For the Guys (Mostly): "Side Effects of NFP"

[Em_in_FL]

Gardenswithkids…
What a beautiful and very interesting thought…
Maybe the “ease of use” with NFP is a grace (or a sign from God, as it were) that using it to avoid may be valid…
(of course, not in all cases… every decision to avoid conception should be considered in prayer)

But for those who truly struggle… maybe that’s more of a sign that God doesn’t want those couples to avoid conception.

Interesting points… very beautifully stated.

 

[PennitentMan]

But for those who truly struggle… maybe that’s more of a sign that God doesn’t want those couples to avoid conception.

But most of the people who struggle with NFP are the ones that truly feel that they cannot have more kids, that the impact would be too severre…health, financial, emotional, whatever…and it’s precisely because the need to not conceive is so urgent that the struggle with NFP becomes so great.

You are right. Ease of use with NFP is truly a Grace. I don’t know why God would bless some with it and other not.

 

[manualman]

Manuelman

…

I agree that modern culture is putting the pleasure of sex above procreation. It’s sad. But should procreation be a necessity of marriage (yes) or a necessary possibility in EACH and EVERY single act physically (??). I know you’ll say yes to the second, and I respect that. I just disagree at this point. God bless.

SURPRISE! I don’t agree with the second statement and neither does the church. There are plenty of infertile people, post menopausal couples and of course all women are naturally infertile at times every month. It is not necessary that proceation be a possibility in each act. It IS necessary that the couple refrain from taking action that RENDERS the act infertile. Not to split hairs, but that is THE crucial distinction.

I’m quite familiar (believe me) with the reality that a woman has a lower libido during the infertile times. I disagree that women have ZERO libido during such times and are incapable of sex that isn’t phony and contrived. I also find it odd that you argue that it is unnatural to have sex in the non-fertile time because the woman has a depressed libido and “needs” to force it, but then you argue for the use of the pill which artificially forces the woman’s body to recreate the hormonal conditons of the non-fertile time! You defeat your own argument. Which is it? Does the non-fertile hormone conditon automatically make sex contrived and unnatural or not?

I know what you mean about self-righteousness and I hope I don’t come off that way. But I do think some of the people you perceive as self-righteous actually aren’t. They are just defensive because they live in an overall culture and even a predominating catholic culture that is hostile to their convictions. Its hard not to get defensive about it in conversation with skeptics and easy to fall into self-righteousness about it when banding together with like minded people for support. I appreciate the level headed discussion!

 

[Jennifer_J]

Speaking as a women (since I am one, lol)…the desire for sex is both physical and mental. Certainly ovulation causes a women to be more “in the mood” due to hormones and infertile times less so. However, I am not a slave to my hormones and I can be “persuaded” to be in the mood at any time. It might take a bit more work in the infertile times, but isn’t your wife worth it?? Having been on the pill before being Catholic, it did NOTHING for our sex life, except allow us to have sex whenever we wanted, except I never wanted to…hmmmm… the pill did cause strife in our relationship and made me horribly sick all the time–like 24/7 morning sickness all month every month.

<<posted by PennitentMan: You are right. Ease of use with NFP is truly a Grace. I don’t know why God would bless some with it and other not.>>
Everyone has their crosses to bear, some have health issues, some have fertility issues, some have spiritual issues. We all should “take up our cross” and live for Jesus. It’s not always easy, but that’s what we are called to do.

Jennifer

 

[manualman]

Speaking as a women (since I am one, lol)…the desire for sex is both physical and mental. Certainly ovulation causes a women to be more “in the mood” due to hormones and infertile times less so. However, I am not a slave to my hormones and I can be “persuaded” to be in the mood at any time…

Be fair to us poor schlepp guys. ANY time? Surely not days when in the hour before hubby got home the first grader hit a block in math homework, the 4 month old screamed whenever put down, the 4 year old demanded help in “spelling” and you discovered you were out of taco seasoning AFTER you browned the meat!?! (recent real life example). For us on days like THAT the only physical touch that is gonna happen is me rubbing her FEET! I don’t have a problem admitting that, it’s reality and you learn to go with it, even if it was an ‘anticipated day.’

