For Those Who Are Skeptical About God's Existence

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“Everything, therefore, is moved by something else. If, then, that by which it is moved, is also moved, this must be moved by something still different, and this, again, by something else. But this process cannot go on to infinity because there would not be any first mover, nor, because of this fact, anything else in motion, as the succeeding things would not move except because of what is moved by the first mover, just as a stick is not moved except through what is moved from the hand.”

So we are indeed going back in time, the furthest back we can go is to the origin of the big bang, what happened before that point is an unknown, and as i have been explaining to you, you cannot apply the laws of this universe to be fore that point.

You then said…
“Therefore it is necessary to go back to some first mover, which is itself moved by nothing—and this all men know as God.”

Which basically boils down to this… ‘i think something must have caused the universe, and not matter what that is i am going to call that thing god.’

So at this point i would ask that you define ‘god’ for if you are just going to say something caused the universe and no matter what it is i am calling it god, then i guess i must believe in the same god as you, for i too believe it is fair to assume the something caused our universe. However you have catholic as your religion, but god as you define it does not match in any way, shape, or form the god of the bible.
You stubbornly insist on your misinterpretation when you have to admit you are no authority in this matter. You have no scholarly credentials that enable you to pontificate on this subject of which you are only vaguely familiar, if even that.

The term “first” can be used in several ways; chronological, logical, or ontological. The argument pertains to an ontological chain, a series of ontological dependencies; there is a hierarchy of dependency of one being upon another for motion, which can be viewed as concurrent or simultaneous. The argument in no sense entails or is limited to a chronological-sequential view of causality. The impossibility of an infinite series is primarily the impossibility of an infinitely extending hierarchy of dependencies existing at any point in time, and not necessarily back in time.

You have illicitly inserted “caused the universe” into your response. The argument only pertains to the cause of “motion”.

I did not say that this is an argument that proves the existence of God as conceived by Catholicism or the Biblical God. It’s an argument the demonstrates the necessity of an Unmoved Mover. You don’t have to call the Unmoved Mover “God” if you don’t want to. You can re-name it “AlbertBall’s Worst Nightmare” if you so choose. :rolleyes:
 
He states that he is not involving time but then he uses the term “first” in his argument.

Clearly, this is simply a dressed-up god-of-the-gaps position.
Your “dressed-up god-of-gaps” mantra is still irrelevant to the argument. Besides, Albertball says the Unmoved Mover isn’t God.
Does this mean you two are in disagreement as to what the argument entails? :hmmm:
 
Your “dressed-up god-of-gaps” mantra is still irrelevant to the argument. Besides, Albertball says the Unmoved Mover isn’t God.
Does this mean you two are in disagreement as to what the argument entails? :hmmm:
There is no “Unmoved Mover,” so I disagree even with the premise of the question.

If the mantra fits, wear it. You simply keep repeating the claim rather than demonstrating it. What came “before” however you want to spin it is unknowable. Religious persons place “God” there, you place an “Unmoved Mover” (a different form of personification). I place a question mark, to indicate no claim.
 
There is no “Unmoved Mover,” so I disagree even with the premise of the question.

If the mantra fits, wear it. You simply keep repeating the claim rather than demonstrating it. What came “before” however you want to spin it is unknowable. Religious persons place “God” there, you place an “Unmoved Mover” (a different form of personification). I place a question mark, to indicate no claim.
"Unmoved “mover” is not a “premise”, or a term in a premise; and there is no “question”. It appears that when it comes to logic you are totally out of your element.

“Unmoved Mover” is about as de-personalized as it gets. Apparently the English language is not one of your strong areas.

I didn’t place “Unmoved Mover” in the argument, Aristotle did. It looks like philosophy and Greek history are not your thing either.
 
If the mantra fits, wear it. You simply keep repeating the claim rather than demonstrating it. What came “before” however you want to spin it is unknowable. Religious persons place “God” there, you place an “Unmoved Mover” (a different form of personification). I place a question mark, to indicate no claim.
Exactly.

“The impossibility of an infinite series is primarily the impossibility of an infinitely extending hierarchy of dependencies existing at any point in time, and not necessarily back in time.”

Actually we can cross an infinite series in a finite time.
 
"Unmoved “mover” is not a “premise”, or a term in a premise; and there is no “question”. It appears that when it comes to logic you are totally out of your element.

“Unmoved Mover” is about as de-personalized as it gets. Apparently the English language is not one of your strong areas.

