For real...why are the SSPX always singled out and picked on?

[michaeldaniels]

For the record…I am a traditional Catholic in FULL Communion with The Holy See…I am not a member of the SSPX or any other type of fraternity, group, independent church, etc…I am simply a Catholic that loves Tradition and I am very, very conservative…I hate to see a lot stuff I see going on in Churches today. With that said, I totally know the whole background with the ordinations/consecrations, etc that led to the problems the SSPX are facing with Rome…I don’t need any background on that. My question is why today, over 20 years after this all went down do people still give them such a hard time? It seems to me that they are just a group of Catholics who don’t want to see our Church destroyed by the Modernists and I am thankful we were blessed to have them fight for the TLM…because it could have very well become a distant memory to all of us if they hadn’t been fighting for its preservation all these years. Granted there are a lot of issues that need to be worked out between the SSPX and Rome, but I think as a whole a lot of Catholics outside of SSPX make it a lot harder for that reconciliation to occur…at least they impede the progress. We should be opening our arms and doing everything we can to welcome them back to our Church…we need them!!! Instead, we have a bunch of people bickering and listing reasons why they can’t be in Communion…to be honest, it makes me sick.

My final question is why do we persecute the SSPX and their Bishops and their Clergy…meanwhile, we (The Church, i.e. The Pope all the way down to all lay people) allow rogue Bishops like Mahony to retain full faculties and run an Arch-Diocese that has proven time and time again to spread heresies…and blatantly ignore The Pope…not just him, but people like Fr. Jenkins at Notre Dame…Catholic politicians who openly defy the Church…Shouldn’t they all be excommunicated and faculties removed…their lies, indifference, incompetence, disobedience, and actions have wounded The Church a heck of a lot worse than the SSPX could ever do…The SSPX are guilty of one thing, wanting to hold fast to Tradition, The Latin Mass, and Church Teaching…the liberals and modernists are in violation of blatant heresy, etc…they are responsible for leading astray countless souls and placing Our Church in the current crisis we are experiencing today…As an educated and reasonable man, this doesn’t make a lick of sense to me. It is totally shameful. Can you explain it please?

 

[RosaryCrusader]

Diabolical disorientation - Sr. Lucia

 

[michaeldaniels]

I can agree with that…there is a lot of that going on today.

Diabolical disorientation - Sr. Lucia

 

[Joe_5859]

The SSPX are guilty of one thing, wanting to hold fast to Tradition, The Latin Mass, and Church Teaching.

Well, if that’s all they were “guilty” of, there wouldn’t be a problem.

I think that one reason the SSPX is “singled out” is because they are the most visible of the “Traditional” groups. There are lots of sedevacantist splinter groups (I know that the SSPX is not a sedevacantist group), but those groups are on the fringe and few people take them seriously. SSPX has become sort of the poster child for “Tradition”.

I understand the criticism. When people see all this crazy heterodox stuff going on, it’s natural to wonder why the SSPX gets “picked on.” I think one of the main reasons is that the SSPX was born from a clearly schismatic act. Lefebvre said he was going to consecrate four bishops. The Vatican told him not to and warned him that doing so would result in excommunication as per Canon Law. He did it anyway. Thus, he was excommunicated. The situation is very cut-and-dry. It’s all neatly laid out in Canon Law.

With certain other modern tendencies, it is not so clear cut. None of these “liberal” bishops have ever been issued (to my recollection) a directive from the Vatican stating that, per Canon Law, performing this or that action will result in their excommunication.

We should bear in mind that excommunicating a bishop is not something the Pope is going to do lightly. It is a huge deal. And he’s not going to do it simply because some of us lay people think it would be a good idea.

 

[Spencerian]

For the record…I am a traditional Catholic in FULL Communion with The Holy See…I am not a member of the SSPX or any other type of fraternity, group, independent church, etc…I am simply a Catholic that loves Tradition and I am very, very conservative…I hate to see a lot stuff I see going on in Churches today. With that said, I totally know the whole background with the ordinations/consecrations, etc that led to the problems the SSPX are facing with Rome…I don’t need any background on that. My question is why today, over 20 years after this all went down do people still give them such a hard time? It seems to me that they are just a group of Catholics who don’t want to see our Church destroyed by the Modernists and I am thankful we were blessed to have them fight for the TLM…

Hi, Michael.

