For Protestants who don't honor Mary ...

[CatholicHockey7]

I will say that many non-Catholic Christians find the idea of any mediator or advocate other than Jesus, to be pointless even if true. When they see Catholics emphasize praying to Mary and the saints the reaction is often, “okay, maybe this isn’t actually worship the same way as we’d worship God, but why should we bother to go through Mary, when we can just pray to Jesus directly?”

After all, Jesus himself gave us the Lord’s prayer, he actually encouraged us to pray to the Father himself, he didn’t say “Don’t dare pray to the Father, you’re too unworthy, you should pray to my mother instead.”

It seems that when confronted with the “why should we even bother to pray to Mary or other saints” question, many Catholics claim that, essentially, God doesn’t really care about a little sinner like you, you need to get Mary and the saints to pray for you, before He’d even pay attention to your woes. This sounds very close to advice for a small grassroots charity to hire some professional lobbyists to be sure their cause gets a hearing in Congress.

And so many non-Catholics conclude “OK, so you want us to join your Church so we can move farther away from Jesus, and not pray to God, but pray to the saint-lobbyists instead? Why in the world would we want to do THAT, why should we give up a personal relationship with Jesus and approach him through intermediaries?”

These are all great questions to be working through. I’ve struggled with them myself at times (and, if I’m being honest, I still do). The best answer I can give right now is that we don’t go to Mary or the Saints to be drawn away from that personal relationship but in recognition of just how strong that relationship really is. By our Baptism we are adopted into God’s family as His children. That relationship means John the Baptist is as much my brother as Jesus (although only one saves me).

Think about the way Christians frequently ask others to pray for them. This form of mediation or “lobbying” doesn’t take away from one’s desire for a personal relationship with Christ, does it? This is the way Catholics understand proper devotion to Mary and the Saints. We are not going to them to replace Jesus, but because we desire to be closer to Jesus.

But the Church does NOT teach that adults still have a duty to obey their parents, they are not obligated to, say, go to medical school because the parents want them to, or to refuse a Priestly vocation if the parents want their son to get married and give them grandkids. It is not “corrupt” to refuse to obey parents when they ask such things.

And not even minor children have the duty to obey their parents, if they command them to sin. Now, I realize Mary would not command Jesus to sin, but that is where this human analogy falls apart.

Well as we’ve already established, all analogies, metaphors and similes fall well short of perfectly capturing Truth. (If anyone isn’t convinced of that, check out this YouTube video of St. Patrick trying to explain the Trinity.)

This does make sense, but then again we get to the question, “Why should we even bother to ask Mary’s assistance, if it doesn’t change what God’s will is for us?”

The answers to that question, so far, are unconvincing to me.

Yay! Something I said made sense! Lol…

The best answer I can give you as to “why bother” is it helps us to grow in our faith. For one thing, Mary always directs us back to her Son, and that’s where we’re trying to go anyways. Second, it helps us grow in humility because we are saying that while we can go to the King of Kings, we recognize our unworthiness to be in His presence and that whatever gifts we bring could never be enough. The analogy used by St. Louis de Montfort is a peasant who brings the king an apple. He gives it to the queen to present on his behalf. She cleans it and places it on a golden dish and presents it to the king.

Hopefully that helps a little. You might also want to read this blog post for another perspective.

 

[ltwin]

As for Grace flowing through Mary, we know that God is unchanging. Hebrews 13:8 - Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever. Malachi 3:6 - I the Lord do not change. James 1:17 - Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.

And we know that while God did not NEED to use Mary, He chose to use Mary to bring Salvation to the world. So, properly understanding that is Christ who is our Savior, we can and should go to Mary asking her to bring us to Christ just as she did by being the Mother of God.

It sounds like you are replacing the Holy Spirit’s ministry with that of Mary’s mediation or intercession. It is the Holy Spirit who “will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment” and guide us into all truth (and Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life) and glorify Christ (John 16).

Knowing that it is the work of the Spirit that reveals Christ to us, having faith in Christ we have no need to ask anyone on earth or in heaven to bring us to Him. He is our High Priest and because of that we can approach the throne of grace ourselves with confidence (Hebrews 4:16).

 

[AbideWithMe]

It sounds like you are replacing the Holy Spirit’s ministry with that of Mary’s mediation or intercession. It is the Holy Spirit who “will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment” and guide us into all truth (and Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life) and glorify Christ (John 16).