Don’t answer. If your husband can overcome all that I don’t want to know about it. Not sure my male ego can take it!

 

[Em_in_FL]

Be fair to us poor schlepp guys. ANY time? Surely not days when in the hour before hubby got home the first grader hit a block in math homework, the 4 month old screamed whenever put down, the 4 year old demanded help in “spelling” and you discovered you were out of taco seasoning AFTER you browned the meat!?! (recent real life example). For us on days like THAT the only physical touch that is gonna happen is me rubbing her FEET! I don’t have a problem admitting that, it’s reality and you learn to go with it, even if it was an ‘anticipated day.’

Don’t answer. If your husband can overcome all that I don’t want to know about it. Not sure my male ego can take it!

Okay… I haven’t been in the EXACT same situation (one must ALWAYS have taco seasoning on hand, you know! )

Personally… after a long, hard, stressful day… there’s no better way to unwind!..
Sure it may take longer for me to <ahem> “achieve” (because I’m not going to naturally be in the mood after a hard day)… but if DH’s game then I don’t mind taking longer!

I ALWAYS feel better after intimacy with DH… I can relax and let the stress of the day melt away!.. I can go to bed with a smile on my face!

 

[manualman]

Okay… I haven’t been in the EXACT same situation (one must ALWAYS have taco seasoning on hand, you know! )

Personally… after a long, hard, stressful day… there’s no better way to unwind!..
Sure it may take longer for me to <ahem> “achieve” (because I’m not going to naturally be in the mood after a hard day)… but if DH’s game then I don’t mind taking longer!

I ALWAYS feel better after intimacy with DH… I can relax and let the stress of the day melt away!.. I can go to bed with a smile on my face!

Alright, now you’ve done it. I had previously been satisfied that your last line was GUY logic and not applicable to women. Now I get to tell my wife that its not me, its HER!

 

[Jennifer_J]

Be fair to us poor schlepp guys. ANY time? Surely not days when in the hour before hubby got home the first grader hit a block in math homework, the 4 month old screamed whenever put down, the 4 year old demanded help in “spelling” and you discovered you were out of taco seasoning AFTER you browned the meat!?! (recent real life example). For us on days like THAT the only physical touch that is gonna happen is me rubbing her FEET! I don’t have a problem admitting that, it’s reality and you learn to go with it, even if it was an ‘anticipated day.’

Don’t answer. If your husband can overcome all that I don’t want to know about it. Not sure my male ego can take it!

okay, okay, maybe not “any time” but well, you know what I mean but I will admit that if it’s an “anticipated” time, then dh can be persuasive with 6 children age 10 and younger, I’ve learned we have to take any opportunity presented because they are few and far between

In all seriousness, relationships are hard work and both partners better figure out how to work together in ALL areas for it to be a happy, healthy marriage–even if you have to go out and get taco seasonings at the last minute :juggle: I pretty much feel like this all the time

Jennifer

 

[Consecrated]

I don’t know if this applies very well… it may or may not be helpful BUT here is something that helps me (the wife who sounds a lot like manualman’s wife… I haven’t yet reached the heights of JenniferJ or Em in Fl! ):

St. Teresa says if you see someone in your community (i.e. family) struggling with a vice, do NOT nag them about it, or sometimes even confront them about it. Simply strive at all times and in all ways yourself to practice the opposite virtue. For example, if DH is demanding, then I practice the virtue of generosity. If you wife is being UNgenerous with giving of herself in marital intimacy, be VERY generous in giving of YOURself in as many ways as you can. Not only are you becoming holier yourself, but you are providing a priceless example to the one you love, which in most normal circumstances will inevitably lead to a holier marriage. This will be much more effective than remonstrations. I think that manualman’s “methods” are very much like this.