When you used the term “Modernists”, my ears almost shut off because you’re leading the question on SSPX’s reasons to exist. The Second Vatican Council was not filled with people who were trying to steer the Church to fit the times, but to be understandable to the times around it. If there was anything wrong with Vatican II (and I heartily agree here), it was it’s terrible execution that resulted in bad catechisms, priests who were doing what they wanted and inconsistencies in the Mass.

Most, if not all of these issues have been corrected since then. Even the Pope now encourages any dioceses that want to have more Extraordinary Forms of the Mass to do so. That means that even the SSPX should be able to come back into the fold, right?

No, and I’m sure you know why. The SSPX must also return to full communion with the Pope himself *and *accept the treatises of the Second Vatican Council. Apparently there are members there who don’t want to accept all the requirements of the Church, so the going is slow.

Remember that the SSPX performed against a direct papal directive, which resulted in their excommunication. But they can come back and will, I’m sure, once they abide by papal authority.

To perhaps answer your question on why the SSPX get such a hard time:

We Catholics have a sore spot when people leave the Church and create their own. It’s a wounding matter that leaves scars, from the Orthodox Church and the Protestants. We are diminished when members of the Body leave us. But we must be forgiving, and it seems the Pope is leading the way on this.

 

[ecce_ego]

Because they (SSPX) have a problem with things like this?

“Catholic” Supply Company’s ‘Intercessions for the Christian People, Cycles A, B, C’

Fifty liturgical scholars—Roman Catholic, Episcopal, and Lutheran—have authored these intercessory prayers for each Sunday of the three-year cycle to expand the resources available to local pastors. The authors have been guided by the traditional pattern of prayers of the faithful.

 

[Joe_5859]

Because they (SSPX) have a problem with things like this?

“Catholic” Supply Company’s ‘Intercessions for the Christian People, Cycles A, B, C’

Fifty liturgical scholars—Roman Catholic, Episcopal, and Lutheran—have authored these intercessory prayers for each Sunday of the three-year cycle to expand the resources available to local pastors. The authors have been guided by the traditional pattern of prayers of the faithful.

But that’s not the problem. I have problems with stuff like this, too. If it was only stuff like this, there would be no problem. This is not why the SSPX gets “picked on”, at least, not by any sensible Catholic.

Maybe it’s why the secular media picks on them.

 

[ecce_ego]

But that’s not the problem. I have problems with stuff like this, too. If it was only stuff like this, there would be no problem. This is not why the SSPX gets “picked on”, at least, not by any sensible Catholic.

Maybe it’s why the secular media picks on them.

Maybe they are not sure as to their status, and think they are excommunicated? Perhaps they are exhibiting the natural human (especially American) tendency to stick with their own, root for their team, etc. SSPX is honestly non-“traditional” in the sense that the Latin Mass is not familiar to me, though I heard it as a child. The VII changes were instituted before I was even born. At first, the SSPX seemed to be just rebelling against Church authority and tradition, in my mind. Of course I had no actual teaching on actual Church Tradition or teachings which defined true Catholic beliefs. Plus, it’s easier to go to the new Mass than to have to learn Latin and a bunch of rites, so why change back?

 

[KingTheoden]

Michael,

I understand your frustration, and I share in it. It is easy to get upset when you see hundreds approach on any given Sunday and only a handful go to Confession. Perhaps more flavorful, it is not difficult to see bishops poorly teaching or spreading outright heresy.

To directly respond to the issue of SSPX, it comes down to the severity of rebellion. Rebelling, contrary to pop-culture, is not cool. The first rebel was Satan. Respect for authority, even when it is cruel, is something we as Catholics are called to endure.

Thankfully, we are past this now. SSPX is not excommunicated. Now it is a matter of ironing out canon law. I think they will be very helpful in understanding that 1970 did not mark the beginning of the Church.

As for the heretics, give it time. The momentum has clearly shifted. It might take high profile excommunications (I’m partial to this approach because the anarchy of the 70s, 80s, and 90s speaks for itself) but there is a good reason to avoid this option. We don’t want to create massive schisms that sweep in people on the sides (of course, the opposing argument to this is how in the world is subjecting people on the sides to heresy helping them to salvation now?)

