For the Guys (Mostly): "Side Effects of NFP"

[1ke]

The “maintain a healthy level of physical affection, etc.” part - very tough for guys to do in ph2, at all, if it is even close to sexual intimacy, without wanting to go too far. And then when we cannot, it is more like a tease and rejection.

And here is where it helps to have a man/woman translating devise.

DH gives me a short back rub in bed every night just before we go to sleep. It’s not sexual, but it’s intimate— it’s a woman thing, just trust me on this. It keeps me, the woman, emotionally connected all month long so that when the infertile time is there it’s not like he’s just all of a sudden wanting to touch me… there is really a psycholoical impact of that on women.

He doesn’t rub my back specifically for that reason-- he mainly does it because I like it – but it has the impact on me of keeping that connection. It’s all in women’s heads, whereas it’s totally different for men.

So, keeping that running level of intimacy all month long keeps me programmed properly!

 

[searching06]

Please clarify what you mean here? You can have sex whenever you want, just not contracept…if there is serious need to avoid a child, then NFP is allowed.

Jennifer

No sex outside of intercourse between infertile times.

This goes to the heart of the debate in other threads, which I really wanted to avoid here - we cannot have sex whenever we want if we need to follow both NFP and Church teachings; there is no way to separate the two. Church teaching dictates by default that Catholics follow NFP if legitimately needing to avoid pregnancy; Church teachings do dictate no sex other than intercourse outside of infertile times.

This also goes to the heart of what PM stated. I/we did not have these performance/desire issues before we started following NFP and Church teachings. We are cradle Catholics, but were not aware of all the Church taught on sexual activities until the last few years. Kind of like the effects became cumulative over time.

 

[Em_in_FL]

No sex outside of intercourse between infertile times.

This goes to the heart of the debate in other threads, which I really wanted to avoid here - we cannot have sex whenever we want if we need to follow both NFP and Church teachings; there is no way to separate the two. Church teaching dictates by default that Catholics follow NFP if legitimately needing to avoid pregnancy; Church teachings do dictate no sex other than intercourse outside of infertile times.

This also goes to the heart of what PM stated. I/we did not have these performance/desire issues before we started following NFP and Church teachings. We are cradle Catholics, but were not aware of all the Church taught on sexual activities until the last few years. Kind of like the effects became cumulative over time.

Not entirely true.
You CAN have sex during fertile times. If you do, there’s a chance of pregnancy, but that’s a risk some are willing to take.
Contraception is against church teachings… that’s it. But you’re welcome to have marital relations any time you and your wife desire. You may desire to abstain if you’re wanting to avoid conception… but that has to be your desire.

 

[searching06]

Not entirely true.
You CAN have sex during fertile times. If you do, there’s a chance of pregnancy, but that’s a risk some are willing to take.
Contraception is against church teachings… that’s it. But you’re welcome to have marital relations any time you and your wife desire. You may desire to abstain if you’re wanting to avoid conception… but that has to be your desire.

I guess it all goes to how this is approached…

 

[Jennifer_J]

No sex outside of intercourse between infertile times.

This goes to the heart of the debate in other threads, which I really wanted to avoid here - we cannot have sex whenever we want if we need to follow both NFP and Church teachings; there is no way to separate the two. Church teaching dictates by default that Catholics follow NFP if legitimately needing to avoid pregnancy; Church teachings do dictate no sex other than intercourse outside of infertile times.

This also goes to the heart of what PM stated. I/we did not have these performance/desire issues before we started following NFP and Church teachings. We are cradle Catholics, but were not aware of all the Church taught on sexual activities until the last few years. Kind of like the effects became cumulative over time.

I must be missing something in what you’re trying to communicate, and I’m sorry about that–pregnancy brain on my part maybe???

Unless you need to avoid pregnancy, a married couple can have sex/intercourse whenever they want. NFP just lets you know fertile/infertile times. You take advantage of the infertile times if you have a serious need to avoid pregnancy, otherwise you are free to engage in the marital act whenever you want. I feel I’m still missing something in your post???

God bless,
Jennifer

 

[vluvski]

I love your honesty in the last sentence, but I am guessing you are referring to avoiding intercourse, not other sexual activity between infertile times.