I didn’t place “Unmoved Mover” in the argument, Aristotle did. It looks like philosophy and Greek history are not your thing either.
Also i would like to know why your “Unmoved Mover” is exempt from your argument. What caused the unmoved mover? The second you exempt the “Unmoved Mover” the whole argument defeats itself.
 
Also i would like to know why your “Unmoved Mover” is exempt from your argument. What caused the unmoved mover? The second you exempt the “Unmoved Mover” the whole argument defeats itself.
This is also where you have been unable to follow the argument. If one says the unmoved mover itself is caused then it cannot be an unmoved mover. So, the argument’s conclusion stands while the objection is self-refuting.
 
Exactly.

“The impossibility of an infinite series is primarily the impossibility of an infinitely extending hierarchy of dependencies existing at any point in time, and not necessarily back in time.”

Actually we can cross an infinite series in a finite time.
Finite or even infinite time is not so relevant when prior is an ontological category and not a time-dependent or sequential reference.
 
The argument from motion, again, followed by some general remarks:

The first and plainest is the method that proceeds from the point of view of motion. It is certain and in accord with experience, that things on earth undergo change. Now, everything that is moved is moved by something; nothing, indeed, is changed, except it is changed to something which it is in potentiality.

Moreover, anything moves in accordance with something actually existing; change itself, is nothing else than to bring forth something from potentiality into actuality. Now, nothing can be brought from potentiality to actual existence except through something actually existing: thus heat in action, as fire, makes fire-wood, which is hot in potentiality, to be hot actually, and through this process, changes itself. The same thing cannot at the same time be actually and potentially the same thing, but only in regard to different things. What is actually hot cannot be at the same time potentially hot, but it is possible for it at the same time to be potentially cold. It is impossible, then, that anything should be both mover and the thing moved, in regard to the same thing and in the same way, or that it should move itself.

Everything, therefore, is moved by something else. If, then, that by which it is moved, is also moved, this must be moved by something still different, and this, again, by something else. But this process cannot go on to infinity because there would not be any first mover, nor, because of this fact, anything else in motion, as the succeeding things would not move except because of what is moved by the first mover, just as a stick is not moved except through what is moved from the hand.

Therefore it is necessary to go back to some first mover, which is itself moved by nothing—and this all men know as God.
+++

“Motion” or change in the argument means the reduction of a thing from the state of potentiality to one of act. Accordingly, everything which is moved must be moved by another. In order to avoid an infinite regress in the chain of movers, the existence of an unmoved mover must be acknowledged.

In regard to an “infinite regress”, there appears to be no logical reason known why there cannot be infinite series of events or an infinite series of causes and effects stretching back into the past. Such an infinite series can be conceived of in which any given member or event, X , depended on a preceding event, Y, but once it exists no longer depends here and now for its existence on the prior event. Such a lineal or “horizontal”, and infinite series stretching back into the past would still require an ultimate explanation of its motion, even though the series is infinite.

That is, there is a “vertical” hierarchy in which the lower members or events depend here and now on the present causality of the members or events above it. This vertical hierarchy is one that cannot have an infinite regress of causal dependencies. Perhaps one can imagine here and now a tree whose existence is dependent on many factors in the environment, light, air, water, etc. Those factors depend on the earth, which depends on the sun, and so on. This here and now vertical regress of movers and things moved must terminate in an unmoved mover. Eliminate the unmoved mover and you will have eliminated the entire chain of motion and failed to provide any explanation for motion or change.
 
This is also where you have been unable to follow the argument. If one says the unmoved mover itself is caused then it cannot be an unmoved mover. So, the argument’s conclusion stands while the objection is self-refuting.
“Everything, therefore, is moved by something else. If, then, that by which it is moved, is also moved, this must be moved by something still different, and this, again, by something else. But this process cannot go on to infinity because there would not be any first mover, nor, because of this fact, anything else in motion, as the succeeding things would not move except because of what is moved by the first mover, just as a stick is not moved except through what is moved from the hand.”

Then this is incorrect!! I cannot believe you can not see this, you claim that EVERYTHING is moved by something else then in the very next breath you exempt something from that claim. Either EVERYTHING is moved by something else or not, the minute you exempt something the EVERYTHING need NOT be moved by something else.

ALSO… You provide NO basis for you exemption, other than it supports your argument. This is quite simply special pleading.

Even if there was an ‘unmoved mover’ you provide no justification that it is not 100% natural.

