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TweetyBird
Guest
Curious, if you weren’t practicing NFP, and could have sex ‘whenever’, would sex be limited to just your wife’s fertile times? If so, would you be satisfied with that arrangement (just having sex on those few fertile days)?
You say that women are not interested in sex during the ‘dry’ phase. That implies that the only time a woman is interested in sex is during her fertile time. That may be true of your wife, but it’s not true of all or even, I daresay, most women. Frankly, in my experience there’s no particular time of the month where I’m not interested. Sure there’s more hormonal ‘kick’ to a woman’s sex drive during the fertile phase, but having no interest at all during other phases of the cycle seems a bit strange to me. External factors like frustration, fatigue, the duties of every day life, etc. can make one not all that frisky at a given time, but if there is a total lack of desire any time except during the fertile phase, I would wonder if something else is going on. Just my .02.
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gardenswithkids
Guest
The Church does recognize the difference in methods of birth control. NFP is the middle ground. Here are the two *other *moral options for married couples: not attempting to prevent preganancy or complete abstainance.
Since you bring up the distinction of mortal verses venial sins, objectively speaking, contraception is a mortal sin, while NFP use without just cause is a venial sin. Misuse of sex in marriage is a great sin because sex and marriage are so great. If sex wasn’t great, sexual sins wouldn’t be great sins. I suspect that many people who struggle with the Church teachings really don’t grasp what sex really is. Here’s my feeble attempt to explain, but this really deserves it’s own thread to do the subject any justice:
Sex is great and glorious! Song of Songs uses erotic language as imagery for the love between God and His people. St. Paul uses marriage to describe the relationship between Christ, the Bridegroom and His bride, the Church. Jesus elevated Marriage to a Sacrament–and the “matter” for the sacrament of marriage is the bodies of the spouses.
Spouses re-new their marriage covenant when they make love. There is no room for contraception within the Sacraments of the Church. Contraception is disrespectful of the marriage act and to the Sacrament of Marriage itself. Ponder Jesus the Bridegroom, and think of how He unites Himself to us in the Sacrament of Holy Communion. We do not have to recieve Holy Communion every time we attend Mass, but when we do recieve Communion we must recieve with reverance as He unites Himself with us. Similarly, couples don’t have to engage in relations every time the woman is fertile, but when wives and husbands unite their bodies with each, they truly must become one flesh.
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marymol
Guest
This whole area of sexuality is in somewhat unchartered waters in our times - with the choice to decide when to have children and many , unknowingly ,still dealing with the consequences of much detrimental choices, from these so called ’ liberated ’ times .
It is a good thing that The Church has taken much serious interest in studying these matters, to help all to see the truths more clearly ; one known phenomena is, how any sexual intimacy produces a close bond with the partner and if that person later has walked out, there is going to be some long lasting impact on both !
In phase 3 of the cycle , the women’s hormones and the related pheromones might give some vibs of pregnancy itself !
If a couple is unduly anxious about another pregnancy , this might play into the relationship , with subtle fear-rejection traits !
Well, there is hope …we have The Word that brings repentance and healings …
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may be especially so , the word , as spelled out (or rather sung out !) in S.O.S - Song of Songs …
One would note , how this Book, interestingly also talk about the diffrent fragrances …and of beauty …and majesty…(all given to us by our Lord , when we choose to be in Him , by our efforts to live in His Will , and as clarified for us by The Church !)
Are these verses there in this Book ( from a Merciful Father , who has forseen our needs !) to also counteract any detrimental pheromone induced fears… and the impact of any negative talk by couples - replacing it with words of praise and appreciation …
Husbands could use it - to meet their obligation to cleanse their precious wives , of all wounds , with the bath , of the word of God !
Hope, many couples , from whatever the circumstance may have been, would be blessed - to join the chorus -" it is Your Word that heals"…
Happy Advent Season !
It is a good thing that The Church has taken much serious interest in studying these matters, to help all to see the truths more clearly ; one known phenomena is, how any sexual intimacy produces a close bond with the partner and if that person later has walked out, there is going to be some long lasting impact on both !
In phase 3 of the cycle , the women’s hormones and the related pheromones might give some vibs of pregnancy itself !
