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AlbertBall
Guest
There is no ban in this area of the forum. Well nothing meantioned in the Non-Catholic Religions stickys
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itinerant1
Guest
You are correct! It’s about time you got something right in this thread! LOL
The ban on discussing atheism is effective for the Philosophy Forum only: “For the foreseeable future, there shall be no discussion in the Philosophy Forum of evolution or atheism.”
However, there is a permanent ban in the Non-Catholic Religions Forum on atheism itself.
All, jesting aside, I’m back with the discussion.
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itinerant1
Guest
I don’t have access to the Fatima case studies right now, so that will be coming later. We could consider under the same principle the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe on the Juan Diego’s tilma. Human causality has been ruled out. I mentioned this earlier. Furthermore, if you recall, I referred to scientific evidence, including the judgments of scientists, and in medical cases those testimonies and medical records (x-rays, lab test results, etc.) of doctors as well, as constituting additional “supporting” evidence for a supra-natural explanation.By the way i have read both his books, and yes he does.
When doctors say something is unexplained that is exactly what it is, unexplained. Please tell me how you get from “we are not sure why you got better to”… god did it!!!
Oh and ruling out A natural explanation does not mean you are ruling out ALL natural explanation.
Ok enough of the unfounded assertions, please point me to the cases where scientists have ruled out any possible natural explanation for someone recovering from an illness.
Oh and what you are providing IS god of the gaps, your whole argument boils down to the doctors do know why something happen, so god must have done it. THAT IS god of the gaps. Like i said i would like to see specific cases now please.
As supporting factors, they are included with specifically known and experienced religious factors. Hence, there is actually a confluence of evidence from diverse sources. The religious factors may include prayer for the specific event which could be a healing; apparitions as at Guadalupe; or apparitions, prayers, and prediction of a sign, i.e. the “miracle of the sun” witnessed by a large crowd consisting of believers and skeptics on the predicted day.
So, when scientists rule out natural explanations that is not the sole factor taken into account. There is, as stated, a confluence of evidence that is seriously examined.
Such is not the case with unexpected death. Medical experts may not know or understand the specific cause, but nonetheless some natural cause is rightly considered to be the only possible explanation because there are no other known factors of a wholly different nature to even consider. This is what makes these kinds of situations radically different from the situations described above.
Now, if one takes a situation like Guadalupe and asserts there must be a natural or a human explanation, even though centuries of scientists have ruled out those possibilities, it is tantamount to a deep prejudice, which may be due to a faulty and unprovable epistemology and ontology, such as is characteristic of positivism. Or, it may simply result from an atheistic prejudice that refuses to acknowledge the stronger case, or, because the evidence so much as hints at the existence of the supra-natural and God.
If I might suggest a characterization of a positivistic logic, it would be one that makes Natural Cause into a ubiquitous god. I will call this periodically employed logic a “NC god of the gaps” argument, which inevitably gets asserted whenever scientists rule out any possible human or natural explanation.
Returning to the earlier subject of deaths, there are some cases where strictly natural causes cannot provide a satisfactory explanation. I will describe one of the more bizarre cases from occult and ritualistic crimes investigations. This case was in New York and investigated by two very experienced homicide detectives. The crimes involved a young boy who killed his parents and committed suicide. The “unexplainable” phenomenon was that the boy almost completely decapitated himself with his small, folding Boy Scout knife. Of course, any person knowledgeable in these matters, as well as common judgment, will rightly it is not possible to decapitate oneself with a small blade. Yet, judging from the evidence, no other conclusion was even remotely possible.
I listened to a radio interview of the homicide detectives tell the entire story in far too much detail. Forensics concluded the boy did decapitate himself, or nearly so, while such a thing is not possible. The detectives said they could not articulate in their investigative reports what they believed to be a complete explanation for the boy’s death.
However, the point here is that not only was the physical evidence thoroughly studied, but there was additional evidence that confirmed the detectives “unofficial” conclusion. The once apparently normal and young Boy Scout began experimenting with occultic practices with a couple of friends not too long before the homicides and “suicide.”
So, we see here a confluence of factors contributing to a non-natural explanation of death.
On the other hand, a positivist’s explanation, one that denies supra-natural reality, will be forced to conclude that the laws of physics and everything we know about human anatomy and physiology, was suspended on the day of the suicide, thereby creating an even more fantastic and unbelievable explanation that what the homicide investigators concluded.
