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itinerant1
Guest
I wasn’t claiming anything. The post was a jest. Sorry you missed the punch line. Don’t you guys have a sense of humor?
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itinerant1
Guest
You are generalizing when you assert that “god did it” is equal to “we don’t know”. However, we do know all generalizations are false. Therefore, you have made an illicit extension of the agnostic principle which says “I don’t know” to include “You don’t know.” Since the logic contained therein utterly fails, we can thereby justify asking ourselves whether this matter becomes a question of intellectual dishonesty, though the agnostic will claim that this is a subjective matter and there is no good scientific evidence to support the suspicion that he is being intellectually dishonest.
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itinerant1
Guest
When the atheist brings up the amputee question, a favorite one for Dawkins and his ilk, they inevitably proffer lame arguments for everyone’s amusement.
Dawkin’s arguments in themselves, represent the severe handicap, whereas a missing limb, to some, is only a significant inconvenience.
Skeptics make a priori denials of the good evidence for miracles, so any evidence, even incontrovertible evidence, for the restoration of a missing limb would do nothing to persuade many atheists of even the possibility that there is something seriously lacking in their world-view.
Hence, I do not waste one moment of my time scouring history, distant past or recent, looking for records of amputee healing.
Dawkin’s arguments in themselves, represent the severe handicap, whereas a missing limb, to some, is only a significant inconvenience.
Skeptics make a priori denials of the good evidence for miracles, so any evidence, even incontrovertible evidence, for the restoration of a missing limb would do nothing to persuade many atheists of even the possibility that there is something seriously lacking in their world-view.
Hence, I do not waste one moment of my time scouring history, distant past or recent, looking for records of amputee healing.
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itinerant1
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Pat Robertson said whoever does not donate to the 700 Club is expendable. As for proof, Pat said Haiti is all the proof anyone needs.
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itinerant1
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AlbertBall got me started on Pat Robertson…now, I don’t know if I can stop…
NEW YORK (The Borowitz Report) - In the wake of his comments about the earthquake in Haiti, televangelist Pat Robertson has become a “public relations nightmare” and a “gynormous embarrassment to me, personally,” God said today.
In a rare press conference at the Grand Hyatt in New York City, the usually reclusive Almighty said that He was taking the unusual step of airing His feelings in public because “enough is enough.”
“I pray that his TV show would just go away, but of course, when you’re me there’s no one to pray to,” God said, to the laughter of the packed room of reporters.
While God held out no hope that Rev. Robertson’s “700 Club” would be canceled any time soon, He did say, somewhat ruefully, “If Pat Robertson were on NBC he’d be replaced by Jay Leno by now.”
NEW YORK (The Borowitz Report) - In the wake of his comments about the earthquake in Haiti, televangelist Pat Robertson has become a “public relations nightmare” and a “gynormous embarrassment to me, personally,” God said today.
In a rare press conference at the Grand Hyatt in New York City, the usually reclusive Almighty said that He was taking the unusual step of airing His feelings in public because “enough is enough.”
“I pray that his TV show would just go away, but of course, when you’re me there’s no one to pray to,” God said, to the laughter of the packed room of reporters.
While God held out no hope that Rev. Robertson’s “700 Club” would be canceled any time soon, He did say, somewhat ruefully, “If Pat Robertson were on NBC he’d be replaced by Jay Leno by now.”
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Geocacher
Guest
This is a really cool thread, that can tie a lot of things together, I been wanting to try a topic like this one.
I have been interested in Astronomy, and Astrophysics for quite sometime. They talk about Black Holes, Dark Matter, and for some time a Big Bang, also GRAVITY. Gravity is still being debated, it is a factor of the Mass of Objects, but no scientists, really know what gravity really is.
We are presently in the Physical Demensions, the big 4, including Time, and the physical demensions, are basically linear, where it takes light a measured amount of time to get places, like Apha Centari, 4 light years to get here. There are actually more demensions than what the human body can be aware of. Heaven n Hell are outside of the physical demensions, and in these other demensions. Gravity itself, like Dark Matter, and probably Black Holes are in these other demensions, but these effect the physical demensions. Magnetism is one thing that is all within the physical demensions, but Gravity is still in question.
Within this physical demension, there is all the evidence of carbon dating and the long physical history of this planet, with those cool dinosaurs that roamed the planet. Outside this physical demensions, many eons ago in Heaven, God commenced the Creation, and all this Matter and energy came into the physical demension. So in the physical sense, it was a Big Bang, but in the spirtual sense(the other demensions), it was the creation.
In the physical sense, God always existed, for he is outside of space and time, that of our physical demension, so both Creation and Big Bang can make sense, in that we no memory of the creation of this universe.
astronomyforum.net/astrophysics-forum/ , I am Geoffr524 over there.
The above link, is down at the moment but it is my favorite place, with all kinds of talk about Gravity, Space, Time, and all things about Astrophysics.