 

[Good_Daughter]

Other than papal decrees, you can’t prove that it IS spiritual poison? I hope if you are willing to call contraception “spiritual poison,” that you are NOT using NFP to avoid conception on a regular basis. I remind you that the Catechism and the Church is very clear that NFP is NOT to be used for a prolonged period of time as most of these orthodox folks believe. NFP is supposed to be used only “periodically” in SPACING out children for “just reasons.” I would be that you have few just reasons yourself like most of us. What is a “just” reason? Prolonged mental or physical illness, extreme poverty, etc. I can think of several other “just” reasons from my perspective. But the Church does not give us much guidance in this area. So, NFP in itself is NOT to be used as a “natural contraceptive.” That being said, to avoid the “spiritual poisons” of contraception and to make sure we are living in total charity, self-giving, only having a “just reason” to use NFP, that would mean, and let’s be honest, that most of our lives we DON’T really have many “just reasons” so, if one were to marry at 25 years old and remain fertile until, let’s say, 47, and only HALF of your marriage you had “just reasons,” you would have 11 kids if you were very fertile. And that’s only if HALF of your marriage you had these very serious reasons. Well, more likely 75% of your marriage you would not have good enough reasons to use NFP so you would, if fertile, have 17 kids.

So, to be a good Catholic, you better plan on having 10-18 kids or so. Why? Because, as stated, NFP is NOT a natural form of birth control. The Church very plainly tells us that it is to be temporary in cases where, “for just reasons,” we can’t properly afford to or are unable to care for a child. We know that, for most of us, such cases are rare, so, you’ll be having one large litter! But, even most orthodox Catholics who love to brag that they don’t use “spiritual poisons” of birth control do INDEED use NFP as just that, natural birth control, feeling proud and justified that they are holy and artificial birth control users are doomed sinners taking poisons. In reality, NFP is a sin if used in a prolonged manner as natural birth control.

Such matters are not simple and hard for just about everyone. Very few Catholics follow the teachings of the Church on this NFP issue, even NFP users!

I was really just wondering if you believe the practice of contracepting carries no spiritual danger in some cases. If that is your belief, how can you be sure?

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

How can any of us be 100% sure of anything the Church teaches? Faith is the operative word in all religion. We can claim infallibility, use theology to “prove” a perfect tradition of teaching in one particular area, but essentially things come down to faith. To answer your question, I’m NOT 100% sure that artificial birth control is permissible. I’m not? Just as I’m not 100% sure and confident with all metaphysical certitude, as John Maclaughlin might say, that the Pope is 100% right when he wrote Humanae Vitae. I respect your point of view a great deal and admire your resolve and faith in NFP and its theology. I truly do. God bless you in it. Your question about my absolute total certified knowledge that my point is legit…I’m searching in life. I’m very much willing to listen to others and learn, to grow and even change my mind. Lord knows I’ve changed it before! I’m very unhappy with NFP, I think there is a lot of very bizarre and unnatural elements to it, and I can’t agree with it at this point despite having practiced it for five years now. I’m still debating the issue but must say I’m very dubious about it and not convinced it is infallible truth that I must follow. I admire your certitude. God bless.

 

[Gaurdian]

Personally… after a long, hard, stressful day… there’s no better way to unwind!..
Sure it may take longer for me to <ahem> “achieve” (because I’m not going to naturally be in the mood after a hard day)… but if DH’s game then I don’t mind taking longer!

I ALWAYS feel better after intimacy with DH… I can relax and let the stress of the day melt away!.. I can go to bed with a smile on my face!

Em, Now That’s What I’m Talk’n About! I can promise that is the type of, shall we say “extra effort”, that will make both of you prize your marriage and each other. Good job Em.

 

[setter]

How can any of us be 100% sure of anything the Church teaches?

Because a Catholic’s faith and trust is not meant to be in an institution headed by celibate men, but it is meant to be in a divine Person, the Person of Jesus Christ, who is the head and foundation of the Church visible and invisible. Jesus Christ gave the earthly representatives of his mystical Body, the Church, the power and authority to bind as authoritative in heaven as on earth in matters of faith and morals …if you think about it, this reveals the caring and loving and personalistic nature of our triune God.

Faith is the operative word in all religion. We can claim infallibility, use theology to “prove” a perfect tradition of teaching in one particular area, but essentially things come down to faith.

…in the Person of Jesus Christ.

