For "someotherguy"

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someotherguy said:
I see. So then, the Bible is lying when it says that we’re not children of God until we become children of God by being born again?
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Which verse says this? I know John 3 says we cannot enter the Kingdom of God without being born again. But I am unaware of anything that says we’re not children of God unless we’re born again. If you can show me which verse says this, I will happily concede your point.
I have great faith in God’s power. I just don’t have any faith in your meager understanding of God’s word.
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My meager understanding is that our souls live on in Heaven after death. Do you believe otherwise? Are you taking the stance of an atheist, who believe that when we die, the worms eat us, and that’s it? Can you please show me how my understanding is meager and in error?
 
someotherguy said:
Really? So then, how did they get to Heaven?
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And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
 
ibkc said:
Which verse says this? I know John 3 says we cannot enter the Kingdom of God without being born again. But I am unaware of anything that says we’re not children of God unless we’re born again. If you can show me which verse says this, I will happily concede your point.
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Romans 8:10-16. Notice that verse 15 tells us that we are children of God only after we were adopted by Him.

Romans 9:8. Notice that paul specifically says “they are not the children of God”

Galatians 3:26. How does this verse say that people become children of God? By faith. The unsaved do not have this faith.

Colosians 3:6. Again, Paul clearly seperates the unsaved, who are not children of God, from those who are saved, who are the children of God.

1 John 3:10. This is the most clear of all of them: the wicked are not children of God, but children of the Devil, while those who are born again are children of God

John 1:12. Who are the sons of God? Those who have received Christ. The unsaved have not received Christ. They reject Him.

Romans 8:24. Who are those who are the sons of God? Those who are led by the Holy Spirit. The unsaved do not have the Holy Spirit

1 John 3:2. Notice that he says “Now that we are sons of God”, thus implying that there was a time (in this case, before they were born again) that they were not children of God.
My meager understanding is that our souls live on in Heaven after death. Do you believe otherwise?
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I’m sorry, “our souls live on in Heaven after…” after what, again?
Can you please show me how my understanding is meager and in error?
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Leviticus 20:27; Deuteronomy 18:10-13 condemn praying to the dead. They do not make any distinction between “saints” or not saints.
 
MementoMori3283 said:
And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
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Notice that the text says that Lazarus died. Thus, he is dead.
 
ibkc said:
Oh, I see. 😦 I must say that I am surprised you are not willing to share the work you and your team did during the Papal visit. You seemed so happy and excited about it when you announced it last month in the Evangelization forum. Did it not go well or something?
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I’m afraid that it seems he can barely be civil and good-naturedly engaging when encountering those who don’t share his fundamentalist approach to Scripture. He was happy enough to let us know he would be there with his group protesting the Holy Father’s visit and taping the protest and the group’s attempt to draw Catholics away from the truth of the Faith. 🤷
 
someotherguy said:
So then, what have Roman Catholics done to unite with us?
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not sure who “us” is or whether we would want to unite with “us” because you could be a cult or a momron, or whatever. You’d have to lay that out in some detail, and perhaps you have, but I missed it, sorry.

in any case I am personally offering you an invitation to join with “us Catholics” you would be welcome as a member, or just as a friendly brother or sister.

May God bless you in your work.
 
J_C said:
not sure who “us” is or whether we would want to unite with “us” because you could be a cult or a momron, or whatever. You’d have to lay that out in some detail, and perhaps you have, but I missed it, sorry.
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“Us” is Christians.
in any case I am personally offering you an invitation to join with “us Catholics” you would be welcome as a member, or just as a friendly brother or sister.
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That’s partly my point. When a Roman Catholic talks about unity, he’s talking about us abandoning our Christianity and becoming Roman Catholic.They never ask what they can do contribute to unity.
 
someotherguy,
Thank you for the cites. I concede that point. But I am left with a small quandry. If God made us and the world, how can any of us be anything other than children of God? 🤷 Some of us may be lost and wandering, like the Prodigal Son, and some of us may be in outright rebellion. That is because God gave us free will. If we are literally not God’s children unless we’re born again, then that means the Devil has a heck of a lot more power than I thought; it would make him a co-equal with God. According to this view, we should perhaps be following a dualist religion like Zoroastrianism. However, if we interpret these ‘children of God’ verses in a figurative sense, then it works a lot better with the standard Christian world view, I think.

So while I concede that you were right about the existence of these verses, I cannot agree with your literalist interpretation of them.
 
ibkc said:
So while I concede that you were right about the existence of these verses, I cannot agree with your literalist interpretation of them.
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OK. Please explain, within the context of the passages, what other “interpretation” there is.
 
someotherguy said:
“Us” is Christians.

. . . When a Roman Catholic talks about unity, he’s talking about us** abandoning our Christianity** and becoming Roman Catholic.They never ask what they can do contribute to unity.
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Becoming Catholic [not using the word Roman because the Catholic Church comprises 22 non-Roman Churches] means abandoning Christianity?
 
mercygate said:
Becoming Catholic [not using the word Roman because the Catholic Church comprises 22 non-Roman Churches] means abandoning Christianity?
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It means abandoning our denominations. It means abandoning our doctrine. It means abandoning our allegience to God’s word.

It means surrendering to Roman Catholicism, while the Roman Catholic makes no compromise to unite with us.
 
someotherguy said:
Typical Roman Catholic response. “I can’t reconcile the Bible with Roman Catholicism, so I’ll just redefine the verses”.
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Heh. It’s more like “I can’t reconcile the fundamentalist interpretation of the Bible with simple logic and reason.” God gave us brains and intellect, and I expect He would not have done so had He not wanted us to use them.

I am a fairly new Catholic, and I honestly don’t know the official Catholic interpretation of this ‘children of God’ thing; I may go ask the experienced people up in the Apologetics section to explain it to me. In fact, I am off to do just that.
 
ibkc said:
Heh. It’s more like “I can’t reconcile the fundamentalist interpretation of the Bible with simple logic and reason.”
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Well, you see, that’s the problem: I didn’t interpret it. I just gave you the references.
I am a fairly new Catholic, and I honestly don’t know the official Catholic interpretation of this ‘children of God’ thing; I may go ask the experienced people up in the Apologetics section to explain it to me. In fact, I am off to do just that.
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Right. You don’t know what it means, you just know that because a Christian gave you an answer from the Bible, that must mean that the BIble isn’t true.
 
someotherguy said:
Well, you see, that’s the problem: I didn’t interpret it. I just gave you the references.

Right. You don’t know what it means, you just know that because a Christian gave you an answer from the Bible, that must mean that the BIble isn’t true.
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catholics and protestants are both christians, are they not?
 
someotherguy said:
It means abandoning our denominations. It means abandoning our doctrine. It means abandoning our allegience to God’s word.
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Which doctrine? The Incarnation? The Trinity? The doctrine of the inspiration and inerrancy of Scripture (which, BTW, is a teaching that originated in the Catholic Church)? The virgn birth? The Second Coming? The atoning death of Christ? Which of those Catholic doctrines would you chose to give up if someone proposed “compromise” to you?
It means surrendering to Roman Catholicism, while the Roman Catholic makes no compromise to unite with us.
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Actually, the failure to compromise truth is one of the most reassuring features of the Church, and one of the principal attractions that drew me to her. Of course, it took me 40 years to get here. But better late than never.
 
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