I may have studied about a thosand Near Death Experiences, and back in 2000, I went from a lifetime of a fear-of-death, to having no fear of death. I have had stuff happen to me to prove in a spiritual demension outside of the physical demension. Nothing big, but spiritual things that happened over time to me.
There really is a God, but our Optical and Radio Telescopes can not see him or Heaven quite yet, for much of what we do not know, is not measurable, due to being outside the physical demensions.
I have been interested in Astronomy, and Astrophysics for quite sometime. They talk about Black Holes, Dark Matter, and for some time a Big Bang, also GRAVITY. Gravity is still being debated, it is a factor of the Mass of Objects, but no scientists, really know what gravity really is.
We are presently in the Physical Demensions, the big 4, including Time, and the physical demensions, are basically linear, where it takes light a measured amount of time to get places, like Apha Centari, 4 light years to get here. There are actually more demensions than what the human body can be aware of. Heaven n Hell are outside of the physical demensions, and in these other demensions. Gravity itself, like Dark Matter, and probably Black Holes are in these other demensions, but these effect the physical demensions. Magnetism is one thing that is all within the physical demensions, but Gravity is still in question.
Within this physical demension, there is all the evidence of carbon dating and the long physical history of this planet, with those cool dinosaurs that roamed the planet. Outside this physical demensions, many eons ago in Heaven, God commenced the Creation, and all this Matter and energy came into the physical demension. So in the physical sense, it was a Big Bang, but in the spirtual sense(the other demensions), it was the creation.
In the physical sense, God always existed, for he is outside of space and time, that of our physical demension, so both Creation and Big Bang can make sense, in that we no memory of the creation of this universe.
astronomyforum.net/astrophysics-forum/ , I am Geoffr524 over there.
The above link, is down at the moment but it is my favorite place, with all kinds of talk about Gravity, Space, Time, and all things about Astrophysics.
I may have studied about a thosand Near Death Experiences, and back in 2000, I went from a lifetime of a fear-of-death, to having no fear of death. I have had stuff happen to me to prove in a spiritual demension outside of the physical demension. Nothing big, but spiritual things that happened over time to me.
There really is a God, but our Optical and Radio Telescopes can not see him or Heaven quite yet, for much of what we do not know, is not measurable, due to being outside the physical demensions.
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AlbertBall
Guest
haha dance about the issue all you like, i would just like to know why your god can’t cure amputees.
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Geocacher
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About the Natural Disasters:
The Earth being in the physical demensions, and outside the spiritual demsions, is subject to natural disasters. The Moon orbits the Earth, and stirs up the molton core of the earth. Without the Moon, the molten metal in the Earth would be cooled down, and there would be less magnetism to protect the Earth, for it is Magnetism comming out of the Earth that protects it from lethal radiation. Also the effect of the Moon, and the Sun can lead to natural disasters. We do not know why God does not protect the Earth from these disasters, so making it a challenge to understand the meaning of things.
The Earth being in the physical demensions, and outside the spiritual demsions, is subject to natural disasters. The Moon orbits the Earth, and stirs up the molton core of the earth. Without the Moon, the molten metal in the Earth would be cooled down, and there would be less magnetism to protect the Earth, for it is Magnetism comming out of the Earth that protects it from lethal radiation. Also the effect of the Moon, and the Sun can lead to natural disasters. We do not know why God does not protect the Earth from these disasters, so making it a challenge to understand the meaning of things.
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teadough
Guest
I know. And the person asking the amputee question usually thinks that it is some unique question that has someone painted in a corner. Like they have a " A Ha!!!" moment or something.
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itinerant1
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You say dance about the issue all I like. Well, thank you…I have been…dancing to the song, “Lord of the Dance”…
**I danced in the morning when the world was begun
I danced in the Moon & the Stars & the Sun
I came down from Heaven & I danced on Earth
At Bethlehem I had my birth:
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Dance then, wherever you may be
I am the Lord of the Dance, said He!
And I'll lead you all, wherever you may be
And I'll lead you all in the Dance, said He!
(...lead you all in the Dance, said He!)But they would not dance & they wouldn’t follow me
I danced for fishermen, for James & John
They came with me & the Dance went on:
I danced on the Sabbath & I cured the lame
The holy people said it was a shame!
They whipped & they stripped & they hung me high
And they left me there on a cross to die!
I danced on a Friday when the sky turned black
It’s hard to dance with the devil on your back
They buried my body & they thought I’d gone
But I am the Dance & I still go on!
They cut me down and I leapt up high
I am the Life that’ll never, never die!
I’ll live in you if you’ll live in Me -
I am the Lord of the Dance, said H****e!**
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AlbertBall, et all, You have not formulated the issue correctly. The issue is why YOUR god cannot cure amputees? My God can do anything He so chooses, and what He does is that which He chooses to do, and never what you think He should do. Despite all the demands to see cures of amputees, God does not do On-Demand performances. You will have to get pay TV for that.
