For "someotherguy"

[tomarin]

Some are, some aren’t.

care to clarify what this means? are catholics christians?

i may believe the catholic church is the one christ founded but even i wouldn’t go so far as to claim that our separated brothers are not christians, provided they are trinitarian.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Someotherguy:

If you really want to talk with people, I would highly recommend cutting out the ‘snappy comebacks’, the not-so-veiled insults, the twisting of posters’ remarks designed to make it appear that they are either stupid or duplicitous, etc. Like most ‘argumentative’ strategies, it usually backfires in the end because it isn’t honest or Christian, but instead is designed to make the arguer ‘look good’, whether what he or she is saying is true or not.

We really do care about our faith and we defend it; not everybody has the clarity of St. Paul or the charity of St. Francis, but we try. Please at least try not to argue over ‘made up’ arguments like calling other posters names, maligning their motives, etc. but over what the Catholic faith REALLY teaches. You may never agree with it, but at least know what you are ‘against’, especially when a lot of what you are arguing that the Church does, says, and teaches. . .isn’t what the Church does, says, and teaches at all.

 

[someotherguy]

care to clarify what this means? are catholics christians?

For goodness sake! How many times do I have to keep on answeringthe same question?

i may believe the catholic church is the one christ founded but even i wouldn’t go so far as to claim that our separated brothers are not christians, provided they are trinitarian.

I’m glad to hear that you’re not in agreement with your pope on this.

 

[someotherguy]

We really do care about our faith and we defend it

Making personal attacks is defending your faith?

Please at least try not to argue over ‘made up’ arguments like calling other posters names, maligning their motives, etc. but over what the Catholic faith REALLY teaches.

I haven’t done that. It’s your fellow Roman Catholics who are doing that to me.

You may never agree with it, but at least know what you are ‘against’, especially when a lot of what you are arguing that the Church does, says, and teaches. . .isn’t what the Church does, says, and teaches at all.

Really? You mean that Roman Catholicsm doesn’t really believe and teach Purgatory? They don’t really teach that Mary’s ghost appears at various places around the world? They don’t actually teach that one is born again by being baptised?

 

[tomarin]

For goodness sake! How many times do I have to keep on answeringthe same question?

I’m glad to hear that you’re not in agreement with your pope on this.

it seemed to me you were saying that catholics are not christians. i only asked you to clarify what you meant. you seem reluctant to do so, so i will drop it.

how does what i wrote disagree with the pope?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Well, someotherguy, I don’t see much of a future for you here until you are willing to listen instead of argue.

God bless you.

 

[someotherguy]

Well, someotherguy, I don’t see much of a future for you here until you are willing to listen instead of argue.

I’m more than willing to listen but listening doesn’t mean agreeing to everything and it doesn’t mean ignoring personal attacks.

 

[dandn5000]

I’m more than willing to listen but listening doesn’t mean agreeing to everything and it doesn’t mean ignoring personal attacks.

Personal attacks? Forgive me if I’m missing something, but I didn’t see any of those floating around this thread. Certainly, Tantum ergo may disagree with you, but he wasn’t insulting you.

Then, by Biblical definition, they are dead.

Care to elaborate on that? Last time I checked, we were promised eternal life with Christ in Heaven. That means that we are alive, and therefore not dead. Our bodies may be rotting in a hole somewhere, dead to us, but our souls are not.

 

[someotherguy]

Care to elaborate on that? Last time I checked, we were promised eternal life with Christ in Heaven. That means that we are alive, and therefore not dead. Our bodies may be rotting in a hole somewhere, dead to us, but our souls are not.

Who are the “dead in Christ”.

 

[dandn5000]

Who are the “dead in Christ”.

I’m afraid I don’t understand what you’re talking about. A casual poke around Google of the term resulted in this, which to my admittedly non-expert knowledge says what I said - that our souls enter Heaven(or hell) and our bodies are dead to us until the second coming of Christ. As I understand it, therefore, the “dead in Christ” are those whose bodies are dead on earth. Makes no mention of their soul, merely their bodies.

 

[someotherguy]

I’m afraid I don’t understand what you’re talking about.

Well, let’s see. My church thinks I know what I’m talking about. The churches that invite me to speak think I know what I’m talking about. My seminary professors think I know what I’m talking about. The men I’m accountable to think I know what I’m talking about.

Thanks, but I’ll take their word over yours.

A casual poke around Google of the term resulted in this, which to my admittedly non-expert knowledge says what I said - that our souls enter Heaven(or hell) and our bodies are dead to us until the second coming of Christ. As I understand it, therefore, the “dead in Christ” are those whose bodies are dead on earth. Makes no mention of their soul, merely their bodies.

No, it isn’t referring to dead bodies. It is referring to persons.

 

[rtconstant]

Someotherguy, just to be clear is it your contintion that there is no one alive in Heaven? If so then is it safe to say you do not believe in an afterlife?

Lazerus, Abraham and the Rich Man all seemed pretty alive to me. Either that or they were pretty chatty to be dead.

You also mentioned something about Catholics needing to give up beliefs in purgatory and such. Purgatory is not something that one as a Christian can easily give up. Not only is this a believe passed down to every ancient Apostalic Church in both the Catholic and Orthodox communions. It is also attested to in Scripture (Zechariah 13:9; 2 Maccabees 12:43-46; Wisdom 3:1-7; Malachi 3:2-3) and its origins can be found in ancient Jewish thought particularly in the teachings of the Great Rabbi Shammai. So why would we give it up just because a few people here in the last couple of centuries stopped believing in it?

