For Protestants who don't honor Mary ...

[Peter_J]

At this I’m not glad that some responses focus on the question and not on my misstep.

That being said, I feel like I should point out that the “for Protestants who …” clause that I unfortunately put in, only referred to one thing about Mary, not half a dozen. I.e. About honoring Mary through song (or not doing so), not about whether you believe in her perpetual virginity, whether she prays for us, and if so whether we should pray to her, etcetera.

Not meaning any offense to anyone, but I feel some have read way too much into “for Protestants who…”

 

[GKC]

That being said, I feel like I should point out that the “for Protestants who …” clause that I unfortunately put in, only referred to one thing about Mary, not half a dozen. I.e. About honoring Mary through song (or not doing so), not about whether you believe in her perpetual virginity, whether she prays for us, and if so whether we should pray to her, etcetera.

Not meaning any offense to anyone, but I feel some have read way too much into “for Protestants who…”

Is it ok if I believe in her perpetual virginity, that she certainly prays for us, and in asking her to pray for us, etcetcetc, anyway?

 

[Peter_J]

Is it ok if I believe in her perpetual virginity, that she certainly prays for us, and in asking her to pray for us

If you’re a Roman Catholic.

 

[GKC]

If you’re a Roman Catholic.

Or an Anglican of a certain type.

You know Anglicans. They’re like a box of chocolates.

Some of them are nuts.

 

[Peter_J]

You know Anglicans. They’re like a box of chocolates.

Some of them are nuts.

Heh. Is your inner Jeff Sessions coming out?

 

[ToeInTheWater]

Think about the way Christians frequently ask others to pray for them. This form of mediation or “lobbying” doesn’t take away from one’s desire for a personal relationship with Christ, does it? This is the way Catholics understand proper devotion to Mary and the Saints. We are not going to them to replace Jesus, but because we desire to be closer to Jesus.

I personally have no problem with the idea that Christians in heaven can pray for Christians on earth. Many Protestants do, they think this attributes saints with godly attributes and hence is blasphemous, but I think this betrays a very anthropocentric idea of Heaven as just a recreated Eden, that people “live” there in the same limited plane of existence as they do on Earth.

I think this is also why many people dread the idea of “no marriage in Heaven” or “no pets in Heaven”, and in case of the pets, often vehemently reject it as “unfair”. Some do so because they think animal souls are equal to human souls, but others do so because “I know I can’t be happy in Heaven without Fido, and what’s the point of going to Heaven if I’m not happy, that means Fido MUST be going to Heaven with me!”

However, I think that many Protestants who pray for each other, see that primarily as a way to strengthen ties between the people involved, and the Christian community in general, not necessarily a way to increase the chances of a positive response to prayer.

And they find it hard to see the “dead Saints” as part of that community, because sure, we could ask them for prayers to help us, but obviously they don’t require OUR prayers to help them, they’re already in Heaven. There is no reciprocal relationship, and that is the big difference between asking the saints to pray for you, and earthly Christians praying “for each other”.

Also, many see Church services and the reception of the Eucharist primarily as an opportunity for Christians to engage in fellowship and “break bread” with each other, more than as a way to get closer to Christ. That is why so many are offended, even hurt, by the idea of “closed Communion”.

The best answer I can give you as to “why bother” is it helps us to grow in our faith. For one thing, Mary always directs us back to her Son, and that’s where we’re trying to go anyways. Second, it helps us grow in humility because we are saying that while we can go to the King of Kings, we recognize our unworthiness to be in His presence and that whatever gifts we bring could never be enough. The analogy used by St. Louis de Montfort is a peasant who brings the king an apple. He gives it to the queen to present on his behalf. She cleans it and places it on a golden dish and presents it to the king.

I understand Marian devotion as an exercise in humility, what I do have a problem is, with people claiming it is actually Catholic belief that we are too unworthy to approach God directly, and therefore, “the only way to Jesus is to go through Mary” as if she is a parish secretary that everyone has to speak to in order to arrange a meeting with the priest.

Now, it seems that is NOT actual Catholic belief, but there is a poster who is stubbornly plugging away in the Spirituality forum with his insistence that a personal devotion to Mary is required for salvation, despite numerous corrections by Father Ruggerio and others.