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Joseph_L_Varga
Guest
AlbertBall and itinerant1,
forgive me for intervening in your discussion. I just wanted to post a recent “miracle” (official judgment of the Catholic Church), which was called a “remarkable event” by the doctor who diagnosed and treated this cancer patient, a lady from Hawaii. The miracle occured in 1998-1999, and St. Damien a 19th c. Belgian missionary to the Hawaiian leper colonies was canonized (declared saint) in part because of this miracle, on October 11, 2009. The lady who miraculously recovered from metastatic cancer in 1998-1999, after she prayed for Father Damien’s intercession, is still alive, and she attended the canonization ceremony in Rome where Pope B16 declared Fr Damien a saint recently.
I want to point out that this lady recovered AFTER SHE PRAYED to Fr. Damien and asked him to intercede for her with God so that she might be healed. In contrast, many atheists will refuse to turn to God and his Saints and Angels for intercession, even when they get sick with cancer or find themselves in some other trouble. And, unsurprisingly, they will never recover like this Hawaiian lady did.
Also, please observe another earlier miracle attributed to the saint’s intercession, quoted from the 3rd link below:
"On June 13, 1992, Pope John Paul II approved the 1895 cure of a Sacred Hearts Sister in France as the miracle needed for Father Damien’s beatification.
In that case, Sister Simplicia Hue of France began a novena to Father Damien as she lay dying at age 37 of a lingering intestinal illness. The pain and symptoms of the illness disappeared overnight on Sept. 11, 1895, and Sister Simplicia lived for another 32 years.
Pope John Paul II beatified Father Damien on June 4, 1995, in Brussels, Belgium."
Again, this French nun recovered AFTER SHE PRAYED to Fr. Damien, yet another case that I’m sure, will do nothing to persuade certain atheists who will be way too proud to humble themselves and bend their knees in prayer, in a similar situation… and they will never be healed, because they never ask…
honoluluadvertiser.com/article/20090824/NEWS01/908240345/Father-Damien%5C-s-%5C-miracle-woman%5C–humble-despite-worldwide-fame
honoluluadvertiser.com/article/20091008/NEWS22/910080366/Pope-greets-Damien-miracle-woman-from-Hawaii
hawaiicatholicherald.com/BlessedDamien/tabid/311/newsid916/414/Default.aspx
catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0802469.htm
forgive me for intervening in your discussion. I just wanted to post a recent “miracle” (official judgment of the Catholic Church), which was called a “remarkable event” by the doctor who diagnosed and treated this cancer patient, a lady from Hawaii. The miracle occured in 1998-1999, and St. Damien a 19th c. Belgian missionary to the Hawaiian leper colonies was canonized (declared saint) in part because of this miracle, on October 11, 2009. The lady who miraculously recovered from metastatic cancer in 1998-1999, after she prayed for Father Damien’s intercession, is still alive, and she attended the canonization ceremony in Rome where Pope B16 declared Fr Damien a saint recently.
I want to point out that this lady recovered AFTER SHE PRAYED to Fr. Damien and asked him to intercede for her with God so that she might be healed. In contrast, many atheists will refuse to turn to God and his Saints and Angels for intercession, even when they get sick with cancer or find themselves in some other trouble. And, unsurprisingly, they will never recover like this Hawaiian lady did.
Also, please observe another earlier miracle attributed to the saint’s intercession, quoted from the 3rd link below:
"On June 13, 1992, Pope John Paul II approved the 1895 cure of a Sacred Hearts Sister in France as the miracle needed for Father Damien’s beatification.
In that case, Sister Simplicia Hue of France began a novena to Father Damien as she lay dying at age 37 of a lingering intestinal illness. The pain and symptoms of the illness disappeared overnight on Sept. 11, 1895, and Sister Simplicia lived for another 32 years.
Pope John Paul II beatified Father Damien on June 4, 1995, in Brussels, Belgium."
Again, this French nun recovered AFTER SHE PRAYED to Fr. Damien, yet another case that I’m sure, will do nothing to persuade certain atheists who will be way too proud to humble themselves and bend their knees in prayer, in a similar situation… and they will never be healed, because they never ask…
honoluluadvertiser.com/article/20090824/NEWS01/908240345/Father-Damien%5C-s-%5C-miracle-woman%5C–humble-despite-worldwide-fame
honoluluadvertiser.com/article/20091008/NEWS22/910080366/Pope-greets-Damien-miracle-woman-from-Hawaii
hawaiicatholicherald.com/BlessedDamien/tabid/311/newsid916/414/Default.aspx
catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0802469.htm
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itinerant1
Guest
Well said. As you know, if a person is not open to the truth, no amount of evidence will convince him, even though the evidence for miracles is overwhelming.