Be patient. We have a wonderful Pope and changes have been made and will continue. Remember what Jesus told Peter at the end of John’s Gospel.

 

[MIKE46]

Well as I see it, most Catholics don’t denigrate the SSPX in any way shape or form. In fact the average Catholic on the street wouldn’t have the first clue who or what the SSPX is in the first place. Once, on a hunch, I asked my parish priest, a very nice, somewhat liberal minded fellow who believed deeply that there should be no division whatsoever between the laity and the clergy what he thought about them. He couldn’t answer because while he knew they existed , he didn’t know what their situation is or why they were in it. For the overwhelming majority of Catholics it is a distinct non issue.

As for the others who constantly lash out against the SSPX on this forum as well as others the answer is crystal clear. While they clam almost to a man that their displeassure, not hatred:tsktsk:, because as we all know, charity above all else is reflective of the modenist crew, is based soley on the disobedience of the departed Archbishop Lefbrve, their actions speak louder than words ever could.

They hate the SSPX with a burning passion that they also share for the Traditional Mass itself. They see the SSPX as a stumbling block to the Church acheiving the full fruits of Vatican II, IE: a new Church with no or few ties to the past. A glorious new era in Church history in which the ugly traditions of the past are no longer practiced or even remembered.

You see the Traditional Mass would not be here today were it not for the SSPX, a fact that many if not all of the detractors refuse to admit, even to themselves. And as far as they are concerned, that would be the best thing for everybody. No more devisive Mass in a foreign, dead language that no one understands anyway!! That was what was supposed to happen in the new springtime, right?

So you can clearly see why they are hated and reviled so much by some of the more progressive among us. They reflect ties to the past that should have been long dead and buried . just the way they want the Traditional Mass to be. Dead and buried.

Make no mistake about it my friend. Thats the real reason and nothing more.

 

[Patrick_Eastin]

I am going to issue this caution because I have already had to remove one thread about the SSPX. I call upon every one of you to remember that this is Christmastide (and please do not hand me the Advent argument). This is a volatile subject and I would ask each and every one of you to respond in charity. Topic bans are not something I want to start Christmas with. A word to the wise…

 

[bpbasilphx]

Could it be because individual clerical writers of the SSPX have written things picking on those who accept Vatican 2 or personally prefer vernacular liturgies or even the Pauline Missal?

Could it be because of lay adherents of SSPX show a bellicose attitude towards those who disagree with them?

Pope Benedict has said twice this year alone that the clergy of the SSPX exercise no legitimate ministry in the Catholic Church.

However, should the SSPX be reconciled and regularized, I would rejoice exceedingly.

 

[pnewton]

…The SSPX are guilty of one thing, wanting to hold fast to Tradition, The Latin Mass, and Church Teaching…the liberals and modernists are in violation of blatant heresy, etc

I suggest you read Ecclesia Dei. It explains what they are guilty of. What it does not explain and what is at the core of your post is why are other bishops and priests not disciplined in what would seem to be a proportionate amount. There have been dissidents that have been excommunicated for attempting to ordain women priests. Discipline has been dispensed. I think perhaps the root of the question may pertain to canon law and what disciplines are applied to what actions. In the long run, the answer can truly only be answered by one man and he doesn’t comment on such things.

 

[MarineGuy]

Because they (SSPX) have a problem with things like this?

“Catholic” Supply Company’s ‘Intercessions for the Christian People, Cycles A, B, C’

Fifty liturgical scholars—Roman Catholic, Episcopal, and Lutheran—have authored these intercessory prayers for each Sunday of the three-year cycle to expand the resources available to local pastors. The authors have been guided by the traditional pattern of prayers of the faithful.

Touché!! :clapping:

 

[ProVobis]

I suggest you read Ecclesia Dei.

In my opinion, Ecclesia Dei gave the SSPX the publicity needed to fluorish. If Church history serves as a guide, disloyalty or disobedience to the Pope is not entirely a new thing. However, once the news media makes it a big deal, then you’re going to have a following. It’s just the way it is. We can go into the public relations aspect of the situation if you want, but I think you get the idea. Bishop Fellay (and Bishop Williamson now) are almost always in the news. (As are Fr. Pflager et al.)