Hopefully that helps a little. You might also want to read this blog post for another perspective.

The linked post is helpful. Especially this part:

Jesus gave the disciples a role through which others would be saved. Their role was subordinate to that of Jesus, of course, but it was still a true role. Something similar is at work with the intercession of Mary and the saints. It is part of the plan of God, by which he wills that we can help each other along the way of salvation.

But again I come to the question; I can see how the Saints can help us, but how can we help the Saints? And if the Saints don’t need our help, then how can we say that praying to Saints is an example of following God’s will to “help each other”?

I also realize that the question of “why bother praying to Mary” could also be broadened to “why bother praying at all” if God’s will is set in stone? But I will not pursue that question here, as it would take this discussion even more OT than it is now.

Agree.

What bothers me is the lack of correction to those few who do take it too far. The lack of catechesis. Scared me away from the church for years witnessing some of these folks do what they do.

Sadly, I have seen many posts from zealous Marian devotees wave off any warnings that they are in danger of going too far, by claiming something like “It is just impossible to love Mary too much, Jesus loves his Mother more than we ever could”. This kind of attitude really does not make their claims easier to accept.

 

[GKC]

Heh. Is your inner Jeff Sessions coming out?

I got no inners. What you see is what there is.

Sometimes it’s a little elliptical, I must say.

 

[Peter_J]

ToeInTheWater;:

Sadly, I have seen many posts from zealous Marian devotees wave off any warnings that they are in danger of going too far, by claiming something like “It is just impossible to love Mary too much, Jesus loves his Mother more than we ever could”. This kind of attitude really does not make their claims easier to accept.

Well I think it’s impossible to love Mary or anyone else too much; but any Christian, Catholic or otherwise, who would use that to mean that he or she could not possibly be doing something wrong is in serious need of humility.

I don’t have a link, but you might look into St. Francis of Assissi and how he had to correct some of his own friars because they got carried away in their Marian devotions.

P.S. Some might also remember the obsessed woman in C. S. Lewis’ The Great Divorce, but your friend might have a harder time seeing the relevance because the obsession has nothing to do with Mary.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Sadly, I have seen many posts from zealous Marian devotees wave off any warnings that they are in danger of going too far, by claiming something like “It is just impossible to love Mary too much, Jesus loves his Mother more than we ever could”. This kind of attitude really does not make their claims easier to accept.

Anyone who has been the victim of a stalker can state categorically that there are people who love too much…in the sense that they love in a way that is warped, that is distorted, that is disordered, and that is fundamentally unhealthy. It is a love that can be termed “fanatical.”

 

[Lenten_ashes]

I personally have no problem with the idea that Christians in heaven can pray for Christians on earth. Many Protestants do, they think this attributes saints with godly attributes and hence is blasphemous, but I think this betrays a very anthropocentric idea of Heaven as just a recreated Eden, that people “live” there in the same limited plane of existence as they do on Earth.

I think this is also why many people dread the idea of “no marriage in Heaven” or “no pets in Heaven”, and in case of the pets, often vehemently reject it as “unfair”. Some do so because they think animal souls are equal to human souls, but others do so because “I know I can’t be happy in Heaven without Fido, and what’s the point of going to Heaven if I’m not happy, that means Fido MUST be going to Heaven with me!”

However, I think that many Protestants who pray for each other, see that primarily as a way to strengthen ties between the people involved, and the Christian community in general, not necessarily a way to increase the chances of a positive response to prayer.

And they find it hard to see the “dead Saints” as part of that community, because sure, we could ask them for prayers to help us, but obviously they don’t require OUR prayers to help them, they’re already in Heaven. There is no reciprocal relationship, and that is the big difference between asking the saints to pray for you, and earthly Christians praying “for each other”.

Also, many see Church services and the reception of the Eucharist primarily as an opportunity for Christians to engage in fellowship and “break bread” with each other, more than as a way to get closer to Christ. That is why so many are offended, even hurt, by the idea of “closed Communion”.

I understand Marian devotion as an exercise in humility, what I do have a problem is, with people claiming it is actually Catholic belief that we are too unworthy to approach God directly, and therefore, “the only way to Jesus is to go through Mary” as if she is a parish secretary that everyone has to speak to in order to arrange a meeting with the priest.

