For Protestants who don't honor Mary ...

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Obviously I don’t want to speak for someone I don’t know, but in the statement “unless you’ve met my family and get to know them you will have a hard time fully understanding me” I think it’s important to stress the “fully” qualifier.

Whereas if someone said simply “You can’t know me without knowing my family” then I would (obviously?) object.
 
Obviously I don’t want to speak for someone I don’t know, but in the statement “unless you’ve met my family and get to know them you will have a hard time fully understanding me” I think it’s important to stress the “fully” qualifier.

Whereas if someone said simply “You can’t know me without knowing my family” then I would (obviously?) object.
Not sure what you are driving at! :o
 
This is absolutely beautiful.

My only addition is to say we cannot fully understand Mary (or any Church teachings) without knowing Christ. Likewise, we cannot fully know Christ without proper knowledge of His mother.

To use an analogy (sorry, Toe), you can get to know me and have a good idea who I am, but unless you’ve met my family and get to know them you will have a hard time fully understanding me.
By the way I do agree with you that we cannot fully understand the Church teachings without knowing Christ. Too many think they know Christ because they know what their church teaches or think it teaches.
 
Just because Luther was correct about some things does not mean he has to be correct about everything. Protestants agree that the Scriptures alone are the one infallible source of all church teaching. By accepting that Luther was indeed right about sola scriptura we also admit that indeed Luther could be and probably was wrong about other stuff.Luckily, we don’t have to just take Luther’s word on anything. Holy Scripture, not Luther, is our standard.
If you are interested, here’s some information to consider

These are all quick reads. I think you’ll appreciate reading them.

Re: infallible scripture
catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/the-bible-is-not-infallible

Re: sola scriptura , reasons why sola scriptura is not scriptural
  1. catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/why-im-catholic-sola-scriptura-isnt-scriptural-part-i
  2. catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/why-im-catholic-sola-scriptura-isnt-scriptural-part-ii
  3. catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/why-im-catholic-sola-scriptura-isnt-scriptural-part-iii
  4. catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/why-im-catholic-sola-scriptura-isnt-scriptural-part-iv
  5. catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/why-im-catholic-sola-scriptura-isnt-scriptural-part-v
I:
Entrust ourselves to Mary? Would she not rather us put our trust in her son? Mary was his mother. He loved her as his mother, and she loved him as a son. Nothing can take away from that relationship, but the mere fact that they had a Mother-Son relationship is not a good excuse to build an entire theology around Mary as some sort of mediator.
Definitionally,

Anytime one goes through someone else to get to others, that’s by definition, mediation. And that person that is the go between, is a mediator.by definition
I:
Grace didn’t enter the world through Mary. The incarnation of course could not have happened without Mary, and she was highly favored and blessed among all people to have been chosen by God. But God’s grace was already at work within the world even before Mary herself was born.
Isn’t Jesus the font of ALL grace? Who did the font of ALL grace literally go through to get to us? Mary

Who was the first person to call Mary Mother of God? Elizabeth, Mary’s cousin.
I:
As for grace flowing through Mary today, where are we taught that in Scripture?
When we ask Mary to pray for us, do you think her sway with her son is insignificant or huge?
I:
What Scripture tells me is that it is"by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God" (Ephesians 2:8). Since Mary was a human and in need of a savior also, she was saved by grace through faith in Christ Jesus.
All True.

She is the best of all humans. As the Angel Gabriel stated, She IS “full of grace”. And her faith went along with it.

Now she is glorified. And as a good mother, she takes care of her children, because Satan is making war on her children, those who follow her son Rev 12:17
I:
That in no way diminishes her life and meaning to the church today.* She is a role model for us* all, pointing us to her son and encouraging us to "Do whatever he tells you" (John 2:5).
And that means It’s time for you to join His Church. The Catholic Church #34

all internal links in that link are operational
 
If you are interested, here’s some information to consider

These are all quick reads. I think you’ll appreciate reading them.

