, that doesn’t mean we can’t be able to talk about our differences.

You have convicted me of disrespecting my priest, thanx.
I need to go to confession Today and I think I will apologize
to the priest for doubting that he represents Christ to me.
respectfully, GLam

 

[Vonsalza]

…Holy Scripture, not Luther, is our standard.

Fair enough. For Catholics, the Church established by Christ that produced those scriptures is our standard. Which is awesome, because our ability to answer novel questions didn’t end circa 95AD with the completion of the Johannine epistles.

Entrust ourselves to Mary? Would she not rather us put our trust in her son? …not a good excuse to build an entire theology around Mary as some sort of mediator.

As a convert from the Baptist congregation to the Catholic Church, I “get” some of the hesitancy you show. And understand, some folks here may be a little more “over-board” on Mary than would be healthy - such as holders of the “co-redemptrix” heresy.

But it might be healthy to at least recognize that Pentecostalism, just like every protestant denomination, is trying to restore their vision of “the True, Original, Primitive Church”. And everywhere we look in the first centuries of Christianity, Mary was a “big deal”

I wouldn’t say Mary is a mediator. I would, however, say that she’s an advocate. And when your advocate is the judge’s mom, that works in your favor.

 

[ToeInTheWater]

I wouldn’t say Mary is a mediator. I would, however, say that she’s an advocate. And when your advocate is the judge’s mom, that works in your favor.

I see the smiley face so I am not that offended, but personally, while I find many of the Marian doctrines reasonable, I do find some of the popular piety around them to be off-putting.

I don’t have any problem with the idea that Mary, in her Heavenly Glorified Body, does have the power to hear many prayers/petitions from the faithful and present them to God, in a way a human being living on Earth could never do. I think people who think this makes Mary too “God-like” are too limited in their perceptions of what Heaven is like, they seem to think people who go there remain essentially the same as they were in life, get handed some wings and a halo, and sit around on clouds, but remain otherwise the same.

Some even seem to think people go to Heaven merely due to Grace, so they can even go there with their sins and foibles and attachments to their family members, pets, intact.

But on the same token, I find it too jarringly anthropocentric to compare Mary to the mother of a secular judge. A secular judge may indeed be influenced by his mother more than a standard defense attorney, but it would be considered a conflict of interest to have a secular judge hear pleadings from his own mother.

This idea that “hey, maybe Mary can use her pull with Jesus to your advantage, and he just might give you a wink and nod and a pass to Heaven even though you really should go to Hell” makes Jesus sound like a corruptible human judge from a place like Chicago, not the ultimate Judge who is the ultimate Justice. As Father Ruggerio has stated, it assumes Mary is more merciful than God himself, and that is not the case.

And yes, I do believe it is OK to ask family and friends to pray for you, that the “prayers of a righteous man avaeileth much”, etc. But Protestants who pray for others certainly don’t think that “if Bob prays for Jim, and Bob is a better Christian, then his prayers will work better than Jim’s own prayers”. This kind of “hierarchy of prayer-ers” that seems to exist in Catholic thought, or at least “folk Catholic” thought, is very puzzling from a non-Catholic POV.

 

[exnihilo]

I can say when I was a Protestant I found inconsistent the demonstrations of patriotism given the charges against Catholic practice. I thought it odd that a statue of the mother of God would be idolatry but a flag of the US government not, either both are or neither are. This is of course a generalization. Some Protestants like Mennonites and Quakers have in my opinion a more consistent stance by not having patriotic displays.

Having once been a Protestant, I find this question rather insulting. No Protestant dishonors Mary (dishonor = not honoring). They don’t think of her as we do. They think we go over board in our love for Mary. But you are mixing apples with oranges with this question. Our love for Mary has nothing at all to do with a Protestant Church singing a patriotic song.

I have encountered some Protestants who do really want to take honor away from Mary. In fact I think any who want to deny the perpetual virginity are doing so. To be sure some really do want to deny this. I truly think they are motivated by not wanting Mary to receive honor.

I must admit…and i discussed this with my sponsor and previously with a RCIA director, that there are some within the Church who appear to go overboard with Marian devotion. And i understand why some protestants would perceive it to be worship and not veneration…Because quite frankly, i have a hard time distinguishing the difference myself, depending on the individual in question. Reciting the rosary is one thing, but when you see a person groveling on her face weeping and pleading to a statue of the blessed Mother, it can be a little disturbing.

I agree. I’ve known real life Catholics who are very orthodox today. But the faith they learned as a child was lacking in Jesus with the Blessed Virgin replacing Him in some way.

 

[Peter_J]

Or more precisely, a question for Protestants who don’t believe in honoring Mary by e.g. singing “Hail Holy Queen” in church.

How do you feel about e.g. singing patriotic songs in church?

(Or for that matter, any songs that aren’t strictly about God.)

P.S. I don’t want to make a list of specific songs (though anyone’s certainly welcome to do so) but I’ll at least offer a list of types of songs:

• songs honoring Mary or other saints in heaven (either by name or generally, canonized or uncanonized)
• songs honoring someone having a birthday (or other anniversary/milestone)
• songs at a wedding honoring the bride and groom
• songs at a funeral honoring the deceased
• songs honoring someone being baptized, confirmed, or receiving holy communion for the first time
• songs honoring a civic leader or an entire country
• other songs that aren’t strictly about God

P.P.S. Anyone’s welcome to share your p.o.v. regarding the singing these types of songs in mass or service. You don’t have to be a Protestant.