And Jesus never walked across Herod’s swimming pool.
Your posts continually remind me of two things. First, those in the time of Christ who demanded to see signs and wonders. You can look it up in the Gospels and see what Jesus said in response to this attitude. There will be a brief quiz afterward to check your reading.
Second, what also comes to mind regarding your posts are the King Herod lyrics in the movie, “Jesus Christ Superstar”…Prove to me that you’re no fool; walk across my swimming pool :
Jesus, I am overjoyed to meet you face to face.
You’ve been getting quite a name all around the place.
Healing cripples, raising from the dead.
And now I understand you’re God,
At least, that’s what you’ve said.
So, you are the Christ, you’re the great Jesus Christ.
Prove to me that you’re divine; change my water into wine.
That’s all you need do, then I’ll know it’s all true.
Come on, King of the Jews.
Jesus, you just won’t believe the hit you’ve made around here.
You are all we talk about, the wonder of the year.
Oh what a pity if it’s all a lie.
Still, I’m sure that you can rock the cynics if you tried.
So, you are the Christ, you’re the great Jesus Christ.
Prove to me that you’re no fool; walk across my swimming pool.
If you do that for me, then I’ll let you go free.
Come on, King of the Jews.
I only ask what I’d ask any superstar.
What is it that you have got that puts you where you are.
I am waiting, yes I’m a captive fan.
I’m dying to be shown that you are not just any man.
So, if you are the Christ, yes the great Jesus Christ
Feed my household with this bread.
You can do it on your head.
Or has something gone wrong. Jesus, why do you take so long?
Oh come on, King of the Jews.
Hey! Aren’t you scared of me Christ?
Mr. Wonderful Christ?
You’re a joke. You’re not the Lord.
You are nothing but a fraud.
Take him away.
He’s got nothing to say!
Get out you King of the,
Get out King of the,
Oh get out you King of the Jews!
Get out of here!
Get out of here you,
Get out of my life.
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itinerant1
Guest
It’s a useless line of questioning. For instance, the question, “Why can’t God heal amputees?” implies that God is not omnipotent; but if he is not omnipotent, then it is not God that is being discussed.
The question, “Why doesn’t God heal amputees?” implies that he never has healed an amputee. But if some cases from history are cited, those get arbitrarily discounted, and the question then gets changed to “Why doesn’t God heal amputees in the present day under strictly controlled situations, which can be recorded, video-taped, observed by many scientists, (and so on)?” It then becomes clear what the skeptic is up to.
If an atheist seriously thinks that God does not heal amputees, why is he asking Christians? The only satisfying answer can come from God. Oops!
Many physical and psychological disorders can be used for the same purposes. “Why doesn’t God heal micro-cephalics, Lou Gehrig’s disease, Elephantiasis, and so on under strict and verifiable conditions?” The current fixation on amputee healing is fashionable with some atheists, and the “argument” appeals to the unlearned. It does not represents a significant, educated, or even sensible argument regarding the non-existence of God.
A sensible argument, on the other hand, might involve asking how a benevolent God can permit such things as diseases, deformities, debilitating strokes, loss of body parts such as limbs and eyes, and so on. A sensible argument, though, has not yet been raised in this thread.
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Bob4BVM
Guest
Thank you itinerant1, your posts 169 & 170 are right on !
My feelings lean toward pity for those who refuse to consider the existence of God due to ‘lack of proof’ . Knowing what I know now, some days I actually ACHE for them.
When I consider the cure God has worked in my life, some days I have to pinch myself to realize I am not just dreaming. But you know what ? NOTHING happened until I (insert very long, personal, story here) finally came to Him as the little child of His that I really am.
Conversion (true conversion, of the heart…) is an amazing experience. It opens up possibilities beyond anything we could possibly imagine beforehand.
But alas, it is one of those things that is only knowable thru personal experience. And as long as we hang onto our pride and arrogance, it’ll never happen.
Beware. Be careful. We live in a society which for a large part, DESPERATELY HOPES that ‘god is not really there’.
For anyone who does not believe that God is there, I can only offer this–Try Asking HIM, from the heart. You might be surprised.
My feelings lean toward pity for those who refuse to consider the existence of God due to ‘lack of proof’ . Knowing what I know now, some days I actually ACHE for them.
When I consider the cure God has worked in my life, some days I have to pinch myself to realize I am not just dreaming. But you know what ? NOTHING happened until I (insert very long, personal, story here) finally came to Him as the little child of His that I really am.
Conversion (true conversion, of the heart…) is an amazing experience. It opens up possibilities beyond anything we could possibly imagine beforehand.
But alas, it is one of those things that is only knowable thru personal experience. And as long as we hang onto our pride and arrogance, it’ll never happen.
