For Those Who Aren't Catholic

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Xavier:
But didnt the arrogance and pride of the Catholic heirarcy hurt the body of Christ? Didnt it hurt Christs Church? Did it not contribute to the reformation?
The answers to these questions are yes, yes, and of course.

You can slam Luther all you want, but were it not for the RCC’s actions in the preceding centuries, there would not have been any Catholics who would have agreed with Luther.

Where did Luther’s popular support come from?

Peace
 
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savone:
Instead of “For Those Who Aren’t Catholic,” perhaps a more fitting name for the thread might have been “More Luther Bashing”. :confused:
Sorry if I come across that way. My dearest childhood friend Gary (we lived two doors apart from age 1 until we moved away from home) was Lutheran, and one day we went to his church. I don’t remember much of anything except when it came time to “kneel” they did not; they “sat forward.”

Gary’s mother apparently had a problem with Catholics, though she never came out and told me so. Those days (60s) adults typically did not tell kids their true feelings like they seem to do now. What I do remember is that she mocked Catholics for “kneeling” and said they “sit forward” as if that made them morally superior.

Therefore my entire characature of Lutherans is based on that, and other such times – like the time Gary’s mom told us to say the Our Father together once when I was staying over at his house, specifically so she could gloat over his Our Father being longer than mine. This was when we were like in third grade.

On the other hand, she would insult Gary in front of me when it came to academic tasks, like when Gary was doing math homework. There were other factors I don’t even care to mention.

It didn’t work. We did not compete. We were buddies from the cradle, Lutheran and Catholic. I was the academic one and he was the social one. I went into engineering, he into business. I have a wonderful family, he has a wonderful family.

Guess what? He married a wonderful Catholic, and is raising his kids Catholic. :dancing:I think he even goes to Church with them, but I may be mistaken. We communicate sporadically.

Gary is one of the maybe five people on this planet that I would entrust with anything in the world that was mine.

I can honestly say that my best friend in the world is a Lutheran. I do not have a problem with those who are Lutheran, other than the warning that the Catholic Church believes they are not receiving the whole truth.

Alan

P.S. His parents always treated me as their own child, although they did make us compete. They helped me learn a great deal about life (after all his dad was a salesman and mine an engineer so they looked at things very differently). Looking back at it, they were a wonderful influence on me, and I cannot imagine growing up without them. God rest their souls. They will never be replaced on this earth.
 
Here’s how I try to decide whether I’m going to condemn somebody in my mind for what they did to themselves, other human beings, or even the Church.

For example, should I condemn Luther for starting a competing church? (Leaving his other baggage aside for the moment.)

First I think when Jesus said, “Father forgive them for they know not what they do” does that include Martin Luther? If Martin Luther himself were hammering a nail into Christ’s hands, would Jesus’s words apply to him? If we were hammering a nail, would the words apply to us? Isn’t this what we are doing when we sin? Collectively, of course. I don’t believe Christ suffers in the flesh any more.

As far as I can figure from my limited knowledge of this topic, didn’t Jesus say that all were saved except Judas? Or was this of some subset of people?

The next thing that I think of is the story of the person whose debt was forgiven, but he held another man responsible for a much smaller debt. This is where I normally have to stop myself short from wishing, for example, that Luther never existed. If I honestly think that I can improve the present by rewriting the past, then I have a desire to play God. What if we could have seen to it that Luther was “miscarried” and some saint “survived” instead? Would we dare rewrite history if we had the power to really play God?

Then I realize anything I can’t control, including everything in the past (even my own past of five seconds ago) is something I had better accept. Sometimes I like to rethink situations to figure a way to do it better, but it doesn’t pay to carry around guilt. If you are guilty, pray, and if mortal (and even if not) find healing in Reconciliation.

Alan
 
  1. Mary - what’s the big deal? Martin Luther was devoted to Mary and her *prayers have helped many to go closer to Christ.
    *5. The communion of saints: Why do Catholics pray to saints? Catholics don’t pray to saints. We strive to imitate their holiness and ask them (who are already in heaven) to pray to God for us and other people.
we are to be devoted to one person and that is god…and the only way you can get closer to jesus is to study and pray…its a lifestyle…a relationship…would be like me saying to my best friend…“hey talk to my wife for me and help me get closer” makes no sense…we have direct connection to the father through jesus christ we can talk to him directly…no need for any other person to mediate…you quoted “catholics don’t pray to saints” yet…you said “ask them (who are already in heaven) to pray to god for us andother people” isn’t that praying to saints???..if you believe that your talking to the spirit of a deceased person in order to pray to god for you…that in my book is praying to saint and having them mediate for you…which there is only one mediator between god and man…no one else is worthy to mediate.

Ceasar
 
“… there is only one mediator between god and man…” Is that why Jesus asked us to ask others to pray for each other? Why not ask those in Heaven that are infintely more righteous and pure than we are? As for praying to etc saints-thats really a matter of definition. I just searched dictionary.com-

Prayer


  1. *] To utter or address a prayer or prayers to God, a god, or another object of worship.
    *] To make a fervent request or entreaty.

    We pray to God with definition 1.; but to the saints with 2.; asking them that they in turn pray to God so that he may aid us.

    And Mary was so close to Christ, and observed him well, that we could learn a lot by learning about her.

    Posted by “jimmy:”

    "We honor Mary in reference to God. When we honor Mary we are ultimately honoring God because it is her love for God and her fiat, “let it be done to me according to thy will” that cause us to honor her. In Augustines “On Christian Doctrine” he talks about “Use” versus “Enjoyment”. “Enjoyment” is kind of like a love for the being or thing for what it is. “Use” is accorded to something that helps you to get to God. All objects would fall under use. “Enjoyment” is accorded to God, and God alone for who he is. He is the unchanging and eternal being. Mary, and all other saints, are enjoyed due to God. All “enjoyment” is in reference to God. We love our neighbor because of God.