Now, it seems that is NOT actual Catholic belief, but there is a poster who is stubbornly plugging away in the Spirituality forum with his insistence that a personal devotion to Mary is required for salvation, despite numerous corrections by Father Ruggerio and others.

The linked post is helpful. Especially this part:

But again I come to the question; I can see how the Saints can help us, but how can we help the Saints? And if the Saints don’t need our help, then how can we say that praying to Saints is an example of following God’s will to “help each other”?

I also realize that the question of “why bother praying to Mary” could also be broadened to “why bother praying at all” if God’s will is set in stone? But I will not pursue that question here, as it would take this discussion even more OT than it is now.

Sadly, I have seen many posts from zealous Marian devotees wave off any warnings that they are in danger of going too far, by claiming something like “It is just impossible to love Mary too much, Jesus loves his Mother more than we ever could”. This kind of attitude really does not make their claims easier to accept.

I have to agree this is not a very convincing argument for Marian devotion. What’s more convincing is using reason. No other person on earth was closer to him than she was. And it was not uncommon for the mother of Kings of that era to be considered the queen…and often be petioned because it was common knowledge that rarely was she ever turned down by the King. Cana, cited by Karen, is a solid example.

That’s understandable if you know your stuff…but if you are lacking catechesis you could easily gain the false impression that Marian devotion is a requirement for prayer to be answered. That kind of mentality borders on idolatry imo. Though culpability is another issue.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

That is why, in fact, all the world’s Catholic Bishops, when gathered in ecumenical council at Vatican II, declared in Lumen Gentium, in the chapter on the Virgin Mary and the Church’s teaching about her:
Let them assiduously keep away from whatever, either by word or deed, could lead separated brethren or any other into error regarding the true doctrine of the Church
They were very conscious of the problems being confronted.

Assuring to know that.

Thank you, Father.

 

[ToeInTheWater]

Anyone who has been the victim of a stalker can state categorically that there are people who love too much…in the sense that they love in a way that is warped, that is distorted, that is disordered, and that is fundamentally unhealthy. It is a love that can be termed “fanatical.”

I can also think of parents who beat their children out of “love”, or those who gratify their every whim out of “love”, or neglect their education out of “love”.

I can think of one mother who desperately wanted her son, a classic “ne’er-do-well”, to carry on the family business. In support of this goal, she literally did all his homework for him, wrote all his term papers for him, even in college.

Some of her friends did point out, that he wasn’t actually learning anything to help him run the business once he inherited it, but she claimed “oh he can just hire people to help him”. Of course she claimed to love her son, too, but I found her behavior to border on child abuse.

Now, at least those who love Mary in an unhealthy way don’t have the power to actually harm her. Though I do wonder, since some people actually do hate Mary, does that grieve her? If that does, and some wind up hating Mary as a reaction to such fanatical love of her by others, perhaps such people are actually hurting Mary.

And if all Mary wants to do is to guide people to Jesus, I am sure it would grieve her to know some people, for example, believe she is the only merciful one in Heaven, and deny the mercy of her Son.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

I can also think of parents who beat their children out of “love”, or those who gratify their every whim out of “love”, or neglect their education out of “love”.

I can think of one mother who desperately wanted her son, a classic “ne’er-do-well”, to carry on the family business. In support of this goal, she literally did all his homework for him, wrote all his term papers for him, even in college.

Some of her friends did point out, that he wasn’t actually learning anything to help him run the business once he inherited it, but she claimed “oh he can just hire people to help him”. Of course she claimed to love her son, too, but I found her behavior to border on child abuse.

Now, at least those who love Mary in an unhealthy way don’t have the power to actually harm her. Though I do wonder, since some people actually do hate Mary, does that grieve her? If that does, and some wind up hating Mary as a reaction to such fanatical love of her by others, perhaps such people are actually hurting Mary.

And if all Mary wants to do is to guide people to Jesus, I am sure it would grieve her to know some people, for example, believe she is the only merciful one in Heaven, and deny the mercy of her Son.