To answer your question, I’m NOT 100% sure that artificial birth control is permissible. I’m not? Just as I’m not 100% sure and confident with all metaphysical certitude, as John Maclaughlin might say, that the Pope is 100% right when he wrote Humanae Vitae.

The prohibition of ABC did not begin with Humanae Vitae – this has always been the constant teaching of the Church since it’s inception …hence, infallible by way of the ordinary magisterium.

I respect your point of view a great deal and admire your resolve and faith in NFP and its theology. I truly do. God bless you in it. Your question about my absolute total certified knowledge that my point is legit…I’m searching in life. I’m very much willing to listen to others and learn, to grow and even change my mind. Lord knows I’ve changed it before!

Ongoing, deeper conversion to embracing and finding joy in the truth of God, as explicated to us through His Church, is a work of grace, and sometimes slow to arrive, as God purifies us along the way.

I’m very unhappy with NFP, I think there is a lot of very bizarre and unnatural elements to it, and I can’t agree with it at this point despite having practiced it for five years now.

This is a tough one, but hang in there with prayer and seeking the understanding and/or change of heart that God desires for you.

I’m still debating the issue but must say I’m very dubious about it and not convinced it is infallible truth that I must follow. I admire your certitude. God bless.

By way of suggestion, prayerfully read John Paul II’s “Theology of the Body” …it will give the Holy Spirit more to work with in His work of conversion with you.

 

[marymol]

Apologies , if needed …mostly for not being in the ’ guy’ category …even if , one can claim the Baptismal grace - ’ it is no
longer I who live …’ ( as much as we all might still be in the struggling phase of same …)

The second commandment - ’ do unto others…’ might bring more clarity to this whole issue esp. if one has developed any bittereness towards the teachings of The Church as being too intrusive in this area …

( True , there might be need for medical intervention , even use of hormone treatment and such , to deal with s problems like cyclical mood disorders ; anger alone can be a cause for depressive symptoms and related loss of interest as well )

Any one of us who have daughters , know what type of man we would want our daughters to have … a man who would be the head , to lead her and the family to heaven …someone , filled with The Spirit , and selfcontrolled …looking out for what is best for her …that the gift of being intimate even 2 or 3 times a month ( if that is what could be best under certain circumstances ) would be acepted with all gratitude …

And , who knows , may be such an effort to be faithful to The Lord , in ’ small things’ will be rewarded with such trust , that like noted by some posters, this whole area (as well as all one’s life ) will be left in His hands , for all the peace it brings !

Blessings !

 

[Feanaro]

Forgive me if I’m coming into this a little late, as I haven’t had time to read this (very large) thread from the beginning. I just saw the title and thought I could relate. Here’s my situation:

My wife has Fibromyalgia/Chronic Fatigue Syndrome. Since the birth of our daughter, who is the most demanding child I’ve ever met…and I have 13 nephews and nieces, we’ve made love a total of 3 times in the last 16 months. Due to my wife’s illness and my daughter’s demanding nature, my wife does not think she can handle getting pregnant again right now and is terrified of the thought.

She is breastfeeding and has not ovulated since giving birth, therefore is afraid it can happen at any time. Her charts are all over the place, so they’re no help. This is starting to be a little much for me. I am trying to be a faithful Catholic and I don’t have a problem with NFP at all as such…just our situation.

For the short term, I see the positives with NFP’s practice of abstaining and then being intimate again as being enriching, because it builds anticipation and teaches you not to take each other for granted. HOWEVER 16 MONTHS IS GETTING A LITTLE RIDICULOUS!!! Sorry…just needed to let that out. I don’t blame my wife, and rationally understand the reasons for our sexual hiatus. However, rationality doesn’t help the hormones much. Also, I just don’t think it’s good for our marriage either. The unitive aspect of sex is a powerful thing, and the lack of sex in marriage for prolonged periods like this is detrimental to the relationship in my opinion.