If a couple is unduly anxious about another pregnancy , this might play into the relationship , with subtle fear-rejection traits !
Well, there is hope …we have The Word that brings repentance and healings …
.
may be especially so , the word , as spelled out (or rather sung out !) in S.O.S - Song of Songs …
One would note , how this Book, interestingly also talk about the diffrent fragrances …and of beauty …and majesty…(all given to us by our Lord , when we choose to be in Him , by our efforts to live in His Will , and as clarified for us by The Church !)
Are these verses there in this Book ( from a Merciful Father , who has forseen our needs !) to also counteract any detrimental pheromone induced fears… and the impact of any negative talk by couples - replacing it with words of praise and appreciation …
Husbands could use it - to meet their obligation to cleanse their precious wives , of all wounds , with the bath , of the word of God !
Hope, many couples , from whatever the circumstance may have been, would be blessed - to join the chorus -" it is Your Word that heals"…
Happy Advent Season !
G
gurneyhalleck1
Guest
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gurneyhalleck1
Guest
I forgot to mention also that you mentioned a “total lack of desire.” I never said that either and nothing “else is going on?” We have a very very healthy and exciting sex life. NFP has been the boring and stifling component. I am not ‘blaming’ NFP but I will say from observation and personal experience, it isn’t the greatest thing since sliced-bread that everyone has described it to be.
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TweetyBird
Guest
I can agree with you there. OTOH, without reference at all to the Church’s moral teachings, no other option for preventing pregnancy is a cake walk either. For me there is no method of artificial birth control that would allow me to have satisfying sex during the fertile phase of my cycle. The pill artificially alters hormones and supresses ovulation, and thus decreases the accompanying “friskiness” at midcycle; IUDs are abortifacent and can cause excessive cramping and bleeding; barrier methods are about as much fun as making love in full haz-mat gear…maybe I’m exaggerating here, but for me there really is no alternative that I like, even if the Church didn’t teach that artificial contraception is immoral, kwim? I don’t really have any answer to the ‘problem’ of NFP, but it just seems like any method (natural or not) to some degree thwarts the natural design of the body and makes intimacy not the experience we hope it to be. In a perfect (unfallen) world, we wouldn’t have to worry about family size, our kids would naturally be perfectly spaced, we wouldn’t have the financial, emotional and social stresses that we have. So I guess the bottom line is if we seek to avoid pregnancy (for just reasons, because we do indeed live in a fallen, difficult, stressfull world), there is really no ‘perfect’ option.
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manualman
Guest
I agree with you here. Some NFP defenders do the church a disservice by mischaracterizing NFP. They speak of it enhancing communications in couples and inherently strengthening the marriage. They pull out statistics showing that NFP practicing couples almost never divorce and imply that NFP is the reason for that.
I think they have it backwards. NFP doesn’t CREATE those marriage attributes, it REQUIRES them in order to be implemented successfully. At best, NFP might have the benefit of being sort of a canary in the mineshaft, but the canary doesn’t stop the toxic gas problem! It merely warns the miners that they need to take action to avoid the canary’s fate too. I don’t want to come off as smug here, but the way I perceive it, if your marriage can’t tolerate the restrictions of NFP, it might be an indicator that there is an issue you need to work out. Merely obeying the NFP rules won’t fix the problem.
I do wish NFP promoters would be more reflective on that issue and not assume that correlation equals causation.
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Delphinus85
Guest
Thismay be TMI and I may be flamed for this, but I’ll say it anyway.I’m going to dump a little here. I think I know some of the answers will be communication, counseling, and reading, but also need to know if I am alone in this or what. I will say that the kindness of posters here is letting me step out into this with a bit of trust and hesitency. It borders on TMI, but in order to find answers, I’d like to ask, so here goes:
So many people look forward to ph3 because “it is time!” In spite of the emotional need for sexual intimacy discussed in other threads and the limited time my wife and I have, I find that ph 3 actually creates an incredible amount of anxiety instead of anticipation. You would think it would be the opposite. This becomes a vicious circle with side effects.