Beware. Be careful. We live in a society which for a large part, DESPERATELY HOPES that ‘god is not really there’.
For anyone who does not believe that God is there, I can only offer this–Try Asking HIM, from the heart. You might be surprised.
Hell is Truth Seen Too Late. (Thomas Hobbes)
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Bob4BVM
Guest
My dear Albert,
Your line of reasoning is not new.
Your argument brings this quote to mind:
“Deviating from faith, they are implicated in the darkness of perpetual blindness, although they have the day of Christ and the light of the Church before them; while seeing nothing, they open their mouth as if they knew everything, keen for vain things and dull for things eternal.” ---- Ambrose, Bishop, Father and Doctor of the Church, Saint; commenting in the 4th century on the “wise of the world”
I was once in your camp my friend. Believe me, there is more to this world than you or I can ever imagine—proof or no proof.
But don’t take my word for it–Try asking HIM. (Pls see my prev post #171)
“The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. (1 Corinthians 1:23,24)
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itinerant1
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It looks like you have seen life from both sides. Unlike yourself, I can only relate to atheism intellectually or theoretically. I have never doubted the existence of God since I have always been aware of and experienced his presence. My faith is based on that experience.
What St. Paul said to the Romans has always been true for me: “Ever since God created the world his everlasting power and deity–however invisible–have been there for the mind to see in the things he has made.” This has always my experience when close to nature. I am totally perplexed and saddened by the fact many people can know so much about creation while knowing so little, or in the case of atheism, know nothing at all, about its Creator.
I think there are some folks who honestly don’t know that God exists, while there are others who make a studied refusal, out of personal hostility or resentment, to acknowledge His existence, even to themselves.
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kimmielittle
Guest
Hiyas
As for me…I’ll stand by what the Martyrs held… you know…those faced with horrible deaths…but wouldn’t deny - come to think of it - has there ever been an Atheist Martyr? ]
Could you source this above statement, please/?
Or don’t see what they should…just saying.
As for me…I’ll stand by what the Martyrs held… you know…those faced with horrible deaths…but wouldn’t deny - come to think of it - has there ever been an Atheist Martyr? ]
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AlbertBall
Guest
Sure go to google scholar and search for “prayer”.Hiyas
Could you source this above statement, please/?
Or don’t see what they should…just saying.
As for me…I’ll stand by what the Martyrs held… you know…those faced with horrible deaths…but wouldn’t deny - come to think of it - has there ever been an Atheist Martyr? ]
“you know…those faced with horrible deaths…but wouldn’t deny - come to think of it - has there ever been an Atheist Martyr”
HAHAHA your kidding right?
Oh and i guess if you thinking dying for ones religion make is right you must also believe in…
http://www.israelnewsagency.com/cherney911terrorism.jpg
Here the thing, martyrs are not actually “in their mind” dying. For they believe that they are off to an eternal life. However any atheist that gives up their life is a MUCH MORE powerful act. For we know, when your dead, well… your dead!
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itinerant1
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Your response is what is dead, as in DOA. It deserves a suitable burial.
That some people misuse religion for acts of violence proves that some people misuse use religion for acts of violence. And that an atheist can evoke personal feelings of being MUCH MORE powerful than deluded suicide bombers, Nietzsche’s Ubermensch, Power Rangers or Buzz Lightyear proves nothing about the existence of God.
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AlbertBall
Guest
“If you could only just believe in god, you would believe in him” is the worst argument of them all. As for “pride and arrogance”, get over yourself. If only it wasn’t for your “pride and arrogance” you would worship Allah! See how silly you are being. “Pride and arrogance” have NOTHING to do with it, EVIDENCE DOES. There is not a single shred to suggest a god exists, so i don’t believe in one. Now you can call that “pride and arrogance” all you like, i call it reality.
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AlbertBall
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Violence was NOT the point. The point was simple and clear, dying in the name of religion says nothing about the validity of the religion. Do you disagree?
Is it, dying in the name of religion says nothing about the validity of the religion. Oh unless it’s dying in the same of your religion of course??
As for the volience of 911, believe me i was horrified by 911. However what you have to remember is as someone who lacks any religious faith, i do not see the difference in religions. I saw 911 as an extreme case of how religion can affect people. Islam, Christianity etc they are all the same to me, no better or no worse than each other.
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anode
Guest
And many amputees lose their jobs or cannot be hired after they lose a limb. It is devastating to them. I think that it is interesting that you so airily dismiss the catastrophe of becoming an amputee.So your saying he can’t?
Tales of levitation and translocation must be proved scientifically if anyone is to believe such tales.
And if one is to look around for evidence for the existence of the all-knowing, all-merciful god, I would say look around for the lack of evidence–which is everywhere. It is much harder to marshall evidence for a belief in this god than for a lack of belief.
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