I only have attended one SSPX chapel and I do so on occasion. The chapel is almost always 80-100% filled, even though there are nearby diocesan parishes with the EF and held at about the same time. The crowds are sparse at these diocesan parishes. Why? Not enough advertising maybe? Too boring if you don’t make the news? Probably.

 

[Joe_5859]

Well as I see it, most Catholics don’t denigrate the SSPX in any way shape or form. In fact the average Catholic on the street wouldn’t have the first clue who or what the SSPX is in the first place. Once, on a hunch, I asked my parish priest, a very nice, somewhat liberal minded fellow who believed deeply that there should be no division whatsoever between the laity and the clergy what he thought about them. He couldn’t answer because while he knew they existed , he didn’t know what their situation is or why they were in it. For the overwhelming majority of Catholics it is a distinct non issue.

I think you are right here. Even of those Catholics I know who are quite knowledgeable of their faith, most of them do not know anything about the SSPX. In certain circles, they are infamous, but, by and large, most people haven’t heard of them (or if they have, it’s only to ask “Isn’t that what Mel Gibson is?” ).

As for the others who constantly lash out against the SSPX on this forum as well as others the answer is crystal clear. While they clam almost to a man that their displeassure, not hatred:tsktsk:, because as we all know, charity above all else is reflective of the modenist crew, is based soley on the disobedience of the departed Archbishop Lefbrve, their actions speak louder than words ever could.

They hate the SSPX with a burning passion that they also share for the Traditional Mass itself. They see the SSPX as a stumbling block to the Church acheiving the full fruits of Vatican II, IE: a new Church with no or few ties to the past. A glorious new era in Church history in which the ugly traditions of the past are no longer practiced or even remembered.

With all due respect, this is a gross generalization and a mischaracterization of most of the posters here. I anxiously awaited the coming of Summorum Pontificum (and am still mildly irritated that the Vatican website doesn’t have an English translation up yet ). I rejoiced when they lifted the excommunications. I have no agenda to “sing a new church into being” and remove every last vestige of anything from 1963 and before. Quite the opposite, actually. But I also have problems with a group that starts out by illicitly ordaining bishops.

I can appreciate many of the SSPX’s views, which is why it sort of baffles me that they would run counter to tradition by being disobedient in regards to those illicit ordinations. In any case, I certainly don’t harbor any hatred towards them. I pray that reunion comes quickly. They could be a very positive force within the Church.

 

[pnewton]

In my opinion, Ecclesia Dei gave the SSPX the publicity needed to fluorish. If Church history serves as a guide, disloyalty or disobedience to the Pope is not entirely a new thing. However, once the news media makes it a big deal, then you’re going to have a following. It’s just the way it is. We can go into the public relations aspect of the situation if you want, but I think you get the idea. Bishop Fellay (and Bishop Williamson now) are almost always in the news. (As are Fr. Pflager et al.)

I do not really want to go into any of that. I was just trying to answer the OP. From the point of view of the Catholic Church, there is another point other than just holding fast to Tradition. That is not all they did. The majority of Catholics that hold fast to Tradition are in full communion with the Catholic Church.

As to why some of the more fringe elements of the dissident left are not disciplined, no one here can answer.

 

[michaeldaniels]

And in reality…that was the question I was hoping that could be answered…no one seems to know, and I know I certainly do not know why they aren’t disciplined…it just seems like a huge double standard when dealing with dissidents on the left as opposed to dealing with the more traditional groups/people such as the SSPX. To me, the lack of discipline and punishment is a de facto endorsement of what they are saying and doing…and that is a problem that starts at the Holy See and goes all the way down to the lay person…For some reason there is a fear of alienating these people…and I truly believe they are a cancer that needs to but cut out before it spreads to the rest of the body. Yes it would cause upheaval and there would be an exodus from the Church…we would shrink in numbers…but if we are to protect the Truth and the authenticity of our teachings and principles…then maybe that is what we need. We survived the Protestant Reformation, and we can survive that scenario as well…Why are they here if they say and do everything contrary to our faith…St. Thomas More would have been quick to call them heretics and so do I…Good riddance

As to why some of the more fringe elements of the dissident left are not disciplined, no one here can answer.

