For the doubters

[Stylus]

When someone says that they don’t believe in God, what is the best single thing to say or make known to them that proves that there is a God?

 

[Rand_Al_Thor]

Peace be with you!

Unfortunately, there is nothing that will prove the existence of God. There are some things that will hopefully get them thinking, at least.

Usually athiests believe in science and what science says. Ask them if they believe that the universe is infinite. If they say yes, then they are admitting that something can have infinite properties, and of course the next question would be why can’t something else be infinite? If they say no, then what is beyond the universe? Either way there’s something else (or at least the possibility of something else) out there.

How is the big bang possible without God? Matter cannot come from nothing. What is nothing? How can “nothing” exist? Where did the particles that caused the big bang come from? They had to come from somewhere. What was the “nothing” that they were spinning around in? There’s so many holes in science here. Einstein himself said that the only way the particles could have come into being, and thus the universe, was if there was a God that created them.

Remember, you don’t have to convert them right away. All you have to do is plant a seed, get them to start thinking about what you say. If you do that, you’ve done well. Good luck!

In Christ,
Rand

 

[puzzleannie]

the evidence of God is all around, in all of the created universe, for those with eyes to see. Those who use science as an excuse to ignore plain evidence will always be blind to the truth.

 

[Rand_Al_Thor]

puzzleannie:

the evidence of God is all around, in all of the created universe, for those with eyes to see. Those who use science as an excuse to ignore plain evidence will always be blind to the truth.

Peace be with you!



Exactly! Can we see the wind? Can we see gravity? Nope, but we sure can see their effects! Just like with God.

In Christ,
Rand

 

[Everstruggling]

Hmm, is there anything I could say that you prove to you there is No god? Probably not. If there was, then you would be on your way to disbelieving anyway. If I was going to believe, then I would probably be leaning that way.

Besides, any disbeliever (am I spelling that right? It looks wrong, oh well, whatever) As I was saying, any disbeliever who is the slightest bit interested in talking to you about it, is probably just as aware of all the arguments as you are.

But if you really want to try, here are two suggestions:

1. Ask God what to do. If God really exists, than he would be the one to ask what would pursuade me. Jesus tailored his message to individual people; it seemed to work well for him.
2. Don’t argue, act. People are always drawn to passion, love, kindness, and fulfillment. If you are those, than the converts will follow.

 

[Della]

After having talked to a few atheists, I have found that the whole science thing is really nothing more than a convenient way of shutting you up. They think that science is unassailable to their position, which is why they use it. In reality, atheists have some problem with authority or with handing control over to another or with someone who represented religion sometime in their life. It is a psychological hang up not really proofs against that keep them from embracing religion. Otherwise, how can they account for their virulent hatred of religion and often of religious people? They are usually quite vociferous when push comes to shove, and are overly obsessed with proving religion wrong. After all, if there is no God why bother those of us who do believe? Wouldn’t it be easier to just smugly us let us live in our ignorance? They can’t because it is intensely personal to them, like homosexuals who accuse everyone else of being homophobic. It’s an illness of the mind brought on by some unhappy experience for which they blame God or religion.

 

[Della]

Everstruggling:

Hmm, is there anything I could say that you prove to you there is No god? Probably not. If there was, then you would be on your way to disbelieving anyway. If I was going to believe, then I would probably be leaning that way.

Besides, any disbeliever (am I spelling that right? It looks wrong, oh well, whatever) As I was saying, any disbeliever who is the slightest bit interested in talking to you about it, is probably just as aware of all the arguments as you are.

But if you really want to try, here are two suggestions:

1. Ask God what to do. If God really exists, than he would be the one to ask what would pursuade me. Jesus tailored his message to individual people; it seemed to work well for him.
2. Don’t argue, act. People are always drawn to passion, love, kindness, and fulfillment. If you are those, than the converts will follow.

I believe you are more of an agnostic rather than an atheist. I would recommend to your reading Orthodoxy or The Everlasting Man by G. K. Chesterton. He was quite witty, brilliant and personable as an author. I am sure you would like his writings.

 

[Everstruggling]

Wow, Della, you just really through me for a loop. Your first message left me boiling with anger, and the second one was very nice. I’m tempted to drop my angrier response, but it will really bug me if I don’t say anything. Here’s why I was angry:

Saying a person who disagrees with you has an “illness of the mind” isn’t going to win over anyone. It is only going to make them angry, which sucks, because anger leads to “illness(es) of the mind”.

Second, non-believers who argue rabidly with believers aren’t any more of a oddity than believers who argue non-believers. And I’ve met many believers who are “overly obsessed” with proving non-believers wrong. You may be right that science is used as a crutch to support an emotional agenda, but I could counter that theology is just the flip-side of that.

Now that I’ve got that off my chest, you’re right, I actually do describe myself as an agnostic, but “open-minded atheist” works just as well. (In case you are wondering, I haven’t missed the irony in calling myself open-minded after ranting for two paragraphs. )

I’ll give G.K. Chesterton a try. Although, I’ve read William James and C.S. Lewis, who were also both brilliant, witty, and person… well, they were both brilliant, and C.S. Lewis is witty and personable.

Thanks for the links.

 

[thistle]

Go to the website of Peter Kreeft and his writing on Can You Prove God Exists?

www.peterkreeft.com/topics/gods-existence.htm

 

[Flopfoot]

There is a bit early on in the Catechism which says that no one way of teaching is going to work for everyone. You need to know who it is you’re talking to before deciding what will convince them of God’s existence.