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itinerant1
Guest
The Guadalupe Tilma: Our Lady of Guadalupe
The Mystery in Our Lady’s eyes
Our Lady of Guadalupe ‘completely beyond’ scientific explanation, says researcher
The Tilma of Guadalupe: A Scientific Analysis
The Mystery in Our Lady’s eyes
Our Lady of Guadalupe ‘completely beyond’ scientific explanation, says researcher
The Tilma of Guadalupe: A Scientific Analysis
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itinerant1
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Joseph_L_Varga
Guest
Let me get this straight. In 1921, a terrorist hides a bomb among the bouquets of flowers placed right in front and below of the tilma. When the bomb goes off, the marble floor is broken and a brass crucifix close to the tilma is twisted, yet the tilma suffers no damage at all, and even the ordinary glass panel which was originally placed in front of the tilma in order to protect it from the smoke of the candles, remains unharmed. This glass panel, within the immediate vicinity of the bomb, stays intact, but windows as far away as 150 meters are broken by the shock wave.
In situations like this, it must be a really tough job to look for purely natural explanations… Heck, I’m sure it takes A LOT OF FAITH to deny the possibility of supernatural intervention!
I don’t have enough faith for this kind of unshakeable atheism.
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AlbertBall
Guest
Some times people recover from illness, this is a statistical fact.
. That fact that some of them might pray means nothing.Let me put is to you this way, why does god never cure amputees?
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AlbertBall
Guest
Honestly, you have to be kidding. Wild claims and speculation. Why not give the image to the natural history museum and let them inspect it. Why such the usual secrecy, why not put a bomb next to it in front of 10000 witnesses and under scientific conditions?Let me get this straight. In 1921, a terrorist hides a bomb among the bouquets of flowers placed right in front and below of the tilma. When the bomb goes off, the marble floor is broken and a brass crucifix close to the tilma is twisted, yet the tilma suffers no damage at all, and even the ordinary glass panel which was originally placed in front of the tilma in order to protect it from the smoke of the candles, remains unharmed. This glass panel, within the immediate vicinity of the bomb, stays intact, but windows as far away as 150 meters are broken by the shock wave.
In situations like this, it must be a really tough job to look for purely natural explanations… Heck, I’m sure it takes A LOT OF FAITH to deny the possibility of supernatural intervention!
miraclesofislam.com/
I guess its time to convert to Islam. LOOK Allah’s name is written on Africa!!!
http://www.miraclesofislam.com/africa.jpg
In fact forget your puny wee bomb, this Mosques Stood through** Earthquake and Tsunami**!!! Wow, well thats it for me.
In situations like this, it must be a really tough job to look for purely non allah explanations… Heck, I’m sure it takes A LOT OF FAITH to deny the possibility of allah intervention! I don’t have enough faith for this kind of unshakeable nonislamism.
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anode
Guest
This body is covered by a wax mask which was made after the body was washed and began to turn color–something which wouldn’t happen if it was ‘miraculously’ incorrupt. A number of the so-called incorrupt are simply mummified corpses which did not rot in the usual way. This is not hard to understand if you realize that many of these died after long illnesses in which they used up their body fat and that their intestines were empty, so that they were virtually mummified before they died, and placed in a sealed casket above ground ir in a vault above ground. The face of St. Bernadette does not resemble that on her last photo–in her casket–sunken eyes, very sharp nose, small thin mouth, small chin, a woman so thin that no body fat remained anywhere. Most of these corpses were also buried in well sealed caskets and many not buried at all, but placed in sealed caskets in vaults.
A recent poster on here or Phatmass visited Bernadette’s corpse in recent years and was able to see the rotted face under the mask.
A number of other corpses have been found to be ‘incorrupt’–such as one of the late Romanovs, disinterred for DNA. It’s not common because most people who die stay buried, and currently, are cremated.
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itinerant1
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True, but that is not what is being asserted here. Re-read the statements.
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itinerant1
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Some of the surviving bodies have undergone a limited degree of degeneration, but your blanket explanations do not appply to every situation. This you can find out by reading a careful study of each case, such as is contained in the book “The Incorruptibles”. Hence, your counter arguments are of little value since they consist of generalizations.
