For those Protestants who believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture

[GEddie]

All this talk of a future tribulation is nonsense. The whole church age has been filled with tribulation and persecution. I think there is clear indication that the Tribulation of Matthew 24 occurred in 70 AD. The only remaining event is the appearance of the Man of Sin and the Second Coming. And there is NO indication as to how long the Man of Sin will be around. Anything beyond the belief in the Return of our Lord I see as pure speculation and of NO value at all.But people want to think they are “in the know” instead of trusting the Lord and leaving up to Him

While it is likely that the Josephus war of 70 was a dress rehearsal for the end, apparently Scripture anticipates a far worse, generalized tribulation preceding the end. There are several things predicted that were not part if the war of 70 (sun darkened, etc.)

Also, by the onset of the war of 70 there were Church communities outside of Israel who were not affected by it, but the final tribulation will involve everybody.

I agree that speculations concerning the identity or duration of personae and events in the playbook are almost certainly pointless.

ICXC NIKA

 

[cajunhillbilly]

While it is likely that the Josephus war of 70 was a dress rehearsal for the end, apparently Scripture anticipates a far worse, generalized tribulation preceding the end. There are several things predicted that were not part if the war of 70 (sun darkened, etc.)

Also, by the onset of the war of 70 there were Church communities outside of Israel who were not affected by it, but the final tribulation will involve everybody.

I agree that speculations concerning the identity or duration of personae and events in the playbook are almost certainly pointless.

ICXC NIKA

I did say that I believe that we still await the revelation of the Man of Sin, and he will definitely persecute believers. But beyond that I refuse to speculate. I think we can definitely agree that the Fall of Jerusalem was a great catastrophe. I see the speech of our Lord as adressing 2 different events- the destruction of the then standing Temple and the Second Coming. I believe that we see our Lord transitions from one to the next in the verse where He has finished speaking of the the destruction of the Temple and then says “Of that day and hour knows no man…”.

 

[Luvtosew]

If I say it’s at mid trib then I would be telling you the day of his coming. The beginning of the 7 year tribulation starts when the antichrist signs the peace treaty with Israel. Tribulation last seven years. Those years are 360 day years. Therefore at that point I would know exactly when the rapture will happen because it would be 360 x 3.5. If I say it’s at the 2nd coming then it would be 360 days x 7. I would kn ow the day. Jesus made it very clear thaqt no one but God the Father would know when that would be. The gathering happens at the time God the Father approves the prepared place for the church which is the bride. At the second coming Christ arrives at Mt. Zion not in the sky.

Thank you, I somehow believe in the Rapture, like Jesus takes his believers in him , his Church of believers up from the Earth, and then the rest are left to either take the sign of the antichrist or they refuse and are beheaded and then they go to Christ as they become Christians. Its like a second chance for all non believers to believe. Why would the good Lord leave his believers and faithful here on earth to go throught the time of the Antichrist.
Do I loose sleep over it, no I many die today so I don’t worry about it. We all need to be ready for our passing.

 

[Stilldreamn]

I was unaware of the pre-trib Rapture theories until I moved to the South. The Left Behind series was interesting fiction, but the theology in CS Lewis was much better IMO. I’m still surprised that people seriously believe Christians will be saved from the unpleasantness of the endtimes but I hear this mentioned often from my co-workers. Many believe it is imminent.

 

[robwar]

about what they technically say won’t happen: The Church - the Body of Believers in Christ - going through the tribulation. They have to invent the idea that somehow an entirely new group of believers will arise - because it is abundantly clear from the Scriptures that the Church will go through the Tribulation.

Additionally, one might ask why this group of believers who supposedly will be “raptured” prior to the Tribultion is so privileged? From the founding of the Church until today, believers have been subject to persecution and tribulation - why should the generation living at the beginning of the Tribulation be so different?

As I said in my post, this is a complex issue - and I certainly do not have all the answers - but it seems clear to me that Christ will return only once, at the end of the Tribulation.

I am sure that at least some of these problems happen in the Catholic church too - the church cannot control what every Catholic writes in regards to religious matters. I, therefore, always try to evaluate only the official teaching of any organization - not the writings of one or two people.
You have good posts! a couple of points. The Catholic Church has something called the Imprimatur which is Latin for let it be printed. This is a granting by a Catholic bishop that a printed work by a Catholic author has nothing in it that is contrary to Catholic teaching and faith. It is something not given lightly but only after thorough review. If a Catholic author wants to publish something they should have this Imprimatur in the front. This is a protection against anyone claiming to be Catholic and publishing whatever they want in the name of the Church. I would also like to recommend two great Catholic books on this subject, “The Rapture Trap” by Paul Thigpen and “Will Catholics be Left Behind” by Carl Olson. Both those books are great resources in this area, refuting the pre-trib rapture but also explaining the Catholic Churches teaching on the second coming of Christ. I hope that they can be a good resource for you Pastor W in your own work in this issue with your church. Again it is always good to see Protestant Pastors on Catholic Answers!
God Bless

 

[peace2u2]

I accept the Bible as the ultimate authority which all things must be judged

• …

Can you direct me to the actual word “rapture” or the word “antichrist” in the Book of Revelations? The exact chapter? Verse? I cannot find those two words that you are using.