If feels and seems that since there is little chance of taking advantage of ph3/1, I do not anticipate it. If there is nothing to anticipate, then there is nothing to miss if it does not happen. The lack of anticipation leads to a lack of desire, which in turn has led to let’s say, performance issuesand no real physical satisfaction any more. In my desire to be giving and loving and in my need to feel accepted by my wife, I will do my best to physically satisfy her. But I feel that in her concern to not violate Church teachings in the bedroom or “reach that point together”, there is no reciprocation and feel rejected by this. And in that, there is no emotional satisfaction or intimacy. The anxiety feeds upon itself which affects everything. So:
- have any other guys out there had performance issues creep up due to the infrequency of intercourse (use it or lose it), 2) has anyone actually had their desire go way down, 3) do either husbands (or wives) find that their spouse is so focused on not violating Church teachings in the bedroom that it plain takes the enjoyment and intimacy away? 4) am I crazy?
What you are describing sounds exactly like what my husband I went through. He is so scared of having an accident and violating church law he didn’t touch me for almost a month. To add to matters, we are using the pill for medical reasons (well I am using it, because without it I get so sick I can’t really function) but we tried to observe periods of abstinance for the sake of trying to look like an NFP couple. This was also causing problems especially since my husband had a slight lack of desire and fear anyway. The week of abstinance only got him worried for when we could again, and he was afriad he either couldn’t go (and sin) or he would go too fast (and sin) and it took us a long time to get past it. I had to go to a male friend and ask for help, and the advice I was getting across the board was to take the pressure off sex and just horse around for a while. THings are getting better, but they aren’t perfect. Yes, we are breaking church law i suppose, but it’s better than never having sex and resenting one another for having no drive. He was so worried about doing the “right” thing it was causing really bad sexual problems.
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Delphinus85
Guest
I actually agree with you completely here. Although sometimes other issues can be caused by NFP (see my post below) that have nothing to do really with communication, but some of the fear that comes with being harped on to “do the right thing always”
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Sure
Guest
How are you breaking Church Law??? It doesn’t sound like you are.
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Sure
Guest
This is a great post!
NFP advocates need to drop the whole…NFP is so wonderful, it enhances your marriage, blah blah blah. That is ONLY true if you compare it to contraception, so of course it seems profoundly better. What’s really better is having the freedom to act as the Creator designed us - for the man and the woman to desire each other and be as one - THAT’s what’s natural. NFP…not so much.
We need to remember NFP is an exception to the rule. It’s a remedy provided by a benevolent Father. It’s a “medication” that we take when the circumstances necessitate. It is not some magic supplement that enhances a marriage.
(Warning: the following analogy might not be perfect)… When a person gets an infection and they can’t get rid of it, he takes an anti-biotic and hopefully, in time, he stops taking the anti-biotic. He doesn’t, however, go around telling everyone, “Hey, you should take an anti-biotic, it’s sooooo good for you! Everyone should take one! I take my anti-biotic EVERY day! And I’m going to keep taking them FOREVER!”
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duskyjewel
Guest
Another problem with the dedicated pro-NFPers is that by making this the sina qua non of whether you are REALLY Catholic or not, those of us who fail, either by using barriers or doing something permanent, end up feeling like there is no point in trying to participate in the Church anymore. We feel like hypocrites and the practice of our faith can become hollow. Even after going to confession, the guilt we feel can remain overwhelming. It shouldn’t, of course, because we are forgiven, but guilt is the appropriate emotional response to knowing one has failed. And those of us who struggle and fall do feel it as a failure. We confess and try to move on and do better, but the same issues that made us fall are still there, and we do no better at solving them, so we fall again. And then we get told that we are not REAL Catholics because we fell. It seems this is one sin that is unforgivable by some. And yet, how many other sins do all of us commit all the time? How many other rules do we break? We don’t get told that we aren’t REAL Catholics for committing those sins… this issue has the potential to damage so many faith lives due to the way its advocates handle it. I am not saying the Church is wrong, I am saying that I am a weak person who has excruciating trouble living up to what it asks!
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manualman
Guest
You tread a fine line and seem to do it well. Habitual sin is a hard thing to confess. Anybody who condemns you for failing from time to time needs to be asked if THEY have NO habitual sins they struggle with.
Only when habitual sin turns into rationalizing that the sin really ISN’T a sin is there room for a legitimate rebuke. (And precious few, myself not included, can pull one of those off properly.)