Re: infallible scripture
catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/the-bible-is-not-infallible

Re: sola scriptura , reasons why sola scriptura is not scriptural
  1. catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/why-im-catholic-sola-scriptura-isnt-scriptural-part-i
  2. catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/why-im-catholic-sola-scriptura-isnt-scriptural-part-ii
  3. catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/why-im-catholic-sola-scriptura-isnt-scriptural-part-iii
  4. catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/why-im-catholic-sola-scriptura-isnt-scriptural-part-iv
  5. catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/why-im-catholic-sola-scriptura-isnt-scriptural-part-v
Definitionally,

Anytime one goes through someone else to get to others, that’s by definition, mediation. And that person that is the go between, is a mediator.by definition

Isn’t Jesus the font of ALL grace? Who did the font of ALL grace literally go through to get to us? Mary

Who was the first person to call Mary Mother of God? Elizabeth, Mary’s cousin.

When we ask Mary to pray for us, do you think her sway with her son is insignificant or huge?

All True.

She is the best of all humans. As the Angel Gabriel stated, She IS “full of grace”. And her faith went along with it.

Now she is glorified. And as a good mother, she takes care of her children, because Satan is making war on her children, those who follow her son Rev 12:17

And that means It’s time for you to join His Church. The Catholic Church #34

all internal links in that link are operational
Prostelyzation will not get you anywhere on this forum. Read the statement by Father Ruggero.
 
Obviously I don’t want to speak for someone I don’t know, but in the statement “unless you’ve met my family and get to know them you will have a hard time fully understanding me” I think it’s important to stress the “fully” qualifier.

Whereas if someone said simply “You can’t know me without knowing my family” then I would (obviously?) object.
Hi Peter…Relationships grow stronger as one learns more about the other person. I mean if you didn’t know anything about another person you might not have a very strong relationship with them. 🤷 I have often heard people say that Catholics do not have a relationship with Jesus Christ. Well yes we have a relationship with Jesus Christ very much because we get to know Jesus and His roots seeded in scripture which includes learning about His Mother… So that relationship with Jesus develops through the scriptures, the sacraments, in everything that we do, learning about the people surrounding Jesus life, and our loving friendship with Our Lord grows and so does our ‘relationship’.

Would it make sense to you that unless you fully understood the role that Mary played in the role of Salvation, being the Ark of the New and Eternal Covenant, the New Eve you might not understand why Jesus is considered our Savior, beyond a ‘feeling’ that Jesus is our Savior? I mean through the scriptures we come to know Jesus more fully, and Mary is very much a part of the scriptures and very much a part of the family of God written about in Scriptures and in our every day life… In fact as I understand it, most people who live the consecrated life also have a strong Marian devotion because they’ve come to know Jesus and Mary. So in a sense I hope you can see how you aren’t able to know Jesus ‘fully’ unless you learn about Jesus’ Mom and have some devotion to her.🤷 Yes it’s possible to know Jesus, but ‘fully’? That’s the word I’m having trouble with.
 
Prostelyzation will not get you anywhere on this forum. Read the statement by Father Ruggero.
I try and answer peoples issues, misperceptions, and I Invite people to the faith and the Church Jesus established. That’s what I do. And I provide evidence to support what I ask someone to look at. Just as they have their points of view.

What reference(s), out of ALL THOSE references I gave, do you have a problem with?
 
By the way I do agree with you that we cannot fully understand the Church teachings without knowing Christ. Too many think they know Christ because they know what their church teaches or think it teaches.
Perhaps a person could have an encounter with Jesus while learning about the Church teachings? Ie. if the person read the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which has references to scripture. . I believe they could have an encounter with Jesus… Who’s to say then what would actually bring about that ‘ah ha’ moment of conversion…, Who’s to say what touches the hearts of men? For many it’s Mary who brings souls to Christ… 🙂
 
Father Ruggero summed it up in his last sentence. " Our focus is on Him,realising that in this focus, she can be glimpsed and discovered and encountered."

Weren’t you suggesting we can’t fully know Jesus without having proper knowledge of Mary?
Yes, as others have said, I believe we cannot fully know Christ without properly understand Mary. That’s not to say you cannot have a relationship with Him or know Him at all. I also said in my OP that we cannot understand Mary apart from Christ, which I believe is in keeping with Fr. Ruggero’s comment. Christ is still the focus of everything.

We don’t go to Mary seeking Mary for the sake of Mary. We go to Mary seeking to get closer to Jesus. Each of the Marian Dogmas reveals something about Christ, deepening our understanding of Him and the wonders of His saving love for us. But without Christ, Mary would really be “just a woman,” as a friend of mine once said.

Hopefully that helps make more sense of the original comment. If not, let me know. Happy to keep trying 😉
 
I try and answer peoples issues, and I Invite people to the faith and the Church Jesus established. That’s what I do. And I provide evidence to support what I ask someone to look at.

