For the Ruthenians -- Cantor or Choir?

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Nyarlathotep

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Our parish used to have a male cantor, and now we have a family of 4 female and 2 male singers.

At first I kind of missed the stentorian baritone of the cantor, but now I really do prefer the chorus. I don’t know if it’s because their harmony is so exquisite (they are, after all, a family), or because there’s a variety of different voices and pitch ranges, or what.

In any event, I am truly moved during DL, especially during the Trisagion; but maybe it’s just because their singing drowns out the rest of us, who are not so much musically inclined!

Comments?
 
If the congregation is not participating by singing along, that would be a shame.

If people were only listening to the cantor, it hardly matters of course, they could listen to one, two, three or five voices just the same. If they were previously singing/chanting and this new arrangement causes them to lose their collective voice, then the change will be a small tragedy.

You did not mention which church tradition you belong to. This has been a classic struggle within the Ruthenian tradition, across jurisdictional lines.

I am a firm believer that small congregations should do everything to strengthen congregational participation in the voice. I believe the traditional chant should be encouraged as the best way to achieve that. It does not matter how many cantors chant together, as long as the congregation is fully engaged.

If they sing less and listen more, you are headed in the wrong direction.
 
As a cantor:
I think the best is for a strong lead voice, with harmony voices supplementing but not forming a choir per se, is to be preffered. Also if the music is sung as complicated choir arrangements, then few will join in. (I see this at OCA parishes with full choirs). When the harmony is the simpler tracking harmony (typical a third below the lead) which works well in the Rusyn music then people will follow. The fancy arrangemnts like Bortniansky, Tchaikovsy, et al are harder for people to follow.

As an observer:
I do sometimes like the choir arrangements just because they are different than harmonised plain chant. There is often an etheral sense to the music, though I am usually less inclined to sing along unless it is an arrangement that I am familiar with.

The goal of the cantor/kliros should be to maximise congregational participation when possible and to be a strong voice on the more unusual or difficult melodies.

Personally I think that choirs should be reserved for special occasions with plain chant led by a cantor used in all other instances.

I have heard choir arrangements led as plain chant by a cantor and sounded wonderful as heard heard here youtube.com/watch?v=2RYOlkGlkHk (a 1920 choir arrangement sung in harmonised prostopinije style)

On the other hand is choirs singing both choir and prostopinije arrangements in the same Divine Liturgy youtube.com/watch?v=U6NRFOzQjV8

A lot depends on the context and whether the goal of congregational participation is important.
 
By tradition, Cantor.

Choirs in a parish setting were not found in Europe. The people in the villages did not have the time to do the rehearsing and everything else associated with a “good choir setting”.

You only found choirs in monasteries and in the larger cities where you had seminaries.

The idea of a parish choir didn’t take root until our people came to this country where they were no longer in small rural villages but in larger towns and communities and you had access to streetcars, trains and automobiles which made traveling much easier.

I attended an OCS Divine Liturgy on Sunday and the congregation blew the roof off the church!
 
Hesychios said:
If the congregation is not participating by singing along, that would be a shame.

If people were only listening to the cantor, it hardly matters of course, they could listen to one, two, three or five voices just the same. If they were previously singing/chanting and this new arrangement causes them to lose their collective voice, then the change will be a small tragedy.
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Oh no, we sing, we’re just not very good at it – more pious than proficient, which, I suppose, is better than the converse.

I guess having a bass/baritone, tenor, 2 altos and 2 sopranos is helping because, before, if you had no idea what, say “Tone 5” was, for example, you had to match your voice to the baritone cantor, which may be difficult if you yourself are not singing in the baritone range. Now, you can match your voice to at least one other person who knows the score, so to speak.
Hesychios said:
You did not mention which church tradition you belong to. This has been a classic struggle within the Ruthenian tradition, across jurisdictional lines.
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Me? I’m a Roman Catholic, but we alternate weekly between a Roman rite church (Novus Ordo? I’m never sure about the terminology) and a Ruthenian Byzantine rite church. So, while I’m not Ruthenian myself, I have had lunch with Andy Warhol’s brother, so does that count for something? In any event, bi-weekly “rite-hopping” probably isn’t kosher (even though we get envelopes for both), but I don’t see the harm in subsisting in both the Eastern and Western traditions. One week I meditate on St. John Climachus, the next, St. John of the Cross – it’s a good thing.
Hesychios said:
I am a firm believer that small congregations should do everything to strengthen congregational participation in the voice. I believe the traditional chant should be encouraged as the best way to achieve that. It does not matter how many cantors chant together, as long as the congregation is fully engaged.

If they sing less and listen more, you are headed in the wrong direction.
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I agree.
 
SVP said:
As a cantor:
I think the best is for a strong lead voice, with harmony voices supplementing but not forming a choir per se, is to be preferred.
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Actually, come to think of it, there is usually just one lead voice most times. So I don’t know if it’s a “choir”, or whatnot, but it sounds more like what you described.
SVP said:
Also if the music is sung as complicated choir arrangements, then few will join in. (I see this at OCA parishes with full choirs). When the harmony is the simpler tracking harmony (typical a third below the lead) which works well in the Rusyn music then people will follow. The fancy arrangemnts like Bortniansky, Tchaikovsy, et al are harder for people to follow.