It is tragic to encounter in one’s pastoral ministry the harm that is done by disordered and destructive love, even simply on the natural level of persons relating to each other in human relationships…to the person who is loving in this way and to the person who is on the receiving end of this love.

When this happens on the spiritual plane, it just as tragic…whether the person becomes a member of a cult or otherwise shows that they are, in fact, disordered.

In an absolute sense, of course, the Virgin Mary cannot be harmed because she is beyond the reach of such things, living in the Divine Presence.

On the other hand, relatively speaking, harm is done to her when she is dishonored by practices that are, in fact, disordered. These practices are particularly harmful in their consequences to the person himself/herself, whose disordered behaviour is being reinforced by their actions. They are also harmful to those impacted by the person and his or her disorder.

Those who witness it, moreover, can be scandalously misled to attribute to the Church a mind and pattern of thought that the Church not only does not possess but absolutely rejects. So these people, too, are also harmed.

Having more of a preoccupation about a sacramental connected with the Blessed Virgin at the end of life, for example, than the Church’s pastoral care for the dying, through the sacraments that the Church received from Christ, does not honour the Blessed Virgin…it dishonours her. Do we think an article of devotion, a piece of cloth that is blessed, is more efficacious than “outward signs, instituted by Christ that give grace” – the sacraments which He Himself instituted for us?

In any way implying that the Mother of Jesus is more merciful, compassionate, or understanding than God incarnate, Jesus, whose very name means saviour, does not honour the Mother of Jesus, it dishonours her.

It is she herself, in the Magnificat, that testifies that His mercy and His favour is from generation to generation on those devoted to Him, not those who apply to her – and that she is herself the beneficiary of this Divine Mercy. As a human person, she was in need of redemption herself, which was given to her in a singular way.

Hers is a very special role in salvation history. Hers is an utterly unique relationship with Jesus. But Jesus is the Redeemer. He and He alone effected the Redemption. The public ministry of Jesus is about Him. His words. His deeds. His example. These are all His and they are from Him.

Our focus is on Him, realising that in this focus, she can be glimpsed and discovered and encountered. For some people, that can be of benefit…for some, more…for some, less.

 

[Peter_J]

Now, at least those who love Mary in an unhealthy way don’t have the power to actually harm her. Though I do wonder, since some people actually do hate Mary, does that grieve her? If that does, and some wind up hating Mary as a reaction to such fanatical love of her by others, perhaps such people are actually hurting Mary.

I think Father’s response to this question already knocked it out of the park, but let me just mention that Scott and Kimberly Hahn’s book also spoke about Catholics who dishonor Mary under the guise of honoring her.

 

[CatholicHockey7]

It is tragic to encounter in one’s pastoral ministry the harm that is done by disordered and destructive love, even simply on the natural level of persons relating to each other in human relationships…to the person who is loving in this way and to the person who is on the receiving end of this love.

When this happens on the spiritual plane, it just as tragic…whether the person becomes a member of a cult or otherwise shows that they are, in fact, disordered.

In an absolute sense, of course, the Virgin Mary cannot be harmed because she is beyond the reach of such things, living in the Divine Presence.

On the other hand, relatively speaking, harm is done to her when she is dishonored by practices that are, in fact, disordered. These practices are particularly harmful in their consequences to the person himself/herself, whose disordered behaviour is being reinforced by their actions. They are also harmful to those impacted by the person and his or her disorder.

Those who witness it, moreover, can be scandalously misled to attribute to the Church a mind and pattern of thought that the Church not only does not possess but absolutely rejects. So these people, too, are also harmed.

Having more of a preoccupation about a sacramental connected with the Blessed Virgin at the end of life, for example, than the Church’s pastoral care for the dying, through the sacraments that the Church received from Christ, does not honour the Blessed Virgin…it dishonours her. Do we think an article of devotion, a piece of cloth that is blessed, is more efficacious than “outward signs, instituted by Christ that give grace” – the sacraments which He Himself instituted for us?

In any way implying that the Mother of Jesus is more merciful, compassionate, or understanding than God incarnate, Jesus, whose very name means saviour, does not honour the Mother of Jesus, it dishonours her.