I should have specified avoiding pregnancy.

Perhaps manualman (I think that’s who I’m remembering) will post on this thread. He “suffered through” NFP for years before really embracing the spirit of the Church’s teaching, and now appreciates it very much.

Marriage, sexuality, and intimacy are such delicate subjects to teach and understand, and the Church is really only beginning to address this in a way that responds to the “newly” popularized ideas brought on by BCPs, abortion, and the sexual revolution. Especially for someone who uses NFP purely out of obedience to one’s Church or out of respect for a spouse, it has the potential to be very unpleasant. I doubt I would be very happy with the Church imposing these laws if I didn’t think a just explanation was offered. Within the context of the Theology of the Body, it begins to make sense and has brought a sense of peace in understanding why the Church asks this of us.

 

[1ke]

I feel I’m still missing something in your post???

You aren’t the only one… I’m confused by that statement too!

 

[rayne89]

I believe it was on another thread that Searching mentioned they were avoiding pregnancy due to a serious financial concern.

I also read on another thread a poster recommending Marriage Encounter to the OP. I second that suggestion. It seems there is a lot of lack of communication between you and your wife. I think this is more a side effect of lack of communication than NFP. You’re wife doesn’t seem to know how deeply you are struggling with this from what you’ve posted. She also doesn’t know about your anxiety about this. When the Bible says two become one flesh it doesn’t mean just physically. This will not get better by keeping your wife in the dark, even if you feel as if you are protecting her.

You are such a brave soul to share this issue in order to seek help. You need to find the courage to discuss these things with your wife. I really think a Marriage Encounter weekend will give the skill and encouragement to do this. Your wife loves you -if things were reversed would you want her to suffer in silence to protect your feelings?

wwme.org/
marriage-encounter.org/

The two links above are links to the two Marriage Encounter oragnizations World Wide Marriage Encounter & National Marriage Encounter -the precepts for each are the same. Please find a weekend in your area you can attend. You will not regret it I promise.

 

[searching06]

I must be missing something in what you’re trying to communicate, and I’m sorry about that–pregnancy brain on my part maybe???

Unless you need to avoid pregnancy, a married couple can have sex/intercourse whenever they want. NFP just lets you know fertile/infertile times. You take advantage of the infertile times if you have a serious need to avoid pregnancy, otherwise you are free to engage in the marital act whenever you want. I feel I’m still missing something in your post???

God bless,
Jennifer

It may be semantics to some, but - we do need to avoid pregnancy and have for years; we cannot afford more children as much as I love them. In so doing, we must use NFP as Catholics. So in needing to avoid pregnancy and using NFP, no we cannot engage in the marital embrace anytime we want. Is it our choice? Yes. But this is also where Church teachings come into play and mens’ frustrations, and where NFP is blamed. Following NFP and Church teachings, the only allowable sexual act to climax is intercourse, period. So, to be a “good, practicing Catholic” and in necessity avoid pregnancy, there is no sex at all other than intercourse in between infertile times. It cannot be said we are free to have marital relations, definitely not sex, if we need to follow NFP and Church teachings.

The approach presented, which is where some of us struggling men differ with others, is that it is like the Church says, “Here are the rules, the other option is hell, pick one.” We do not have a choice but to follow the Church, whose teachings by default dictate NFP to avoid pregnancy and do not allow any other sexual acts to climax, whether we understand or agree or not. Men blame NFP because it has a name other than “Church teachings”, and is what couples follow and so focus on. And if you are PM or me, for example, where we used to not strictly follow Church teachings as couples, then the struggle and bearing crosses ensues.

While the threads are long, I would encourage you/everyone, if you have not, to go read “NFP and Men’s Complaints”, but especially “Another NFP Question”. You will find in both where I and others have laid out as best I can my/our thoughts, and in the latter, very much my struggles, and I found a kindred soul in the process.

 

[Em_in_FL]

It may be semantics to some, but - we do need to avoid pregnancy and have for years; we cannot afford more children as much as I love them. In so doing, we must use NFP as Catholics. So in needing to avoid pregnancy and using NFP, no we cannot engage in the marital embrace anytime we want. Is it our choice? Yes. But this is also where Church teachings come into play and mens’ frustrations, and where NFP is blamed. Following NFP and Church teachings, the only allowable sexual act to climax is intercourse, period. So, to be a “good, practicing Catholic” and in necessity avoid pregnancy, there is no sex at all other than intercourse in between infertile times. It cannot be said we are free to have marital relations, definitely not sex, if we need to follow NFP and Church teachings.