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PaulinVA
Guest
What an interesting post. I am somewhat taken aback by this.
If this is a past sin, then there should be no guilt or feelings of hypocrisy. If it is “ongoing”, in that abstention is something one just can’t do and one must have sex using a barrier method, and one knows it’s sinful, I don’t know what to say.
Are only 2% of American Catholics REALLY Catholic? Yesterday, I would have said yes. Now, I’m not so sure. Just because it’s a “cause celebre” for Catholics, does it make it any more a defining sin? I don’t know. I guess it depends if one is refusing to follow Church teaching or somehow unable. I’ve never thought of the “unable” part, someone struggling with contraception. Very interesting.
I imagine it would be hard to handle if every time one made love to ones spouse, because of contraception, they were committing a sin.
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duskyjewel
Guest
You’re right, and this is what holds many strugglers back from anything permanent. At least with temporary methods, you can change your mind tomorrow, confess, and try again to do better.
But many times, the issues that make people fall in the first place seem overwhelming, and your mind gets caught up in them, and you start rationalizing again… Sometimes some people can be very dismissive of the absolute reality of financial constraint, limited emotional resources and time to give appropriate attention to each child, etc. These have an immediacy to them, and profoundly impact our lives right now, every day. We live these limitations every hour. That’s why the temptation to break Church law can become so strong. And, call it lust if you must, but sometimes, after a long day, working to pay bills, helping with homework, bathing and putting kids to bed, nursing the baby 12 times in 6 hours, trying to do some minimum of house work, and figuring out who has to be where at what time the next day, a couple needs to reconnect with each other in that special way. How disheartening to look at the chart and be told you can’t. I know, I know, we have the wrong idea. We’re supposed to see it as redemptive sacrifice. But many of us just see it as a barrier to nourishing our souls and marriages when we need to. Which again, is when temptation crops up.
I don’t pretend to have any answers to this. I have wracked myself for years over these questions. I have read copiously on both sides of the debate. I totally respect and admire those who can live up to Church teaching all the time. I hold them in awe, because they obviously have strength I don’t have. They also have conviction I don’t have. I just am not sure that non-abotifacient ABC is a mortal sin. I have tried very hard to form and direct my conscience and will in accordance with the Church, but I am still not totally convinced.
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TweetyBird
Guest
It would be hard indeed. Many Catholics very much want to be obedient to the Church, but have a very serious fear of pregnancy and feel that the only way to keep their marriages intact and be able to provide for the children they do have is to use artificial contraception. For many women, especially during certain seasons of life, it can be very hard to determine when, exactly, she is fertile. This is especially hard when one of the spouses is not really ‘on board’ for NFP or extended abstinence. Plus, a lot of people have studied all of the arguments about why the Church teaches as she does, and yet their intellects tell them that there is no rational reason why the use of non-abortifacent contraception should be a mortal sin. Many such Catholics are staunchly pro-life and would never consider abortion as an acceptable alternative. Duskyjewel makes a sound point here - based on some discussions it would seem ABC is the cardinal sin that separates the ‘real’ Catholics from the ‘cafeteria’ Catholics. For a Catholic who is obedient in every other area but just cannot bring him or herself to be obedient to this teaching, there can be a desperate sense of “why bother” if the Church says I am damned anyway.
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rayne89
Guest
Just so you know while I completely believe the church is absolutely right on this it does not mean I have never fallen short. In fact it happens more than I would like. Sometimes our desire gets the better of us and we finish in a way that is not open to life. That does not mean the church is wrong and we are right. We confess, pick ourselves up and start again -just like any other sin.You’re right, and this is what holds many strugglers back from anything permanent. At least with temporary methods, you can change your mind tomorrow, confess, and try again to do better.
But many times, the issues that make people fall in the first place seem overwhelming, and your mind gets caught up in them, and you start rationalizing again… Sometimes some people can be very dismissive of the absolute reality of financial constraint, limited emotional resources and time to give appropriate attention to each child, etc. These have an immediacy to them, and profoundly impact our lives right now, every day. We live these limitations every hour. That’s why the temptation to break Church law can become so strong. And, call it lust if you must, but sometimes, after a long day, working to pay bills, helping with homework, bathing and putting kids to bed, nursing the baby 12 times in 6 hours, trying to do some minimum of house work, and figuring out who has to be where at what time the next day, a couple needs to reconnect with each other in that special way. How disheartening to look at the chart and be told you can’t. I know, I know, we have the wrong idea. We’re supposed to see it as redemptive sacrifice. But many of us just see it as a barrier to nourishing our souls and marriages when we need to. Which again, is when temptation crops up.