What reference(s), out of ALL THOSE references I gave, do you have a problem with?
If you want to see the problem I have with your interpretation look at the thread which Father referred to.
 
Perhaps a person could have an encounter with Jesus while learning about the Church teachings? Ie. if the person read the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which has references to scripture. . I believe they could have an encounter with Jesus… Who’s to say then what would actually bring about that ‘ah ha’ moment of conversion…, Who’s to say what touches the hearts of men? For many it’s Mary who brings souls to Christ… 🙂
God bless Karen107 and every readers of the CAF,

I don’t want to change your post, I only like add to it.

DEI VERBUM 21

Quote: CATHOLIC SENSIBILITY, DEI VERBUM 21

The Church has always VENERATED the divine Scriptures JUST AS she VENERATED the body of the Lord, since, especially in the sacred liturgy, she unceasingly receives and offers to the faithful THE BREAD OF LIFE from the table of BOTH of GOD’S WORD and of CHRIST’S BODY.

For in the sacred books, the Father who is in heaven meets His children with great love and speaks with them; and THE FORCE AND POWER IN THE WORD OF GOD IS SO GREAT THAT IT IS STANDS AS THE SUPPORT AND ENERGY OF THE CHURCH, THE STRINGS OF FAITH for Her (children), THE FOOD OF THE SOUL, THE PURE AND EVERLASTING SOURCE OF SPIRITUAL LIFE.

“For the WORD OF GOD IS LIVING AND ACTIVE” (Hebr.4:12) and it **HAS THE POWER TO BUILD YOU UP and give you your heritage among all those who are sanctified. (Acts 20:32) ** End quote.

THE SCRIPTURES referred to as the “BREAD OF LIFE”** in direct association with a reference to the Eucharist.**
Please see: John 1:1; Matt.4:4; Luke 4:4.

We have access and **we are able to eat the “BREAD OF LIFE” in TWO ways: **
The Church offers to the faithful the bread of life FROM THE EUCHARISTIC table of BOTH of GOD’S WORD and CHRIST’S BODY.

When in faith, we are READING or HEARING the Word of God we consuming the BREAD OF LIFE, in which He (Jesus), Himself is consumed and we unite ourselves to Christ.

The Catholic Understanding of the Bible by Fr. John Harden SJ.

Quote: “The Scriptures are holy because their main author is the all-holy God. But they are also holy because they are able to sanctify those who READ the Bible as NO OTHER LITERATURE in the world is capable of doing.

**St. Thomas does not hesitate to speak of the Scriptures as a KIND OF SACRAMENT.

SIMULAR to what happens when we receive BAPTISM or the EUCHARIST.**

The same Holy Spirit who first inspired the Bible CONTINUES TO ENLIGHTEN those who now READ the Bible.” End quote. Emphasize mine.

WE CANNOT OVER EMPHASIS!

When in faith, READING or HEARING the Word of God we are consuming the BREAD OF LIFE, in which He (Jesus), Himself is consumed and we unite ourselves to Christ.

[CCC 108]; Still, the Christian faith is not a “religion of the book.”
Christianity is a religion of the “Word” of God, “not a written and mute word, but incarnate and living.”
If the Scriptures are not remain a dead letter, Christ, the eternal Word of the living God, must, through the Holy Spirit, “open [our] minds to understand the Scriptures.” End quote.

The Lamb’s Supper by Scott Hahn Page 48

Quote: One of the great Scripture scholars of the early church, Origen (third century), urged Christians TO RESPECT CHRIST’S PRESENTS IN THE GOSPEL as they RESPECT HIS PRESENCE IN THE HOST.

“You who are accustomed to take part in the divine mysteries know, when you receive the body of the Lord, how you protect it with all caution and veneration lest any small part fall from it, lest anything of the consecrated gift be lost.

For you believe, and correctly, that you are answerable if anything falls from there by neglect.

But if you are so careful to preserve His body, and rightly so, HOW DO YOU THINK THAT THERE IS LESS GUILT TO HAVE NEGLECTED GOD’S WORD THAT TO HAVE NEGLECTED HIS BODY?” End quote.

ACCORDING TO ST. JEROME

This famous excerpt from Jerome’s Commentary on Isaiah (Nn. 1.2: CCL 73, 1-3) is used in the Roman Office of Readings for the Feast (liturgical memorial) of St. Jerome on September 30.