The approach presented, which is where some of us struggling men differ with others, is that it is like the Church says, “Here are the rules, the other option is hell, pick one.” We do not have a choice but to follow the Church, whose teachings by default dictate NFP to avoid pregnancy and do not allow any other sexual acts to climax, whether we understand or agree or not. Men blame NFP because it has a name other than “Church teachings”, and is what couples follow and so focus on. And if you are PM or me, for example, where we used to not strictly follow Church teachings as couples, then the struggle and bearing crosses ensues.

While the threads are long, I would encourage you/everyone, if you have not, to go read “NFP and Men’s Complaints”, but especially “Another NFP Question”. You will find in both where I and others have laid out as best I can my/our thoughts, and in the latter, very much my struggles, and I found a kindred soul in the process.

But again… you’re looking at NFP the wrong way.

Before the science of NFP was explained, Catholics didn’t have a choice but to totally abstain if they wanted to avoid conception.
NFP opens the doors to couples to have marital relations (thus enhancing their marriages) VS totally abstaining as in the past.
And that door is WIDE… the infertile time of a woman’s cycle is only roughly 1/3 of the time, right? That gives you 2/3 more time to embrace versus totally abstaining!

 

[Jennifer_J]

It may be semantics to some, but - we do need to avoid pregnancy and have for years; we cannot afford more children as much as I love them. In so doing, we must use NFP as Catholics. So in needing to avoid pregnancy and using NFP, no we cannot engage in the marital embrace anytime we want. Is it our choice? Yes. But this is also where Church teachings come into play and mens’ frustrations, and where NFP is blamed. Following NFP and Church teachings, the only allowable sexual act to climax is intercourse, period. So, to be a “good, practicing Catholic” and in necessity avoid pregnancy, there is no sex at all other than intercourse in between infertile times. It cannot be said we are free to have marital relations, definitely not sex, if we need to follow NFP and Church teachings.

The approach presented, which is where some of us struggling men differ with others, is that it is like the Church says, “Here are the rules, the other option is hell, pick one.” We do not have a choice but to follow the Church, whose teachings by default dictate NFP to avoid pregnancy and do not allow any other sexual acts to climax, whether we understand or agree or not. Men blame NFP because it has a name other than “Church teachings”, and is what couples follow and so focus on. And if you are PM or me, for example, where we used to not strictly follow Church teachings as couples, then the struggle and bearing crosses ensues.

While the threads are long, I would encourage you/everyone, if you have not, to go read “NFP and Men’s Complaints”, but especially “Another NFP Question”. You will find in both where I and others have laid out as best I can my/our thoughts, and in the latter, very much my struggles, and I found a kindred soul in the process.

Thank you for clarifying–I’m a bit slow today, I’ll admit.

It could be worse, you could have to TOTALLY abstain. In my mind (woman though I be, lol) periodic abstenance is much preferred over total abstenance. I’m not trying to be flippant, NFP does allow for the marital embrace, even if it’s limited, timewise. I think maybe you’re putting too much pressure on yourself during phase 3. Perhaps you and your wife need to back up to courting and leave sex out for a while, then decide on when to add sex back in–mutually. I think communication is the key here, marriage encounter, reading about marriage, medical check ups, etc to get things back in order.

I will add that my dh and I are converts and used to use BCP’s and bought into society’s view of sex before converting. When we joined the Church, we did struggle to figure out what was allowed and not. I think we each struggled in our own way,my dh felt deprived for awhile and I went through a time where phase 3 made me crazy due to the expectations. Eventually we both figured it out together and I think our sex life is better and healthier than ever before (even our college days). We struggle to find time, sometimes, due to having 5 children They can interrupt at the most awkward times, lol, but you figure out a way. Also realizing that it doesn’t have to be perfect each and every time, helps to alleviate some of the pressure.

God bless you as you struggle through this difficult time. Prayers coming your way.