As an observer:
I do sometimes like the choir arrangements just because they are different than harmonised plain chant. There is often an etheral sense to the music, though I am usually less inclined to sing along unless it is an arrangement that I am familiar with.

The goal of the cantor/kliros should be to maximise congregational participation when possible and to be a strong voice on the more unusual or difficult melodies.

Personally I think that choirs should be reserved for special occasions with plain chant led by a cantor used in all other instances.

I have heard choir arrangements led as plain chant by a cantor and sounded wonderful as heard heard here youtube.com/watch?v=2RYOlkGlkHk (a 1920 choir arrangement sung in harmonised prostopinije style)

On the other hand is choirs singing both choir and prostopinije arrangements in the same Divine Liturgy youtube.com/watch?v=U6NRFOzQjV8

A lot depends on the context and whether the goal of congregational participation is important.
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I looked up “prostopinije” – it’s Carpatho-Rusyn plainchant, right? I think that’s what we’re using.

I have to agree with your comment about observing versus participating. It’s far easier to participate in the Divine Liturgy when the chant is chant-able. A couple months ago, I attended a concert of Rachmaninoff’s Vespers, which blew me away, but I couldn’t imagine trying to actually follow along with the singing – it would be far too frustrating!
 
I prefer choirs. If there were a choir at a Ruthenian parish near me I would join. I also probably would be inclined to therefore go just about every week rather than the Latin Rite. I went to a parish with a choir once while driving through New Mexico and it didn’t prevent me from participating in the congregation. However, I understand how this would be a concern for those who are not musically inclined and therefore intimidated. Even so, wouldn’t a cantor cause the same problems for these people?

My point is that assuming those of you who prefer a cantor are correct, where should those of us who are capable of singing in a choir and desire worshipping God in this way go? I just help out with a Roman Rite mass but as I previously mentioned, if there were a choir at a Ruthenian parish (I have had the opportunity to sing in one as a visitor once where I attended a practice) then I would prefer it over the Roman Rite.
 
Choirs have their place in the Ruthenian Church as do Cantors. The difference is in what arrangements the choir sings. If they prefer Rachmaninoff, than likey few in the congregation will sing along as the arrangements aren’t really the sing along type. Harmonised prostopinije (plain chant) seems to allow for the best participation. many cantors don’t lead the plain chant in a manner that encourages harmonisation or even basic participation. Too often the cantor is faster than the rest of the congregation which leads to less participation (nothing like a lead voice racing along without regard for anyone else) or singing too slow and lugubrious (again, people give up trying to figure out the pacing).
In my experience choirs generally lead to less participation if singing complex arrangements rather than the simple harmonies of plain chant which is more readily adapted to for congregational singing.
 
I’m a strong believer in congregational singing for at least the unchangeable parts of the holy services.

A well-trained congregation can manage all of Vespers; I’ve seen it done in real parishes.

But you STILL need a choir or cantors to take the lead, and especially to sing the propers and the more complex services such as Matins and the special services of Great Lent and Holy Week.

It’s a bit unrealistic to expect the average parishioner to know the ins and outs of these services.

There IS an old canon that limits the singing in Church to ordained cantors, but I don’t think the spirit of this canon is violated by having cantors or a choir lead the people in singing.
 
bpbasilphx said:
It’s a bit unrealistic to expect the average parishioner to know the ins and outs of these services.
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You should the old baba’s in the villages of Slovakia and Western Ukraine. They know the music better than most of the cantors and they don’t sing as a choir… just as the babas of the village… they sound just like the ranks of angels in heaven:byzsoc:
 
The only elements not done congregationally at St. Nicks are:
  • The clergy’s lines (Celebrant, Concelebrant, Deacon)
  • The verses of the Alleluiarion and Prokeimenon (the reader does this)
  • the lection and it’s annunciation (the reader does this)
  • festal propers on first occurrence in a given year
That last is only because most of the parish don’t know it; for ones where the propers are repeated for a week, they are usually joined in. Some more popular feasts, people will be joining in on first run.
 
\You should the old baba’s in the villages of Slovakia and Western Ukraine.\

**God bless the old babas. Were it not for them, we’d not have Eastern Churches (Catholic or Orthodox) in this country.

However, the babas in the Old Country are much more liturgically and musically savvy than the the average parishioner in the USA.

Do these babas sing Matins and Holy Week, too? That was my point.

BTW–isn’t it a shame that the podobny (idiomela) seem to have fallen out of use in English? **
 
For the past several years, the Metropolitan Cantor Institute of the Pittsburgh (Ruthenian) archeparchy has published Vespers propers for Sundays and feasts with the podoben melodies written out, as well as propers with the easier, more familiar samohlasen melodies.

Whenever the podoben version is delayed, I get five or six emails asking where it is, so it is clear that some of our parishes are using the more ornate melodies.

In Christ,
Jeff Mierzejewski
 
ByzKat said:
For the past several years, the Metropolitan Cantor Institute of the Pittsburgh (Ruthenian) archeparchy has published Vespers propers for Sundays and feasts with the podoben melodies written out, as well as propers with the easier, more familiar samohlasen melodies.

Whenever the podoben version is delayed, I get five or six emails asking where it is, so it is clear that some of our parishes are using the more ornate melodies.

In Christ,
Jeff Mierzejewski
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That’s good.

Alas, the podobny are not indicated in the liturgical books from the Uniontown sisters.
 
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