    This is the same when we are honoring Mary. It is all in reference to God. You can see that this is not placing Mary in Gods place, instead we are honoring Mary as one of Gods great creations, and consequently we are honoring God himself."

    “Abandoning the Mother is one step from abandoning the Son.”
 
Grace & Peace!

I’ll be honest, here. I’m an Anglican (of the Episcopalian vairety). I was raised a Congregationalist, educated at a Baptist school, attended a Lutheran church for four years, and am now Anglican. I consider myself Anglo-Catholic. I cannot deny that I feel drawn to Roman Catholicism and have lately been seriously questioning myself regarding moving towards Rome (it seems that my spiritual life is leading in that direction). That’s the principle reason I joined these forums.

But I must confess that the things that constantly give me pause, that prevent me from making any further movement towards Rome are few, but they are, to me, important. And they have little to do with the questions asked above. I know the difference between dulia, hyperdulia, and latria. I say the rosary. I love the Theotokos. I have a particular love for Sts Thomas, Athanasius, Clement of Alexandria, Pseudo Dionysius, John of the Cross. I have a love for Origen, Marsilio Ficino, Jean Borella, Hans Urs von Balthasar. I believe in transubstantiation. I have a love for church tradition and enjoy reading about the theology and metaphysics of the faith. But here are my issues. Perhaps someone can address them? Forgive me if I sound critical–I do not mean to.

1–A perceived lack of compassion. It seems to me, on these boards in particular, that Catholic witness puts an emphasis on orthodox belief and behavior to the detriment of love and compassion. I do not believe that the truth is multiple, I do not believe that morality is relative, but I do believe that, in terms of moral theology in particular, that the moment that morals become an end to themselves, when holding the right moral views are the end of moral theology, then what is advocated is the creation of moral robots. Morality without love is a clanging cymbal. Empty. Meaningless.

I understand that the magesterium of the church must promulgate a moral theology that aims towards perfection, but to do so with absolutism, to do so without recognizing that babes need milk and the mature need meat is to reduce the complexity of humanity and of human individualities to untenable binary oppositions–faithful-unfaithful, moral-immoral, good person-bad person. William Blake writes, “One law for the lion and the ox is oppression.” And he’s right. Paul writes, “All things are permissible, but not all things are profitable.” Moral law is clear–granted. But it seems that moral law, without an individual conscience guided by love, is relatively worthless and reduces the faith to merely a behavior modification system.

2–An attitude that discourages religious questioning and inquiry. It seems to me (and I’ll be honest, I do not find this exclusively in the RC Church) that moral questioning, theological questioning, is frowned upon in Roman Catholicism. How is one to grow without asking questions, without putting one’s mind and heart and soul into the fearful crucible of doubt? How will we mature as Christians if we are always satisfied with the easy milk of moral theology, if we do not seek the meat of challenge? It’s one thing to accept doctrine and magesterium. It’s another to take it for granted. It seems to me that doctrine and magesterium should be lights in the night of faith, but we should not, as moths to the flame, hover close to these lights and refuse to progress to the blinding dawn of greater intimacy with God through Christ. They should illuminate the heights of our aspiration, our faith, to enable us, by grace, to climb there. Otherwise, what good will they do us? We can profess the gospel with our lips, we can make moral pronouncments all we want, but if we don’t live it, if it’s not a part of us, if it lives on the surface of our faith rather than in the depths of our being, then I’m afraid that we have put doctrine before love and squandered our faith on good feelings and moral/theological complacency that allows us to look down on those who believe differently, or behave differently, to patronize them, or worse, to simply reject them as worthless out of hand. This, of course, is the struggle of faith–but shouldn’t faith be a struggle? Isn’t the life of faith compared to an atheltic contest by Paul?

Continued…
 
…continued

3–A take it or leave it attitude to the liturgy. I’ve been to a number of Roman Catholic masses in which respect shown to the mass is minimal–people coming in to do the minimum expected of them–coming in late, leaving early. The sense that Mass is a obligation. Nothing more. That God wants it, so its done, let’s make God happy because the news comes on in 15 minutes so we need to get out of here fast. This placating God theology (that, again, is not just found in Roman Catholicism) I think is poisonous–the root of it is the image of an angry wrathful Old-Man God, and the attitude towards this is image is one of fear (not awe as in “The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom”), not love, but fear grounded in disdain.

So these are my issues. I don’t worry about “what church is right” or “who has the authority”–for me, the Church of God includes Protestant, Orthodox, and Roman Catholic. To be honest, it’s true that I find guidance in the fathers of the church, and mostly in thinkers and theologians of Eastern and Western Christianity, but I do not think that the deposit of faith in scripture and tradition is exclusively the domain of Rome, nor do I believe that only Roman hermeneutics can uncover the richness of its treasures. Granted, it is sad to see some Protestant church bodies ignore tradition, and I do think that recovering tradition would be helpful for many churches. But the Apostle does not write, “they will know we are Christian by our tradition.” The Apostle writes, “They will know we are Christian by our love.”

I hope this is helpful in terms of one Anglican’s views. Generally, I find that Catholic Christianity is an ocean of mysteries, a great treasure of love beckoning to be explored, engaged with. Often, however, I find that the Roman Catholic Church couldn’t care less.

–Mark

Deo Gratias!
 
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