You now have to address the issue of where did you unmoved mover come from, what caused your unmoved mover?

Furthermore we do live in a universe where time is a factor so this is VERY relevant, for in our universe movement is reliant on TIME. You can therefore only apply your argument to this universe, and the furtherest back you can run with it is to the inflation of space-time, where larkin31 quite rightly has pointed out to you everything becomes an unknown so your argument is void.

Your argument has so many wholes it resembles a sieve. I mean is this really the kind of evidence that people from beliefs on? I am truly astonished.
 
The unmoved mover is the sole exception and is necessary for the system to work that science depends on - that of causation.

My understanding is the unmoved mover is not subject to the physical laws of the universe - that is why it can exist uncaused. The universe cannot be its own cause as explained in the argument presented by itinerant1.

In addition, as I explained to you on another thread, one’s faith is not based on a single argument. The principle of triangulation is a scientific one and is relevant here. The unmoved mover argument is not taken in isolation but rather in relation to other facts ( the existence of the universe and its fine tuning) and arguments (objective good; the life and teaching of Jesus and his disciples; subjective experience and intuition).

I am astonished that there are minds unable to step outside the materialist frame of reference and admit that there are things beyond the physical…
 
This seems nothing more than a phylisophical grudge match…God exists.
 
“Everything, therefore, is moved by something else. If, then, that by which it is moved, is also moved, this must be moved by something still different, and this, again, by something else. But this process cannot go on to infinity because there would not be any first mover, nor, because of this fact, anything else in motion, as the succeeding things would not move except because of what is moved by the first mover, just as a stick is not moved except through what is moved from the hand.”

Then this is incorrect!! I cannot believe you can not see this, you claim that EVERYTHING is moved by something else then in the very next breath you exempt something from that claim. Either EVERYTHING is moved by something else or not, the minute you exempt something the EVERYTHING need NOT be moved by something else.

ALSO… You provide NO basis for you exemption, other than it supports your argument. This is quite simply special pleading.

Even if there was an ‘unmoved mover’ you provide no justification that it is not 100% natural.
“special pleading”

THAT is the term I was looking for

yes

In other words, setting up the definitions and conditions that determine the outcome in your favor.
 
“special pleading”

THAT is the term I was looking for

yes

In other words, setting up the definitions and conditions that determine the outcome in your favor.
There is no basis for your assertion. The facts of motion and change are the common experience of mankind, and have been investigated long before any argument for an unmoved mover was ever formulated.

Hence, your objection entails a radical denial of reality, as well as a make-beleive claim about the definitions and conditions.

In my world fantasy does not trump reality.
 
“Everything, therefore, is moved by something else. If, then, that by which it is moved, is also moved, this must be moved by something still different, and this, again, by something else. But this process cannot go on to infinity because there would not be any first mover, nor, because of this fact, anything else in motion, as the succeeding things would not move except because of what is moved by the first mover, just as a stick is not moved except through what is moved from the hand.”

Then this is incorrect!! I cannot believe you can not see this, you claim that EVERYTHING is moved by something else then in the very next breath you exempt something from that claim. Either EVERYTHING is moved by something else or not, the minute you exempt something the EVERYTHING need NOT be moved by something else.
Your personal belief that absolutely everything is moved by another does not stand serious analysis. And it is certainly not a position you can prove.
ALSO… You provide NO basis for you exemption, other than it supports your argument. This is quite simply special pleading.
The basis for the “exemption” as you call it, was established by the argument.
Even if there was an ‘unmoved mover’ you provide no justification that it is not 100% natural.
First, you deny that there can be an unmoved mover, then you say that it must be a natural cause. You can’t have it both ways. You have to state your objection in a consistent manner for it to be seriously considered.
You now have to address the issue of where did you unmoved mover come from, what caused your unmoved mover?
You have not shown that your assumption that an unmoved mover is itself caused makes any logical or ontological sense. Whereas, there are demonstrations to show that the unmoved mover is uncaused, but that is a different argument.
Furthermore we do live in a universe where time is a factor so this is VERY relevant, for in our universe movement is reliant on TIME. You can therefore only apply your argument to this universe, and the furtherest back you can run with it is to the inflation of space-time, where larkin31 quite rightly has pointed out to you everything becomes an unknown so your argument is void.
You are still mischaracterizing the argument as a causal chain reaching back in time. Hence your objection is impertinent to the argument. Furthermore, as you should have grasped from my explanation that the argument assumes the possibility of an eternally existing universe, that no matter whether one believes the universe has always existed, or that there was a series of universes, or nothing existing prior to the beginning of this universe, or any other speculative possibility, the argument still holds. The argument holds as long as there is here and now motion or change.
Your argument has so many wholes it resembles a sieve. I mean is this really the kind of evidence that people from beliefs on? I am truly astonished.
Who forms belief on the argument from motion?