As to appearances of the Virgin Mary why would this bother you? Moses appeared on the Mount of Transfiguration not much of a leap to think the same could happen with Mary.

Finally as to Baptism we would have to deny Scripture (1 Peter 3:21-22; Acts 2:38; Mark 16:16) and the traditions passed down by the Apostles in order to give up Baptismal regeneration. Heck Baptismal Regeneration is a belief that is also held by the majority of Protestant denominations especially the most traditional ones. So again why would we wish to sacrifice all of that just agree with a few guys who decided to not believe in it anymore a few hundred years ago?

 

[dandn5000]

Well, let’s see. My church thinks I know what I’m talking about. The churches that invite me to speak think I know what I’m talking about. My seminary professors think I know what I’m talking about. The men I’m accountable to think I know what I’m talking about.

Thanks, but I’ll take their word over yours.

I’m sorry?

I was merely stating that I wasn’t familiar with that term. I haven’t yet read Thessalonians, and so wasn’t sure what “the dead in Christ” were.

I’m sorry if I bruised your ego by saying that I didn’t get it. I’m quite sure that you are highly respected by those that you visit and that they deem you to be highly knowledgeable on the topic.

 

[someotherguy]

Someotherguy, just to be clear is it your contintion that there is no one alive in Heaven? If so then is it safe to say you do not believe in an afterlife?

If they’re alive, then how did they get to Heaven?

Lazerus, Abraham and the Rich Man all seemed pretty alive to me. Either that or they were pretty chatty to be dead.

Well, I’m afraid they’re all dead. Is where the Rich Man went really your idea of Heaven?

You also mentioned something about Catholics needing to give up beliefs in purgatory and such. Purgatory is not something that one as a Christian can easily give up.

A real Christian wouldn’t believe in it in the first place.

Not only is this a believe passed down to every ancient Apostalic Church in both the Catholic and Orthodox communions. It is also attested to in Scripture (Zechariah 13:9; 2 Maccabees 12:43-46; Wisdom 3:1-7; Malachi 3:2-3) and its origins can be found in ancient Jewish thought particularly in the teachings of the Great Rabbi Shammai. So why would we give it up just because a few people here in the last couple of centuries stopped believing in it?

Because it’s Unbiblical, it’s heretical, and denies the sufficience of Christ’s atonement.

As to appearances of the Virgin Mary why would this bother you?

Because millions of people are being deceived by the Devil through these appearances.

Moses appeared on the Mount of Transfiguration not much of a leap to think the same could happen with Mary.

It would be if you knew anything about the account of the events on the Mt of Transfiguration.

Finally as to Baptism we would have to deny Scripture (1 Peter 3:21-22; Acts 2:38; Mark 16:16)

None of which say that we are saved by baptism.

In fact, the passage you cited from 1 Peter even tells us that it’s symbolic.

So again why would we wish to sacrifice all of that just agree with a few guys who decided to not believe in it anymore a few hundred years ago?

Because you claim to believe God’s word.

 

[someotherguy]

dandn5000,

OK. I apologize. After a couple of hours of taking a crapload of…well, ****…and personal attacks from your fellow Roman Catholics, I guess I was too quick to read that wrong.

 

[dandn5000]

None of which say that we are saved by baptism.
In fact, the passage you cited from 1 Peter even tells us that it’s symbolic.

How do you figure?
1 Peter 3:20-23:

who had once been disobedient while God patiently waited in the days of Noah during the building of the ark, in which a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water. This prefigured baptism, which saves you now. It is not a removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right had of God, with angels, authorities and powers subject to him.

That bolded passage right there seems to me to affirm the belief of Catholicism that baptism is what saves us.

someotherguy:

dandn5000,

OK. I apologize. After a couple of hours of taking a crapload of…well, ****…and personal attacks from your fellow Roman Catholics, I guess I was too quick to read that wrong.

Apology accepted.

 

[someotherguy]

How do you figure?

That’s what the phrase “the like figure whereunto” means.

That bolded passage right there seems to me to affirm the belief of Catholicism that baptism is what saves us.

That’s not an accurate translation.

 

[dandn5000]

That’s not an accurate translation.

Then would you please give me the “accurate” translation, along with which translation it happens to be?

 

[someotherguy]

Then would you please give me the “accurate” translation, along with which translation it happens to be?

Well, just look at the text as it appears in the Greek, from which our English versions are translated:

ὅς καί ὑμεῖς ἀντίτυπον νῦν σώζω βάπτισμα οὐ σάρξ ἀπόθεσις ῥύπος ἀλλά συνείδησις ἀγαθός ἐπερώτημα εἰς θεός διά ἀνάστασις Ἰησοῦς Χριστός

Note the use of the word,* ἀντίτυπον*. Pronouced anti-tupon, it literally means “a representative”, not a literal thing.

 

[dandn5000]

Well, just look at the text as it appears in the Greek, from which our English versions are translated:

Note the use of the word,* ἀντίτυπον*. Pronouced anti-tupon, it literally means “a representative”, not a literal thing.

I’m sorry, but I don’t have a biblical scholar onsite at the moment, and I’m (understandably, I hope) a bit wary to just take your word for it.