Knowing that it is the work of the Spirit that reveals Christ to us, having faith in Christ we have no need to ask anyone on earth or in heaven to bring us to Him. He is our High Priest and because of that we can approach the throne of grace ourselves with confidence (Hebrews 4:16).

CatholicHockey7— I have to agree with this, but I do appreciate the mostly respectful efforts of Catholic posters in this thread.

 

[AbideWithMe]

It’s not so much that disproving the perpetual virginity would disprove other beliefs (though we would have to stop referring to her as “Mary, ever-virgin”). The problem lies more in what it means for us as Christians if Mary had other sons.

We often forget that our faith is an ancient faith, and we disconnect the Scriptures from the historical and cultural context in which they were written. We don’t always mean to do this, but it happens often as a byproduct of trying to apply the Scriptures to our lives today.

One of the things we forget is the law of inheritance. I tried to find the article I read recently about exactly what this means, but the short version is that if Mary had other sons after Jesus - even if they weren’t conceived by the Holy Spirit - they would be his brothers and would take a share of his inheritance before the rest of us who are His adopted brothers and sisters by our Baptism. Basically, Mary having other children sets up a hierarchy of Grace. While this fits with the customs and laws of that time period, it doesn’t fit with what God has revealed to us about Salvation.

I’ll keep looking for the article because it explains it a lot better than I do.

I’m interested in reading that article if you find it. So far, I’m puzzled, because I wouldn’t think of God’s grace as something Mary solely possessed to pass on as a inheritance.

 

[AbideWithMe]

Many Protestants don’t believe in the perpetual virginity. I disagree with them but they are not intending to dishonor her. They honor her as they would a loving good mother. Many see her a the model mother of a large family.

I will always present reasons why I think they are missing the point but I will not accuse them of dishonoring her. She loves them just as much as she loves me. She is not offended in the honor given her as a simple faithful woman.

Thanks for this, HelenRose.

 

[Peter_J]

That is fine and I figured, from the smiley face, that you are acknowledging your statement was an inherently flawed metaphor.

This unfortunately has not been the case for some Catholics whose attitude about Mary is very condescending at best, hostile at worst to those who do not understand or agree with venerating Mary. Now, I don’t think Peter J himself meant to be. But some of the arguments come with a snide insinuation that “Mary’s role as an advocate is so obvious, here’s a simple analogy to prove it, see, can’t even YOU can understand it now, you silly ignorant Mary-hating heretic?” I have also seen what Tomyris described in a more, well, detailed way.

As you say, I didn’t intend any condescension, hostility, etc, but I do regret putting in that clause about the question being for “Protestants who don’t …” anyhow.

At this I’m not glad that some responses focus on the question and not on my misstep.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

It sounds like you are replacing the Holy Spirit’s ministry with that of Mary’s mediation or intercession. It is the Holy Spirit who “will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment” and guide us into all truth (and Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life) and glorify Christ (John 16).

Knowing that it is the work of the Spirit that reveals Christ to us, having faith in Christ we have no need to ask anyone on earth or in heaven to bring us to Him. He is our High Priest and because of that we can approach the throne of grace ourselves with confidence (Hebrews 4:16).

I agree with all this.

We don’t need to go to the blessed Mother, but going to her is not a bad thing whatsoever. When praying the rosary you meditate on Christ in the luminous mysteries. In a sense through the eyes of the person who was/is closest to Him most. If Christ is the head of the body then it is logical to surmise that Mary is the neck.

What is a problem, is people insisting we go to the blessed Mother first to be led to Christ, when that is not something the scriptures or the Church has ever taught. And I see why protestants have extreme caution when Catholics even seem to imply that. Jesus constantly welcomed all, and he never said you must go to my mom first.

Pax

 

[Peter_J]

My church does not sing patriotic songs or have flags in the building. There are many churches that do incorporate these elements into regular worship or have special church services for the celebration of patriotic holidays. I think a small amount of patriotism in church is ok, but it can be taken too far leading to a blurring of the lines between God’s will and national interests.

I’m not sure what I think about churches having flags. I guess it’s hard to form an opinion about something if you don’t have experience of it.