There are times when I’m not as loving toward my wife as I should be and have little patience for anything really. I think that’s because testosterone just makes a person more aggressive. Not trying to use that as an excuse…just an explanation. Just as hormones in women can make them act a little wonky when they get their period or are pregnant. Anyway, that’s my rant. Thanks for reading.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

NFP does not take into account people’s unique marital situations. It is a one-size-fits-all approach indeed. Having intercourse during the woman’s “dry” and consequently very unmotivated part of the month is also not very natural and not very romantic. Women are more motivated and desirous of sex during ovulation and around that time things are passionate and exciting. During the “dry” phase it’s the opposite. This is the most disinterested period for women sexually. So, even if your wife were not in her current state (and I definitely pray for ya! Best of luck with such a difficult time!), NFP definitely does not boost the sexiness, spontanaity, fun, or friskiness of a marriage’s sex life. It is robotic, planned, pallid, mediocre, contrived, and downright weird in my opinion.

 

[Jennifer_J]

NFP does not take into account people’s unique marital situations. It is a one-size-fits-all approach indeed. Having intercourse during the woman’s “dry” and consequently very unmotivated part of the month is also not very natural and not very romantic. Women are more motivated and desirous of sex during ovulation and around that time things are passionate and exciting. During the “dry” phase it’s the opposite. This is the most disinterested period for women sexually. So, even if your wife were not in her current state (and I definitely pray for ya! Best of luck with such a difficult time!), NFP definitely does not boost the sexiness, spontanaity, fun, or friskiness of a marriage’s sex life. It is robotic, planned, pallid, mediocre, contrived, and downright weird in my opinion.

I hate to tell you, but that’s how the pill makes women feel as well…

I’m also not sure what you mean by “natural”? Sex is what you and your wife make of it…it can be all you BOTH want it to be if you BOTH work at it no matter if she is ovulating or not. Romance is a state of mind–not a state of hormones…

Jennifer

 

[rayne89]

NFP does not take into account people’s unique marital situations. It is a one-size-fits-all approach indeed. Having intercourse during the woman’s “dry” and consequently very unmotivated part of the month is also not very natural and not very romantic. Women are more motivated and desirous of sex during ovulation and around that time things are passionate and exciting. During the “dry” phase it’s the opposite. This is the most disinterested period for women sexually. So, even if your wife were not in her current state (and I definitely pray for ya! Best of luck with such a difficult time!), NFP definitely does not boost the sexiness, spontanaity, fun, or friskiness of a marriage’s sex life. It is robotic, planned, pallid, mediocre, contrived, and downright weird in my opinion.

Ok well the pill makes a woman infertile all the time -so much for natural sex drive and sex with a condom is like sex with a plastic bag-uh yeah that sounds romantic and natural.

 

[rayne89]

It is robotic, planned, pallid, mediocre, contrived, and downright weird in my opinion.

Ok I have used NFP for over ten years and my sex life is none of the above. Personally it has boosted my drive, it makes me feel more appreciated, the wait builds up tension (in a good way). You know you are shooting yourself in the foot. A woman is fertile a very small part of her cycle. So if sex is only natural, exciting, enjoyable etc. during that time, you’d be having less sex than you would with NFP.

 

[duskyjewel]

Church teaching on marital sex tries to protect the faithful from the spiritual poison of contraception.

I’m curious, are you arguing that contraception is not spiritual poison? If that is your argument, how can you be sure?

I am of the opinion that ANYTHING can be used for evil or good. Very few things are intrinsically good or evil on their own. And yes, I am aware that the Church regards ABC as intrinsically evil. I am not sure I can agree. Especially non-hormonal BC that has no possibility of being abortifacient… Frankly, I have trouble understanding why the Church that recognizes the difference between venial and mortal sin can’t make distinctions between differing methods of birth control. To me, preventing conception just is nowhere within the same ballpark as intentional abortion or unintended abortion by hormonal birth control.

Everyone agrees that NFP can be used with a “contraceptive mentality.” If a couple uses it with no intention of ever having children, or limits their family size only because they want a house in an elite community and a Porsche, then they have the wrong intentions even though the method they are using is Church-approved. So why is it that a loving couple who has made the determination that they just cannot have any more children, or no more right now, cannot use another method if they so choose, for the RIGHT reasons. I think it is possible to find a middle ground here.