Jennifer

 

[searching06]

I do love your posts!

You are correct in that aspect. But it is also what I am doing a lousy job of presenting - while NFP gets the blame because it is easy for a man to say it that way, it is really the combination of - or even mostly - Church teachings, then NFP, that are the root of things.

Yes, *if *Catholics were fully compliant with Church teachings before NFP (was there even a Catechism printed then?) they either abstained or had large families, which is probably where “Catholics having 10 kids” was the norm. Maybe it very well is :newidea: that when popular culture crept in - that other sex acts are OK - that that is what was used to avoid pregnancy because couples could still have sex. But as couple become educated to Church teachings (moi’) and NFP, that option is taken away. So, yes, NFP must be viewed properly as you present it, but it in no way lessens the difficulties (and you are not presenting that you do or are) for men struggling with all of this.

One of the bones of contention is that the Church does not even acknowledge that her teachings on sexual behavior/activities create great difficulties for men, and women, too, I guess (hence the very beginning of this thread). And maybe it cannot be addressed because in so doing, it may well open pandora’s box (as I mentioned in another thread) of searching or allowing for exceptions to the “no sex” teachings, which then condones sin. It is not so much the Church is in an indefensible position, it is that there is no other position for her to take.

Darn it, I knew this was going to go “wheels off”…

 

[setter]

So, yes, NFP must be viewed properly as you present it, but it in no way lessens the difficulties (and you are not presenting that you do or are) for men struggling with all of this.

One of the bones of contention is that the Church does not even acknowledge that her teachings on sexual behavior/activities create great difficulties for men, and women, too, I guess (hence the very beginning of this thread). And maybe it cannot be addressed because in so doing, it may well open pandora’s box (as I mentioned in another thread) of searching or allowing for exceptions to the “no sex” teachings, which then condones sin. It is not so much the Church is in an indefensible position, it is that there is no other position for her to take.

The Church has acknowledged “the sometimes serious difficulties inherent in the life of Christian married persons” and the need for faithful couples to “face up to the efforts needed, supported by the faith and hope” in order to “be enabled to achieve the fullness of conjugal life”:

25. And now our words more directly address our own children, particularly those whom God calls to serve Him in marriage. The Church, while teaching imprescriptible demands of the divine law, announces the tidings of salvation, and by means of the sacraments opens up the paths of grace, which makes man a new creature, capable of corresponding with love and true freedom to the design of his Creator and Savior, and of finding the yoke of Christ to be sweet.[31]

We do not at all intend to hide the sometimes serious difficulties inherent in the life of Christian married persons; for them as for everyone else, “the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life.”[33] But the hope of that life must illuminate their way, as with courage they strive to live with wisdom, justice and piety in this present time,[34] knowing that the figure of this world passes away.[35]

Let married couples, then, face up to the efforts needed, supported by the faith and hope which “do not disappoint . . . because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to Us”[36]; let them implore divine assistance by persevering prayer; above all, let them draw from the source of grace and charity in the Eucharist. And if sin should still keep its hold over them, let them not be discouraged, but rather have recourse with humble perseverance to the mercy of God, which is poured forth in the sacrament of Penance. In this way they will be enabled to achieve the fullness of conjugal life described by the Apostle: “husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the Church . . . husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. For no man ever hates his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, as Christ does the Church . . . this is a great mystery, and I mean in reference to Christ and the Church. However, let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.”[37] Humanae Vitae]

 

[vluvski]

searching, you commented that the Church does not address the difficulty of the “no-sex” teaching. Until we begin internalizing these teachings, it really seems like something being imposed upon us. That is why I think it is so important for the Church to properly catechize children AND adults on sexuality so that these teachings actually make sense.

While some might wonder what “celibate old men in Rome” know about marriage and sexuality, they sure ought to know a heck of a lot about the difficulties presented by a celibate life. One thing that really struck me when I studied Theology of the Body was that no one becomes a good priest out of inability to be a good husband. It makes me wonder whether the key to a good sex life in your marriage could involve the ability to endure chaste celibacy with grace and through grace. In other words, if we spend our phase 2 time angry at the fact we can’t enjoy sex at that time, we have demonstrated that we are not whole. If we are not whole, we cannot be a gift to our spouse. That’s what sex is about- being a gift to your spouse.