I can see what you mean in the last sentence, it can be taken too far. And not just with patriotism … I’m imagining if I went to a new church and the songs sung during the mass were America the Beautiful, Happy Anniversary, For He’s a Jolly Good Fellow (for someone who recently graduated) and Happy Birthday twice (for two different recent birthdays). I imagine I would be like “Soooo … Are your masses always like this or did I just happen to come on a good week?”

 

[Peter_J]

P.S. I forgot to include “When Irish Eyes Are Smiling” in that last post.

 

[mattp0625]

I agree with all this.

We don’t need to go to the blessed Mother, but going to her is not a bad thing whatsoever. When praying the rosary you meditate on Christ in the luminous mysteries. In a sense through the eyes of the person who was/is closest to Him most. If Christ is the head of the body then it is logical to surmise that Mary is the neck.

What is a problem, is people insisting we go to the blessed Mother first to be led to Christ, when that is not something the scriptures or the Church has ever taught. And I see why protestants have extreme caution when Catholics even seem to imply that. Jesus constantly welcomed all, and he never said you must go to my mom first.

Pax

Do some take it too far? Perhaps. However, I think we know that most Catholics don’t replace the Holy Spirit with the prayers of the communion of saints. It’s both/and rather than either/or as is being portrayed.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Do some take it too far? Perhaps. However, I think we know that most Catholics don’t replace the Holy Spirit with the prayers of the communion of saints. It’s both/and rather than either/or as is being portrayed.

Agree.

What bothers me is the lack of correction to those few who do take it too far. The lack of catechesis. Scared me away from the church for years witnessing some of these folks do what they do.

 

[mattp0625]

Agree.

What bothers me is the lack of correction to those few who do take it too far. The lack of catechesis. Scared me away from the church for years witnessing some of these folks do what they do.

I can understand that as I have heard at least two other converts say the same thing.

Incorporating Louis de Montfort can be difficult or handled inappropriately.

At the same time, I sense the backdrop may be the “Catholics commit idolatry” narrative that is ingrained in some denominations.

Folks on the threads may be sensitive to that.

 

[CatholicHockey7]

Agree.

What bothers me is the lack of correction to those few who do take it too far. The lack of catechesis. Scared me away from the church for years witnessing some of these folks do what they do.

Agreed.

I think part of the problem with correcting those individuals is they are so rarely obvious. It’s hard to really determine when someone has crossed that line because you can’t know what’s in their heart.

From the accounts I’ve heard, some of the people on the previous threads may have crossed that line. But again, that’s hard to know.

And having been on the outside, and having many friends who are non-Catholic (including many who left the Church), I can see how it keeps someone away. If it’s hard for me, someone who has been Catholic for 13 years now and has had some of the best formation available and who is constantly seeking to grow more in my faith, imagine how hard it is for someone outside the Church without that formation to understand what’s going on.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Agree.

What bothers me is the lack of correction to those few who do take it too far. The lack of catechesis. Scared me away from the church for years witnessing some of these folks do what they do.

That is why, in fact, all the world’s Catholic Bishops, when gathered in ecumenical council at Vatican II, declared in Lumen Gentium, in the chapter on the Virgin Mary and the Church’s teaching about her:
Let them assiduously keep away from whatever, either by word or deed, could lead separated brethren or any other into error regarding the true doctrine of the Church
They were very conscious of the problems being confronted.

 

[CatholicHockey7]

CatholicHockey7— I have to agree with this, but I do appreciate the mostly respectful efforts of Catholic posters in this thread.

Didn’t even notice this post the first time through…lol…

I will only speak for myself, but I always try to be respectful and keep in mind the stranger whose words I read on screen is still God’s beloved son or daughter. Oddly enough it’s a lot easier here among strangers than on Facebook…

I’m interested in reading that article if you find it. So far, I’m puzzled, because I wouldn’t think of God’s grace as something Mary solely possessed to pass on as a inheritance.

I’ve tried to find it but I’m having no luck. I’ll keep searching and let you know if I find it.

From what I remember of it, we are not talking about Grace as being something Mary alone possessed. Rather it’s more to do with the promises God makes to us all, and how those promises of our inheritance as the adopted children of God are interpreted differently based on the culture of the time if Jesus had biological brothers as well.

 

[Karen107]

Not to sound disrespectful to the Mother of God, but how does Mary intercede for millions of people in the world at once, since She is/was human, all be it the most holy human (who was human and only human, not to discount the human nature of Christ and the hypostatic union) who ever lived, and not omniscient?