But, there are quite a few words that I do notice:

Men in white robes

Saints singing songs

Incense

Alters

Chalices

A High Priest

An Alter

Priests

Vestments

Consecrated Celibacy which is men who are virgins and do not marry

A tabernacle

Candles

Lampstands

The sign of the cross

The Gloria

The Alleluia

The Lift Up Your Hearts

The Holy, Holy, Holy

The Amen

The Lamb of God

The Intercession of the Angels and Saints

Silent Contemplation

Gods faithful singing praises

Kneeling before Christ

The Marriage Supper of the Lamb

All those words that I listed are found in the Book of Revelations. Sounds like the Catholic Liturgy to me. The Catholic Church’s Worship. The Books of Scripture were written to be read at Mass. The Book of Revelations should not be read to instill fear into people. Fear is the work of the devil.

Why should we be fearful of His Second Coming? Does He not say:

Matt 24:44
So too, you also must be prepared, for at an hour you do not expect, the Son of Man will come.

Matt 25:13
Therefore, stay awake, for you know neither the day nor the hour.

Acts 1:7
It is not for you to know the times or seasons that the Father has established by his own authority

James 5:7
Be patient, therefore, brothers, until the coming of the Lord

2 Peter 3: 14-18
Therefore, beloved, since you await these things, be eager to be found without spot or blemish before him, at peace.

And consider the patience of our Lord as salvation, as our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, also wrote to you,

speaking of these things as he does in all his letters. In them there are some things hard to understand that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures.

Therefore, beloved, since you are forewarned, be on your guard not to be led into the error of the unprincipled and to fall from your own stability.

But grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory now and to the day of eternity. (Amen.)

Instead of instilling fear at His Second Coming, perhaps we should heed Peters words to repent, live lives that are holy, be zealous and pray, live at peace with our neighbor and allow the Father’s joy to be part of our life now. We don’t have to wait for His joy, He gives it so freely now. A taste of things to come.

Peace 2U2

 

[brb3]

Can you direct me to the actual word “rapture” or the word “antichrist” in the Book of Revelations? The exact chapter? Verse? I cannot find those two words that you are using.

But, there are quite a few words that I do notice:

Men in white robes

Saints singing songs

Word Rapture not used by John, but implied. Chp. 7 of Rev. … Rev. 7:1-17

The 4 angels @ 4 corners of the earth, holding back the 4 winds … meshes with Paul’s description of the ‘catching up’ of the Saints after the trib … and Paul does use the word Rapture !!

See Rev.7:14 … where we are told these are the Saints who have “come out” of the great trib … and are now up in heaven before God. Clearly, they were ‘caught up’ to heaven … raptured !!!

 

[Telstar]

Word Rapture not used by John, but implied. Chp. 7 of Rev. … Rev. 7:1-17

The 4 angels @ 4 corners of the earth, holding back the 4 winds … meshes with Paul’s description of the ‘catching up’ of the Saints after the trib … and Paul does use the word Rapture !!

See Rev.7:14 … where we are told these are the Saints who have “come out” of the great trib … and are now up in heaven before God. Clearly, they were ‘caught up’ to heaven … raptured !!!

I searched for the word “rapture” in the whole DR Bible and got this responseouay-Rheims Catholic Bible @ DRBO.ORG
Whole Bible
Could not find ‘rapture’ in verses.
There’s no trace of that word, anywhere at all, in the Bible. It’s a term used by those that teach that there will be an event, before the time of Antichrist, where the “faithful” will be removed from the earth to save them from suffering. It’s never really been used by the Catholic Church, to describe the Second Coming.

The key word in your statement about those who will be “caught up to Heaven”, is “after”, not before the tribulation. It doesn’t say anything about anyone being bodily removed from the earth, to escape those sufferings. The good will have to suffer right along with the bad, as always. God will use their sufferings, that they will offer up to Him, to also help save other souls. All earthly suffering serves a purpose, especially when it’s humbly accepted by us and its merits are offered up to God, through the Heart of Jesus.

As far as this goes: “Apocalypse 7: [14] And I said to him: My Lord, thou knowest. And he said to me: These are they who are come out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and have made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”

That line refers to all Baptized Christians that have ever lived, and made it to Heaven. The ones that persevered in following Jesus, through their own, personal, ‘great tribulations’ of life. They’re the ones that have been saved by His blood, and received their Heavenly reward. Some of them might be great Saints of the Church, some of them might be martyrs, some others are probably just ordinary people that lived their lives in the love and service of God. It’s not necessarily a reference to only those who will make it through the last days, which is “the great tribulation”, at the end of the world.

If you’re Catholic, you might want to try to use an approved Catholic Bible for studying scripture. IMHO, the DR is the best translation for doing that studying, by far.

 

[JustaServant]

I guess when you believe you belong to some special group, you come to believe you will be spared ANY kind of tribulation.
I remember a sermon by D James Kennedy, a Presbyterian and no friend to Catholics. He spoke of this idea that ‘true’ christians will be spared tribulation. He used as an example a Chrisitan martyr. For several minutes he vividly described the tortures the pagan Romans put him through before they finally put him out of his misery.
He said “tell THAT man he was no going through tribulation…”

 

[Miriam1947]

The Apocalypse Of Saint John (Revelation) DR

Revelation
New International Version (NIV)

It’s not the book of Revelations, it’s the book of Revelation. Singular.

Just being nit-picky.

 

[cajunhillbilly]

The Apocalypse Of Saint John (Revelation) DR

Revelation
New International Version (NIV)

It’s not the book of Revelations, it’s the book of Revelation. Singular.

Just being nit-picky.

This is a common mistake. I have made it myself several times.