I think I need to stop before I get going in circles…

 

[uncleauberon]

Darn it, I knew this was going to go “wheels off”…

OK Searching06 - I’ll get your back to wheels on…

I wasn’t going to post - because I pretty much said my peace on the previous thread.

I do understand your question.

Scenario:
Once a couple has determined to use NFP, certain psychologically perspectives can make things difficult.

A - Phase 2 - During the Fertile Times often a women’s libido is stronger. - What husband wouldn’t curse the day they decided on NFP when his wife is really in the mood for an embrace ??!!!

B - In phase 3 especially towards the end the wife may be experiencing discomfort due to PMS - or maybe she’s just not in as much of a mood as she was a few days before.
Oh - but now the Husband - has this expectation for her to perform and act like she did last week – that’s a lot of pressure on her.

This could form a little bit of resentment for both of them.

Further, complicated if they don’t have good schedules - or one of their health issues is unpredictable.

The whole “monthly honeymoon” that is advertised on the NFP poster becomes a “pipe dream” and a bit anti climatic.


It could be understandable that a couple may suffer intimacy issues over these concerns. And similar ones.

I believe these issues can be dealt with over time … As I have said before – My wife and I have decided that NFP is our choice and any complaints are a “Non-Issue”. Once “the mood” passes, life gets back to normal – there is always next Cycle.

– Are the wheels back on ???

UncleA

 

[searching06]

The Church has acknowledged “the sometimes serious difficulties inherent in the life of Christian married persons” and the need for faithful couples to “face up to the efforts needed, supported by the faith and hope” in order to “be enabled to achieve the fullness of conjugal life”:

Thanks.

 

[PennitentMan]

The Church has acknowledged “the sometimes serious difficulties inherent in the life of Christian married persons” and the need for faithful couples to “face up to the efforts needed, supported by the faith and hope” in order to “be enabled to achieve the fullness of conjugal life”:

I have to say that I am a bit more relieved now that I know that the church has at least acknowledged that there are “serious difficulties”.

I guess that is as far as they morally, can go though. I mean what else are they going to say?

So, basically, they say: Yes, there is a problem, we know it’s extremely difficult. We cannot give you permission to sin, so we can only guide through your distress. Trust Jesus, try your best to walk in His way and be the best husband you can be. Be chaste.
If that fails, make haste to go to confession, ASAP.

All’s good…now all I need to do is to make my wife understand how difficult it is for me when she is like that. That would be great!

Pray for our communication and my chastity.

Thanks for that Setter!

PM

 

[setter]

Thanks.

Pray for our communication and my chastity.

Thanks for that Setter!

You’re welcome! …and prayers.

 

[searching06]

I have to say that I am a bit more relieved now that I know that the church has at least acknowledged that there are “serious difficulties”.

I guess that is as far as they morally, can go though. I mean what else are they going to say?

So, basically, they say: Yes, there is a problem, we know it’s extremely difficult. We cannot give you permission to sin, so we can only guide through your distress. Trust Jesus, try your best to walk in His way and be the best husband you can be. Be chaste.
If that fails, make hast to go to confession, ASAP.

All’s good…now all I need to do is to make my wife understand how difficult it is for me when she is like that. That would be great!

Pray for our communication and my chastity.

Thanks for that Setter!

PM

THERE’S A T-SHIRT IN THERE:

BE CHASTE LEST YOU MUST MAKE HASTE!!

 

[searching06]

I have to say that I am a bit more relieved now that I know that the church has at least acknowledged that there are “serious difficulties”.

I guess that is as far as they morally, can go though. I mean what else are they going to say?

So, basically, they say: Yes, there is a problem, we know it’s extremely difficult. We cannot give you permission to sin, so we can only guide through your distress. Trust Jesus, try your best to walk in His way and be the best husband you can be. Be chaste.
If that fails, make hast to go to confession, ASAP.

All’s good…now all I need to do is to make my wife understand how difficult it is for me when she is like that. That would be great!

Pray for our communication and my chastity.

Thanks for that Setter!

PM

Ditto - I will also ask for prayers from all; the more, the better. I’m tired of the bumpy ride.