I don’t pretend to have any answers to this. I have wracked myself for years over these questions. I have read copiously on both sides of the debate. I totally respect and admire those who can live up to Church teaching all the time. I hold them in awe, because they obviously have strength I don’t have. They also have conviction I don’t have. I just am not sure that non-abotifacient ABC is a mortal sin. I have tried very hard to form and direct my conscience and will in accordance with the Church, but I am still not totally convinced.
I still think NFP is the best thing for our marriage even when we struggle, even when we fall, even when we get frustrated. I am definitely far from perfect but I do the best I can with God’s grace and mercy. Would you give up hope if it was any other sin? I’m sure we all have sins we seem to regularly confess, we try and try but still fall short. As long as we keep trying we are fighting the good fight. The church is a hospital for sinners not a museum of saints.
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PaulinVA
Guest
Thanks you all for the kind responses to my post at 5:09. I’ve learned something about struggles some of you have.
My wife and I have been using NFP for around 18 years, and actually only “stumbled” once, early on. After that, I think it was more resentment at not being able to. I was really resentful, because it was easier for my wife than for me.
It never crossed our minds to use another method, have another method on hand, in case we couldn’t abstain. Now, there have been a few times when we threw caution to the wind, but, I must admit, my attitude later was one of total fear that a child would result. And, we do now have a medical reason for my wife not to get pregnant - is it sinful to be glad we have a serious reason?
My wife and I have been using NFP for around 18 years, and actually only “stumbled” once, early on. After that, I think it was more resentment at not being able to. I was really resentful, because it was easier for my wife than for me.
It never crossed our minds to use another method, have another method on hand, in case we couldn’t abstain. Now, there have been a few times when we threw caution to the wind, but, I must admit, my attitude later was one of total fear that a child would result. And, we do now have a medical reason for my wife not to get pregnant - is it sinful to be glad we have a serious reason?
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Sure
Guest
Perhaps this strong desire for your spouse is the Lord’s way of calling to have another child. If you find that practicing NFP is too difficult, then don’t. Practice nothing and leave it in God’s hands. Whatever He gives to you, He will also give you the grace to handle it.You’re right, and this is what holds many strugglers back from anything permanent. At least with temporary methods, you can change your mind tomorrow, confess, and try again to do better.
But many times, the issues that make people fall in the first place seem overwhelming, and your mind gets caught up in them, and you start rationalizing again… Sometimes some people can be very dismissive of the absolute reality of financial constraint, limited emotional resources and time to give appropriate attention to each child, etc. These have an immediacy to them, and profoundly impact our lives right now, every day. We live these limitations every hour. That’s why the temptation to break Church law can become so strong. And, call it lust if you must, but sometimes, after a long day, working to pay bills, helping with homework, bathing and putting kids to bed, nursing the baby 12 times in 6 hours, trying to do some minimum of house work, and figuring out who has to be where at what time the next day, a couple needs to reconnect with each other in that special way. How disheartening to look at the chart and be told you can’t. I know, I know, we have the wrong idea. We’re supposed to see it as redemptive sacrifice. But many of us just see it as a barrier to nourishing our souls and marriages when we need to. Which again, is when temptation crops up.
I don’t pretend to have any answers to this. I have wracked myself for years over these questions. I have read copiously on both sides of the debate. I totally respect and admire those who can live up to Church teaching all the time. I hold them in awe, because they obviously have strength I don’t have. They also have conviction I don’t have. I just am not sure that non-abotifacient ABC is a mortal sin. I have tried very hard to form and direct my conscience and will in accordance with the Church, but I am still not totally convinced.
But whatever you do, stay away from the evils of contraception. If it’s a “barrier” that tempts you, make sure that you don’t have any so if temptation in the moment occurs you cannot fall.
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