In it, St. Jerome firmly insists that ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. A strong exhortation from a Father and Doctor of the Catholic Church to Christians urging all to recognize that serious Bible study is a necessity, not an optional luxury. End quote.

SUMMARY

**Christ, the eternal Word of the living God, must, through the Holy Spirit, “open [our] minds to understand the Scriptures.” **

The same Holy Spirit who first inspired the Bible CONTINUES TO ENLIGHTEN those who now READ the Bible.”

Those who misinterpret the Bible is their own mistake because they don’t listen the voice and the interpretation of the Holy Spirit.

God bless,

LatinRight
 
Not sure what you are driving at! :o
Alright. I’m not entirely sure how to clarify but I’ll try.

Concerning the importance of the difference between “unless you’ve met my family and get to know them you will have a hard time fully understanding me” on the one hand, and “You can’t know me without knowing my family” consider if someone said the latter and I replied “okay, but then how can I know your mother without knowing her mother?”
 
Alright. I’m not entirely sure how to clarify but I’ll try.

Concerning the importance of the difference between “unless you’ve met my family and get to know them you will have a hard time fully understanding me” on the one hand, and “You can’t know me without knowing my family” consider if someone said the latter and I replied “okay, but then how can I know your mother without knowing her mother?”
Any chance we can meet your family?😛
 
Yes, as others have said, I believe we cannot fully know Christ without properly understand Mary. That’s not to say you cannot have a relationship with Him or know Him at all. I also said in my OP that we cannot understand Mary apart from Christ, which I believe is in keeping with Fr. Ruggero’s comment. Christ is still the focus of everything.

We don’t go to Mary seeking Mary for the sake of Mary. We go to Mary seeking to get closer to Jesus. Each of the Marian Dogmas reveals something about Christ, deepening our understanding of Him and the wonders of His saving love for us. But without Christ, Mary would really be “just a woman,” as a friend of mine once said.

Hopefully that helps make more sense of the original comment. If not, let me know. Happy to keep trying 😉
I hope you can understand that as a person who has only been taught what is in the Bible I am unfamiliar with Marian Dogmas.

Jesus did explain how to know Him fully in Mark 14:21. “He that hath my commandments, and keeps them,he it is that loves
me: and he that loves me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will MANIFEST MY SELF TO HIM.”

I honor Mary as the mother of Jesus. I do not mean to downplay her significance.
 
Prostelyzation will not get you anywhere on this forum. Read the statement by Father Ruggero.
You are indeed correct.

Which is why Pope Francis has utterly conndemned attempts to proselytise.

We are grateful to live in the era after Vatican II, which understood the divine imperative of the ecumenical movement and which traced a new path, so well exemplified by Saint John XXIII, Blessed Paul VI, Venerable John Paul I, Saint John Paul II and Pope Benedict and Pope Francis.

The ways of the past are consigned to the past.
 
My only addition is to say we cannot fully understand Mary (or any Church teachings) without knowing Christ. Likewise, we cannot fully know Christ without proper knowledge of His mother.

To use an analogy (sorry, Toe), you can get to know me and have a good idea who I am, but unless you’ve met my family and get to know them you will have a hard time fully understanding me.
By way of addressing the concerns others have raised about how this interacts with what I wrote, I would only say that I would agree with one direction you allude to…we cannot know Mary without knowing Christ. By analogy, she is to her Son what the Moon is to the Sun. She reflects Him but generates no light of her own.

Since she stored the words and deeds of Jesus in her heart and treasured them, one can extrapolate that she will embody and live out what He taught by word and example. From a Catholic perspective and an Orthodox perspective, she would be a singular portrait…a personification or embodiment almost of His words and example…a sort of living icon of what He taught. That is, once again and of course, a perspective that would not be thus articulated by Christians of the many other confessions.

But in the reverse direction, what is it you are discovering of Christ? He is the Logos in human flesh. He brings to His assumed human nature the perfection that is proper to His Divine Personhood. Are there human attitudes He possessed that reflected patterns of behaviour from His mother, as but one example? I would expect so, in so far as the assumed human nature acquired knowledge according to the mode of a human intellect…but there is so little that we know of her, or about her, that there is nothing to say about it.

Interestingly, the Word made Flesh chose to live a human life for some 30 of 33 years, more or less, in utter obscurity and, according to the Divine Plan, almost nothing of that is known or knowable.
 
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