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itinerant1
Guest
A well built structure such as a mosque that survives natural disasters is not unusual. Americans are not the only ones who can build sturdy structures and earthquake resistant buildings. Nothing unusual about that. The presidential palace in Haiti was not built to withstand a 7.0 earthquake. All naturally explainable.Honestly, you have to be kidding. Wild claims and speculation. Why not give the image to the natural history museum and let them inspect it. Why such the usual secrecy, why not put a bomb next to it in front of 10000 witnesses and under scientific conditions?
miraclesofislam.com/
I guess its time to convert to Islam. LOOK Allah’s name is written on Africa!!!
http://www.miraclesofislam.com/africa.jpg
In fact forget your puny wee bomb, this Mosques Stood through** Earthquake and Tsunami**!!! Wow, well thats it for me.
http://www.miraclesofislam.com/indomosque1.jpeg
In situations like this, it must be a really tough job to look for purely non allah explanations… Heck, I’m sure it takes A LOT OF FAITH to deny the possibility of allah intervention! I don’t have enough faith for this kind of unshakeable nonislamism.
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itinerant1
Guest
I don’t know of anyone so thoroughly versed in history that they can categorically state that no amputee was ever cured. Whence comes your super-human knowledge?Some times people recover from illness, this is a statistical fact.
Let me put is to you this way, why does god never cure amputees?
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AlbertBall
Guest
Well I’m sure they many are praying for god to help them all the time. We know people get better from cancer, this is a statistical fact. We know people never grow new limbs. Isn’t it strange how god can only cure the first lot??
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itinerant1
Guest
Just for clarification, the Incorruptibles are being presented not as if every case is miraculous, but for purposes of consideration. I would claim the miraculous only for situations in which the Church has made a positive affirmation. This is good guide because the Church is extremely cautious in these matters and never makes a judgement until a protracted and thorough investigation is conducted. The investigations are very exacting and are far more thorough and objective than any ever conducted by atheists. Hence, non-believers can never legitimately claim to have more understanding than the Church in these matters.
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itinerant1
Guest
You are now talking in circles. No one can possibly have that kind of knowledge to assert that no amputees have ever been cured. Yours is an argument from ignorance: Since you are unaware of any claim, then no such claims here ever been made. Not very logical.Well I’m sure they many are praying for god to help them all the time. We know people get better from cancer, this is a statistical fact. We know people never grow new limbs. Isn’t it strange how god can only cure the first lot??
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Joseph_L_Varga
Guest
For our atheist friends who will immediately jump and suggest that the bodies have been embalmed… THE BODIES HAVE NOT BEEN EMBALMED! NOTHING WAS DONE TO PRESERVE THEM!
Look at the otherworldly beauty of St. Bernadette Soubiros (posted by itinerant1), the visionary of Lourdes (France), who saw Our Lady in 1858. She has been dead since 1879, but she looks as if she were only asleep. During her life, she only had suffering and illness, asthma, tuberculosis. When she died, some 130 years ago, she was buried like anyone else. Yet in some 45 years in a damp grave, decay could not touch her body. Finally, the body was removed from the grave, placed in a glass casket, and exhibited at the Convent of Nevers (France), where it can be visited today.
Consider the case of St. Francis Xavier, one of the funniest “oops” cases of incorruption. When he died at the shores of China, in 1552, the decision was made to place a layer of lime below and another layer on top of the body at burial, to hasten decomposition. They planned to exhume his bones in a few months, and send them back to his native Spain in order that they be reburied there. And they added the lime to ensure that the flesh be consumed quickly, so that in a few months they could remove his bones from the grave. But, imagine their surprise, when they found that the body stayed intact… And the body stayed supple, and bled as if a living body, when cut… Not exactly what happens to corpses, under the laws of nature. Corpses naturally become rigid and do not bleed due to the coagulation of blood. Unless, of course, there is a supernatural cause to keep them supple and life-like.
How about St Josaphat Kuncevyc, the martyr Bishop who was killed in 1623 by gunshots and an axe blow to the head, and thrown into the river Dvina? That’s not exactly the way to preserve a body, either! Yet, his body was recovered some days later, incorrupt, and it was buried. Five years later, the exhumed body was still incorrupt, and according to the testimony of a recent visitor to Rome, the body remains incorrupt in our days, almost 400 years after the saint’s death.
newadvent.org/cathen/08503b.htm
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=336211
I think the incorruption of the bodies of saints, and the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ after his crucifixion, are meant to teach us an important lesson regarding the dignity of the body, in God’s plans. Those who will enter Heaven, will have their bodies and souls exist there for eternity, but their glorified bodies after resurrection will be different from our mortal bodies we have now. I personally find it deeply comforting that God has a plan to glorify and preserve for eternity our souls AND OUR BODIES, in the kingdom of Heaven. Quite different than what one would expect without God and based on natural science alone - that would be utter and irreversible destruction of our bodies after death.
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itinerant1
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Franciscan writers tell the story of how St. Anthony of Padua cured a boy with an amputed foot. Fact or legend?
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