For "Thinking Catholics" Only

[rinnie]

Here’s a quote from Cardinal Newman (a great thinking Catholic, himself) that sums up the kind of thinking Catholic that I aspire to be:

I get choked up every time I read this quote.

Good one Joe! I like it

 

[Schultzz]

does a lack of response imply that the people im aruing with in this thread concede and have no response. atleast say so. thanks

Did you find yourself talking to empty cyberspace? Like Francis of Assissi who started the Third Order during wartime. Everybody joined his peaceful group and no one showed up for he war. Just because a poster decides to be tacit does not indicate that they are in agreement with what you say.
It may mean that you are the only one swinging your sword of righteous indignation and have lost your audience due to (yawn), … what was the topic?

 

[Franciscan]

Did you find yourself talking to empty cyberspace? Like Francis of Assissi who started the Third Order during wartime. Everybody joined his peaceful group and no one showed up for he war. Just because a poster decides to be tacit does not indicate that they are in agreement with what you say.
It may mean that you are the only one swinging your sword of righteous indignation and have lost your audience due to (yawn), … what was the topic?

I had to laugh when I read this it made me smile–Whether that was your intention or not.

Anyway. If you can tolerate my boring, righteous indignation then repond to my war-like “attack”.

1. The Chucrh is not a democracy. It is not just a human institution, it’s the mystical body of Christ. There is a divine element and a flawed human element. (If you disagree with doctrine or dogma–it’s futile).
2. You should’t look down on or call people names who don’t have a problem with the Church (after a thorough, intelligent analysis and openness of heart)
3. Loyalty and humility does not equal stupidity. To think so would make a person seem like an elitist, intellectual snob.

 

[fix]

7. Know how to interpret the words in doctrinal statements. Catholics in the last generation have learned from scripture scholars that it is a mistake to understand the bible in a fundamentalist way. It is important to study the historical and cultural context of the writing, the literary style, and the audience to which it was addressed. The same is true of doctrinal statements. When a Vatican document says that homosexuals are intrinsically “disordered,” we tend to think of this as a psychological description, whereas the authors meant it as a philosophical description. You may still disagree, but it is important to understand what you are disagreeing with.

Which document states homosexual persons are intrinsically disordered? Perhaps the author can provide us a source?

 

[Franciscan]

Which document states homosexual persons are intrinsically disordered? Perhaps the author can provide us a source?

CCC 2357 and…

This judgment of Scripture does not of course permit us to conclude that all those who suffer from this anomaly are personally responsible for it, but it does attest to the fact that homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered and can in no case be approved of.(PERSONA HUMANA DECLARATION ON CERTAIN QUESTIONS CONCERNING SEXUAL ETHICS)

I think I know where you are going with this Fix. It’s not the person it’s the act. But Reese and other “thinking Catholics” are deceptive and blinded by their agenda to ‘change’ the Church that they mislead others and jump to conclusions on purpose.

 

[rinnie]

CCC 2357 and…

This judgment of Scripture does not of course permit us to conclude that all those who suffer from this anomaly are personally responsible for it, but it does attest to the fact that homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered and can in no case be approved of.(PERSONA HUMANA DECLARATION ON CERTAIN QUESTIONS CONCERNING SEXUAL ETHICS)

I think I know where you are going with this Fix. It’s not the person it’s the act. But Reese and other “thinking Catholics” are deceptive and blinded by their agenda to ‘change’ the Church that they mislead others and jump to conclusions on purpose.

But we gotta remember too what the Pope said. Hate the sin Love the sinner.

 

[Schultzz]

Originally posted by Franciscan
2. “You should’t look down on or call people names who don’t have a problem with the Church” (after a thorough, intelligent analysis and openness of heart)

I do not look down on anyone regardless of their belief. And where did I call people names?
You made quite an ambitious attempt to refute my remarks. That’s a lot of energy focused on a thought. It indicates resentment. Does it also show some (repressed) sentiment? You might want to look at why you were so adamant. I think the Church could use some improvement. But I am willing to concede that we both probably agree on many things which are in place in the Catholic Church. Perhaps Benedict VI will unite us all together again. If anyone can it is he. He is very competent and caring. I also appreciate that you have a sense of humor. That can go a long way toward emotional and spiritual heath and release from stress.