You can assert that the argument is full of holes, but justifying your assertion with logical argument is something you have utterly failed to do. If anything, you have shown a continual inability to correctly understand the argument, as my comments above adequately show.
 
The unmoved mover is the sole exception and is necessary for the system to work that science depends on - that of causation.

My understanding is the unmoved mover is not subject to the physical laws of the universe - that is why it can exist uncaused. The universe cannot be its own cause as explained in the argument presented by itinerant1.

In addition, as I explained to you on another thread, one’s faith is not based on a single argument. The principle of triangulation is a scientific one and is relevant here. The unmoved mover argument is not taken in isolation but rather in relation to other facts ( the existence of the universe and its fine tuning) and arguments (objective good; the life and teaching of Jesus and his disciples; subjective experience and intuition).

I am astonished that there are minds unable to step outside the materialist frame of reference and admit that there are things beyond the physical…
special pleadings noted.
 
The unmoved mover is the sole exception and is necessary for the system to work that science depends on - that of causation.

My understanding is the unmoved mover is not subject to the physical laws of the universe - that is why it can exist uncaused. The universe cannot be its own cause as explained in the argument presented by itinerant1.

In addition, as I explained to you on another thread, one’s faith is not based on a single argument. The principle of triangulation is a scientific one and is relevant here. The unmoved mover argument is not taken in isolation but rather in relation to other facts ( the existence of the universe and its fine tuning) and arguments (objective good; the life and teaching of Jesus and his disciples; subjective experience and intuition).

I am astonished that there are minds unable to step outside the materialist frame of reference and admit that there are things beyond the physical…
You know that is not my position. The point is we cannont make any claims about that which is outside our universe becuase it is an unknown.

“My understanding is the unmoved mover is not subject to the physical laws of the universe”

We can say nothing about that which is outside the universe.
 
Your personal belief that absolutely everything is moved by another does not stand serious analysis. And it is certainly not a position you can prove.
LOL THAT WAS YOUR CLAIM, NOT MINE. Wee hint, when i use the quotations like so “”, that means i am quoting someone.

Also i never said there was an unmoved mover, i was pointing out to you that even IF there was one, that does not then get you straight to god, you now have to demonstrate that your unmoved mover is not natural.

LMAO i love this** “Your personal belief that absolutely everything is moved by another does not stand serious analysis. And it is certainly not a position you can prove.”**

Is that not the whole basis of your argument?

Yep you said "Everything, therefore, is moved by something else" 🤷

I am glad you now admit it "does not stand serious analysis. And it is certainly not a position you can prove.". That is what we have been trying to tell you all along!!! 😃
 
You are still mischaracterizing the argument as a causal chain reaching back in time. Hence your objection is impertinent to the argument. Furthermore, as you should have grasped from my explanation that the argument assumes the possibility of an eternally existing universe, that no matter whether one believes the universe has always existed, or that there was a series of universes, or nothing existing prior to the beginning of this universe, or any other speculative possibility, the argument still holds. The argument holds as long as there is here and now motion or change.
I fail to see why this is so hard for you to grasp, in THIS universe we know that motion is LINKED to time. S=D/T ring a bell. We also know this universe is NOT eternal so you argument has to take in to account the FACTS. And the fact is that the origin of the universe is UNKNOWN and we can not apply the laws of this universe to that which is outside it!
 
I fail to see why this is so hard for you to grasp, in THIS universe we know that motion is LINKED to time. S=D/T ring a bell. We also know this universe is NOT eternal so you argument has to take in to account the FACTS. And the fact is that the origin of the universe is UNKNOWN and we can not apply the laws of this universe to that which is outside it!
LOL! 😛
  1. The argument in no way contradicts the fact that motion is linked to time.
  2. The argument holds whether the universe is finite or eternal. That was clearly explained. You are just ignoring what is being said.
  3. The argument in no way applies the laws of this universe to what is outside of it.
That’s three strikes. You are totally out! I am ringing the bell! 😃
 
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