Great question! Mary can intercede (pray for us) because Mary is in heaven sitting along side of Jesus… And Mary knows all as God knows all because she is in Gods heavenly Kingdom and shares in Gods glory… Romans 8:17 …

 

[Karen107]

I agree with all this.

We don’t need to go to the blessed Mother, but going to her is not a bad thing whatsoever. When praying the rosary you meditate on Christ in the luminous mysteries. In a sense through the eyes of the person who was/is closest to Him most. If Christ is the head of the body then it is logical to surmise that Mary is the neck.

What is a problem, is people insisting we go to the blessed Mother first to be led to Christ, when that is not something the scriptures or the Church has ever taught. And I see why protestants have extreme caution when Catholics even seem to imply that. Jesus constantly welcomed all, and he never said you must go to my mom first.

Pax

Actually that insistence is largely based on the wedding of Cana when Mary tells the disciples to do whatever Jesus tells you to do and they went and filled the jars with water which Jesus turned into wine…This shows the connection of God to Mary and how much Mary knew about Jesus more than Jesus may of realized Himself at that point of His life… Mary knew that Jesus was destined for great things!

It shows that unity of family, the same unity we have when we belong to the Church… No we don’t have to go to Jesus through Mary, but when two or more are gathered in His Name, especially with the Mother of Our Lord, nothing but good can come of it… and we have seen this so many times, the fruit of our prayers with Mary has brought on great healing and miracles. That’s why there are so many who flock to apparition sites of Mary… We’re all about spiritual warfare, if we take the whole of the Church together there’s nothing that can stop us but ourselves and our own pride…

 

[Karen107]

Can’t recall Hail Holy Queen in my parish, I must admit.

Regular Sung Angelus, though, yes.

We sing Hail Holy Queen and songs like Salve Regina, on Holy Days where we especially give honor to Mary… As in January 1st , the Solemnity of Mary, August 15, the Solemnity of the Assumption of the* Blessed Virgin Mary, December 8, the solemnity of the Immaculate Conception, and Christmas day… At Daily Mass, we might also sing Marion Songs, like Immaculate Mary just because we love Mary and she has done great things for us… For all generations will call her blessed and do!.. Luke 1:48

 

[Karen107]

It sounds like you are replacing the Holy Spirit’s ministry with that of Mary’s mediation or intercession. It is the Holy Spirit who “will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment” and guide us into all truth (and Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life) and glorify Christ (John 16).

Knowing that it is the work of the Spirit that reveals Christ to us, having faith in Christ we have no need to ask anyone on earth or in heaven to bring us to Him. He is our High Priest and because of that we can approach the throne of grace ourselves with confidence (Hebrews 4:16).

Sure we need the Holy Spirit, but we are also followers of Christ because we have learned from Him directly who has taught it to His disciples and sent them out into the world to teach… And there is Mary, Jesus’ first disciple… Much of the teaching we get is from observance of Jesus… and St Mary… who show us the Way… Jesus being a trailblazer to heaven…

We are followers of Christ, and also we follow each other who have Christ in them… Saint Paul said it and why we honor our Saints as an example of how we should go…

1 Corinthians 1:11 Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ.

We live in spirit and truth… We cant walk in the Spirit and leave truth at the curb… We must learn by the examples of the Holy People who lived before us… The Saints of the Church…This is Catholic…Jesus has commanded us to pray for one another… This is what we do now on earth and in the afterlife! (James 5:16) That is what is meant by intercession with regards to the Saints and us on earth…and Jesus is the Intercessory Mediator between us and the Father…(Hebrews 7:25)

 

[GKC]

We sing Hail Holy Queen and songs like Salve Regina, on Holy Days where we especially give honor to Mary… As in January 1st , the Solemnity of Mary, August 15, the Solemnity of the Assumption of the* Blessed Virgin Mary, December 8, the solemnity of the Immaculate Conception, and Christmas day… At Daily Mass, we might also sing Marion Songs, like Immaculate Mary just because we love Mary and she has done great things for us… For all generations will call her blessed and do!.. Luke 1:48

Doesn’t surprise me. Makes sense.

That an Anglican parish, such as mine, sang the Angelus, had a Mary Shrine (Our Lady of Walsingham), or sang Marian hymns, occasionally does surprise people.