 

[peary1]

For the record…I am a traditional Catholic in FULL Communion with The Holy See…I am not a member of the SSPX or any other type of fraternity, group, independent church, etc…I am simply a Catholic that loves Tradition and I am very, very conservative…I hate to see a lot stuff I see going on in Churches today. With that said, I totally know the whole background with the ordinations/consecrations, etc that led to the problems the SSPX are facing with Rome…I don’t need any background on that. My question is why today, over 20 years after this all went down do people still give them such a hard time? It seems to me that they are just a group of Catholics who don’t want to see our Church destroyed by the Modernists and I am thankful we were blessed to have them fight for the TLM…because it could have very well become a distant memory to all of us if they hadn’t been fighting for its preservation all these years. Granted there are a lot of issues that need to be worked out between the SSPX and Rome, but I think as a whole a lot of Catholics outside of SSPX make it a lot harder for that reconciliation to occur…at least they impede the progress. We should be opening our arms and doing everything we can to welcome them back to our Church…we need them!!! Instead, we have a bunch of people bickering and listing reasons why they can’t be in Communion…to be honest, it makes me sick.

I don’t know if it’s an actual “picking on” the SSPX but it is a concern because this is a rogue ‘organization’ that has knowingly and willingly broke with the Church and disrespected the wishes of the Holy Father. It was a blatant violation of trust. SSPX has shown itself to be dishonest because they keep ‘adding’ things to the discussions with Rome. They have what they want - the Mass can be celebrated just the way they want at anytime and anywhere in the world. Yet, that is not good enough for them. I for one am more concerned with their dishonesty with regard to their relationship with the Church than anything else. The faithful really should have nothing to do with them.

My final question is why do we persecute the SSPX and their Bishops and their Clergy…meanwhile, we (The Church, i.e. The Pope all the way down to all lay people) allow rogue Bishops like Mahony to retain full faculties and run an Arch-Diocese that has proven time and time again to spread heresies…and blatantly ignore The Pope…not just him, but people like Fr. Jenkins at Notre Dame…Catholic politicians who openly defy the Church…Shouldn’t they all be excommunicated and faculties removed…their lies, indifference, incompetence, disobedience, and actions have wounded The Church a heck of a lot worse than the SSPX could ever do…The SSPX are guilty of one thing, wanting to hold fast to Tradition, The Latin Mass, and Church Teaching…the liberals and modernists are in violation of blatant heresy, etc…they are responsible for leading astray countless souls and placing Our Church in the current crisis we are experiencing today…As an educated and reasonable man, this doesn’t make a lick of sense to me. It is totally shameful. Can you explain it please?

A house divided against itself will fall. Isn’t that what Christ said? You want everyone excommunicated, and it doesn’t work that way. Just because Jenkins allowed Obama to speak at Notre Dame (the man is president of the United States, for God’s sake!) why do you want Jenkins excommunicated? Nothing wrong was done. Did you ever think that, instead of stopping Obama from speaking there, that it could have been a moment of evangelization for Catholic Christians to him? And you can’t pull archbishops out of their own diocese when there is really no one to take their places. The Church works slowly, sometimes too slowly for us, but it nevertheless moves. Most bishops are retiring in the next few years and it will be an opportune time for our Holy Father to replace them with more traditional bishops like Bishop Chaput.

 

[pnewton]

And in reality…that was the question I was hoping that could be answered…no one seems to know, and I know I certainly do not know why they aren’t disciplined…

Do not forget that excommunications do occur. You and I may not agree, or we may think the number of such things are out of proportion, but it is not true that the SSPX is singled out. In fact, since talks are underway to being them into a regular communion, I would say that show they are not picked on.

nytimes.com/2008/11/14/us/14priest.html

cathnews.com/article.aspx?aeid=7419

In addition, abortion, or material participation also incurs excommunication. It is not like ordaining bishops without approval is the only thing sanction in the Catholic Church. Let us not be deceived by the press that over reports dissension with Traditional groups and underreports dissension over issues they approve of.