 

[Franciscan]

Originally posted by Franciscan
2. “You should’t look down on or call people names who don’t have a problem with the Church” (after a thorough, intelligent analysis and openness of heart)

I do not look down on anyone regardless of their belief. And where did I call people names?
You made quite an ambitious attempt to refute my remarks. That’s a lot of energy focused on a thought. It indicates resentment. Does it also show some (repressed) sentiment? You might want to look at why you were so adamant. I think the Church could use some improvement. But I am willing to concede that we both probably agree on many things which are in place in the Catholic Church. Perhaps Benedict VI will unite us all together again. If anyone can it is he. He is very competent and caring. I also appreciate that you have a sense of humor. That can go a long way toward emotional and spiritual heath and release from stress.

Well I do analyze people’s comments carefully (Im kinda a nerd in that way). Especially if it’s a thread I started. It seems you suffer from the same analness. Since you’re psychoanalysing my comments too!

Anyway. Ya I am resentful of Catholics who consider their dissent (not that you have a position of dissent ) to be a result of the fact that they are better thinkers. That’s why I responded when you wrote, and I quote, “At last a breath of honest fresh air. No doubt a person with blind faith will disagree.” It just came across to me as condescending.

 

[fix]

CCC 2357 and…

This judgment of Scripture does not of course permit us to conclude that all those who suffer from this anomaly are personally responsible for it, but it does attest to the fact that homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered and can in no case be approved of.(PERSONA HUMANA DECLARATION ON CERTAIN QUESTIONS CONCERNING SEXUAL ETHICS)

I think I know where you are going with this Fix. It’s not the person it’s the act. But Reese and other “thinking Catholics” are deceptive and blinded by their agenda to ‘change’ the Church that they mislead others and jump to conclusions on purpose.

Yes, that is my point. It would seem an authentic “thinker” would state what She actually teaches, rather than substitute their teaching and then go about criticizing. A type of straw man I think.

 

[Michael96]

I think #9 is very interesting (different cultures responding differently to “rules”). I think it must be quite a challenge for the Church to ensure all cultures receive the same message (rather than delivering the same message to all cultures).

People in Italy, UK and US can all receive the same message but take quite different interpretations away.

I would say the “Zeitgeist” also makes a difference. Our post-modern culture is much more willing to challenge and question than western cultures were 100+ years ago. Our children will probably be even more challenging and questioning (and I don’t have a problem with that myself; challenge keeps the Church sharp and honest).

I’m always struck though - the Gospel reaches across all cultures and times.

 

[fix]

The problem is people think the magisterium is not speaking as Christ. They see the Church as separate from Christ. If we start from such an erroneous premise we can see why so many come to the conclusion challenging the Church is some type of good.

 

[Michael96]

Fix

I think constructive challenge can be good in several ways:

• It makes the Church consider how best to communicate and educate people. Pope Benedict is a superb example of trying to educate people rather than resorting to authoritarian tactics
• It exposes the Church for failings that do and will happen from time to time; this will ensure the Church is always trying to improve in it’s pastoral care
• It makes Catholics themselves think about their faith which can take them deeper in their faith

 

[fix]

It makes the Church consider how best to communicate and educate people. Pope Benedict is a superb example of trying to educate people rather than resorting to authoritarian tactics

Not sure how you define authoritarian? Often, to me , it seems any presentation of the truth is deemed authoritarian because it asks us to change how we act.

I mean we are not talking about addressing non Catholics in this case. We are talking about addessing people who call themself Catholic.

It exposes the Church for failings that do and will happen from time to time; this will ensure the Church is always trying to improve in it’s pastoral care

I would say people in the Church fail, yes. The teachings do not fail.

It makes Catholics themselves think about their faith which can take them deeper in their faith

Questioning to grow deeper is great. The issue here seems to be questioning to reject or foster obstinate doubt.

 

[Michael96]

Tx Fix

I don’t think we differ particularly. In this case I was using the term “authoritarian” really just to mean to tell someone what they must do rather than explaining why.

The Catholic church is no longer “the only church* in town” and so needs to win hearts and minds. But I think it’s doing a great job of adapting to that reality. And that I believe makes the Church stronger - people are in it because they believe in it and not because there’s no other option (people can choose from a variety of churches* or can choose to be open about being atheists if they wish)…

*replace with ecclesial community, denomination, pastorate or whatever your preferred term is]