It is she herself, in the Magnificat, that testifies that His mercy and His favour is from generation to generation on those devoted to Him, not those who apply to her – and that she is herself the beneficiary of this Divine Mercy. As a human person, she was in need of redemption herself, which was given to her in a singular way.

Hers is a very special role in salvation history. Hers is an utterly unique relationship with Jesus. But Jesus is the Redeemer. He and He alone effected the Redemption. The public ministry of Jesus is about Him. His words. His deeds. His example. These are all His and they are from Him.

Our focus is on Him, realising that in this focus, she can be glimpsed and discovered and encountered. For some people, that can be of benefit…for some, more…for some, less.

This is absolutely beautiful.

My only addition is to say we cannot fully understand Mary (or any Church teachings) without knowing Christ. Likewise, we cannot fully know Christ without proper knowledge of His mother.

To use an analogy (sorry, Toe), you can get to know me and have a good idea who I am, but unless you’ve met my family and get to know them you will have a hard time fully understanding me.

 

[Karen107]

But again I come to the question; I can see how the Saints can help us, but how can we help the Saints? .

Hi Toe… Let me try to explain and I hope I say this clearly… The Fathers will for the Saints is to pray for us to help us get to heaven. How we can help the Saints is by following their examples and help others who are in this life by doing either spiritual or corporal works of Mercy which helps others get to heaven. So in turn the Saints prayers for us help them do Gods will in bringing people to God. And when they are helping God and it brings them even MORE great JOY in the Risen Lord…! Helping God is their reward!

Luke 6: 35*But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked.

And if the Saints don’t need our help, then how can we say that praying to Saints is an example of following God’s will to “help each other”?

.

But they do need our help!.. read above…We are Gods instruments in the world… We live in the physical world and the Saints are in heaven so the Saints can’t help people in the dark be enlightened by the gospels unless we share the good news of Jesus Christ with them! The Kingdom of God is on Earth and in Heaven. If we work together with the Saints all will be Resurrected on the Last Day! The Saints will help us get there!

 

[Wannano]

This is absolutely beautiful.

My only addition is to say we cannot fully understand Mary (or any Church teachings) without knowing Christ. Likewise, we cannot fully know Christ without proper knowledge of His mother.

To use an analogy (sorry, Toe), you can get to know me and have a good idea who I am, but unless you’ve met my family and get to know them you will have a hard time fully understanding me.

I agree that Father Ruggero’s presentation was well thought through and complete. Your addition saying “we cannot fully know Christ without proper knowledge of His mother” negates some of what Father Ruggero just said in my opinion.

 

[Karen107]

I agree that Father Ruggero’s presentation was well thought through and complete. Your addition saying “we cannot fully know Christ without proper knowledge of His mother” negates some of what Father Ruggero just said in my opinion.

Just peeping in here for a sec…

I read what hockey wrote. I mean. you might say that you know a person better having met their mother…lol My husband says all the time he knew that I was the person he wanted to be with because he met my mother. lol I’ve heard it said that we can’t love what we don’t know. Maybe that’s where he’s coming from…The more we know Jesus the more we grow in the love we have for Jesus because our relationship with Jesus grows as we get to know Jesus and Mary.

 

[CatholicHockey7]

I agree that Father Ruggero’s presentation was well thought through and complete. Your addition saying “we cannot fully know Christ without proper knowledge of His mother” negates some of what Father Ruggero just said in my opinion.

Can you give me an example of where you think I’ve negated his comment?

It certainly wasn’t my intention to do so, and I’d like to see if the problem was lack of clarity on my part, or just simply me being wrong (wouldn’t be the first time, which is why I’m thankful for people like Fr. Ruggero who are more learned in this area)

 

[Wannano]

Can you give me an example of where you think I’ve negated his comment?

It certainly wasn’t my intention to do so, and I’d like to see if the problem was lack of clarity on my part, or just simply me being wrong (wouldn’t be the first time, which is why I’m thankful for people like Fr. Ruggero who are more learned in this area)

Father Ruggero summed it up in his last sentence. " Our focus is on Him,realising that in this focus, she can be glimpsed and discovered and encountered."

Weren’t you suggesting we can’t fully know Jesus without having proper knowledge of Mary?