There is also a bit which says we can come to know God by the light of natural reason alone, but this is obscured for some reason and so faith helps us to believe despite our imperfections. Not sure if that helps. Read early parts of Cathechism. (First bit is in 20-25 and second bit is like 25-50 somewhere).

For a scientist, you can talk about 2nd law of thermodynamics (if you know it) to explain that the universe can’t have been infinite in age, there has to have been a first cause. Why would a universe just spring out of nowhere at a specific point in time?

For a child, their eyes will glaze over if you mention 2nd law of thermodynamics. You have to take a different approach.

I’m not sure of the best approaches with various kinds of people but hopefully others here will be able to help you.

Was there anyone specific who you were trying to convert? Can you tell us a bit about them, so we can help you ‘customise’ your conversion?

 

[Benedictus]

Flopfoot:

For a scientist, you can talk about 2nd law of thermodynamics (if you know it) to explain that the universe can’t have been infinite in age, there has to have been a first cause.

Most likely the scientist, atheist or not, would just giggle.

 

[Della]

Everstruggling:

Wow, Della, you just really through me for a loop. Your first message left me boiling with anger, and the second one was very nice. I’m tempted to drop my angrier response, but it will really bug me if I don’t say anything. Here’s why I was angry:

Saying a person who disagrees with you has an “illness of the mind” isn’t going to win over anyone. It is only going to make them angry, which sucks, because anger leads to “illness(es) of the mind”.

Second, non-believers who argue rabidly with believers aren’t any more of a oddity than believers who argue non-believers. And I’ve met many believers who are “overly obsessed” with proving non-believers wrong. You may be right that science is used as a crutch to support an emotional agenda, but I could counter that theology is just the flip-side of that.

I knew someone would read my analysis and think I was bashing atheists, but that is not at all the case. I was merely explaining my experiences with them. You wouldn’t believe some of the truly nasty things said to me when I was being very nice indeed. The only people who treat discussions in that way are the very insecure. I’ve found that atheists and fundamentalists both become quite vicious when they can’t or don’t want to answer a point that their world view can’t handle. It’s sad, really. I feel great pity for them–for what turned them into people with such hatred in their hearts.

Now that I’ve got that off my chest, you’re right, I actually do describe myself as an agnostic, but “open-minded atheist” works just as well. (In case you are wondering, I haven’t missed the irony in calling myself open-minded after ranting for two paragraphs. )

I’ll give G.K. Chesterton a try. Although, I’ve read William James and C.S. Lewis, who were also both brilliant, witty, and person… well, they were both brilliant, and C.S. Lewis is witty and personable.

Thanks for the links.

Don’t worry about the rant. I’ve ranted too, from time to time. You’ve never discussed anything with me, so you are not used to my style of communicating. I hope to talk to you more, if you’d like, which is why I tried to explained what I was saying in my other post.

Because you are open-minded you are not a true atheist. In my experience both atheists and fundamentalists are the most close-minded people I’ve ever dealt with. You see, I’ve been doing apologetics for many years now. After a while you get to know how people will react from what they tell you they will and will not believe. And that’s the crux of the matter. It isn’t proof that would sway these two groups, because that they are not willing to be shown any proof. They are entrenched in their positions even though there are many credible challenges to them. You, on the other hand, will look at proofs, so you are cannot be either a true atheist or fundamentalist. See where I’m going here?

I hope you enjoy reading Chesterton. He used to debate people like George Bernard Shaw and William Jennings Bryan. Shaw was a great friend although they disagreed quite strongly on nearly everything. Chesterton came to America and debated Bryan who, according to those who were there, couldn’t answer Chesterton but blustered and kept repeating himself. Afterwards, Chesterton, who was used to debating the sharpest of atheists, called debating with Bryan like debating with a maiden aunt. LOL! So, that’s the kind of man Chesterton was. You’ll find him exhilarating, I’m sure.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Rand Al'Thor:

Peace be with you!

Unfortunately, there is nothing that will prove the existence of God. There are some things that will hopefully get them thinking, at least.

Usually athiests believe in science and what science says. Ask them if they believe that the universe is infinite. If they say yes, then they are admitting that something can have infinite properties, and of course the next question would be why can’t something else be infinite? If they say no, then what is beyond the universe? Either way there’s something else (or at least the possibility of something else) out there.

How is the big bang possible without God? Matter cannot come from nothing. What is nothing? How can “nothing” exist? Where did the particles that caused the big bang come from? They had to come from somewhere. What was the “nothing” that they were spinning around in? There’s so many holes in science here. Einstein himself said that the only way the particles could have come into being, and thus the universe, was if there was a God that created them.

Remember, you don’t have to convert them right away. All you have to do is plant a seed, get them to start thinking about what you say. If you do that, you’ve done well. Good luck!

In Christ,
Rand

Thats pretty much what I go by.

The key is to just think about the term “Big Bang”. Now is that really science? Is that really an explanation?
They laugh because we believe in a God who created all, yet then they turn around and believe in a big POOF!??

 

[wcknight]

I woud say that God shows us signs of His existence all the time, but most folks simply chose to ignore them.

If they ask like what, I point them in the direction of the miraculous objects and events such as the cloak of St. Juan Diego, the incorruptible bodies of various saints, and evidence of several Eucharistic miracles.

 

[Magicsilence]

Since nothing we can do could convince an atheist.

Ask them to ask Almighty God.

A little birdy tells me hes quite good at convincing atheists.



In Christ.

Andre.

 

[estesbob]

Stylus:

When someone says that they don’t believe in God, what is the best single thing to say or make known to them that proves that there is a God?

\

The best thing to say is that God believes in them .

Then pray for them